Who here is fed up???!!!!

[Bill Ault]

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Loome

I suspect that if the folks at the CSA weren't concerned by the fallout, they'd tell you straight up that the biggest single problem facing the association and the development of soccer in Canada is money. Period.

I'd disagree the money is there it is just poorly spent at all levels of the game in this country...

Canadian Soccer's $50 Million Question

Tuesday, 12 December 2006

There has been a lot of talk recently about budgets, in particular the budget of the Canadian Soccer Association, which is estimated at about $13 million with about five of that going to our national team programs. The figures are estimated because in this country trying to pry the true budgets out of clubs, districts, provincial associations and not just the national governing body is akin to stealing the crown jewels – not easily done.

the complete rant is here http://tinyurl.com/yt44zg

[Jeremy Loome]

With 700,000 kids registered across the country in those provincial associations, that works out to about $71 a head and hardly enough to provide "a world class coaching education system for our grassroot coaches etc etc etc"

I agree -- and pointed out already -- that the existing money in Canadian soccer could be better spent. But the picture is much bigger than the 'grassroots'. In fact, our continued focus on a 'grassroots' solution is part of the problem. You don't build an aggressive, well-sponsored sports organization in the modern world via community committee delegation and 'grassroots' thinking. If that sounds mercenary, well, see for reference....mmm, let's see....pretty much ever successful national team on Earth.

We absolutely require massively increased corporate support to get the national team program towhere it needs to be. $50 Million more -- just for the national program -- would have a significant effect, as could, say, $30 million more for the nat program and $20 m towards the development of the professional game. Or whatever combination that aggressive, experienced and successful businesspeople running it believe will work best.

Yes, that would be best paired with a rejigging of bloated soccer bureaucracy, as suggested in that editorial. But think about it: what that effectively suggests is what I was initially saying, which is to make it a more productive and professionally run sport, and less based in the current regimes.

[BigBird]

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Loome

With 700,000 kids registered across the country in those provincial associations, that works out to about $71 a head and hardly enough to provide "a world class coaching education system for our grassroot coaches etc etc etc"

I agree -- and pointed out already -- that the existing money in Canadian soccer could be better spent. But the picture is much bigger than the 'grassroots'. In fact, our continued focus on a 'grassroots' solution is part of the problem. You don't build an aggressive, well-sponsored sports organization in the modern world via community committee delegation and 'grassroots' thinking. If that sounds mercenary, well, see for reference....mmm, let's see....pretty much ever successful national team on Earth.

We absolutely require massively increased corporate support to get the national team program towhere it needs to be. $50 Million more -- just for the national program -- would have a significant effect, as could, say, $30 million more for the nat program and $20 m towards the development of the professional game. Or whatever combination that aggressive, experienced and successful businesspeople running it believe will work best.

Yes, that would be best paired with a rejigging of bloated soccer bureaucracy, as suggested in that editorial. But think about it: what that effectively suggests is what I was initially saying, which is to make it a more productive and professionally run sport, and less based in the current regimes.

I totally agree there are Companies out there the are looking at those exact numbers and if I may say even higher when you get the moms and dads and family into the big picture This is why the potential of advertising and sponsorship is huge,.....in the millions for the CSA or the OSA.

However the problem I think is and falls back to the clubs who do not want to be part of this, and that is the reason the CSA cant do anything about it. And in turn YOU CANT NOT SELL something that you don’t have.

Now just a thought!

Think about for a moment if the CSA had compete and full control of the grass roots, Players Clubs , etc,.....

Then they can sell the list to the Companies because the have the numbers in front of them (NO interferences of the clubs or etc.).

But right now the list is too small and it’s worth nothing to big companies as they won’t invest into nothing of value

Any thoughts just air I'm pushing what do you think....

I think its control and lack of interests of the clubs

[canso]

"the CSA is yet another Canadian sports bureaucracy,"

Bureaucrats! pah! They'll have us all wearing headgear and playing co-ed with nerf balls soon enough!

[Richard]

Yes, the CSA is a bureaucracy by definition but it is an association of provincial bodies which in turn are associations of districts which in turn are associations of clubs which are in turn associations of members. The main issue is that the CSA is too removed from the grassroots membership and there is no direct democracy or accountability. I am not sure how one goes about changing this or even if it is practical to do so.

[Free kick]

If I were to accept that money/ resources are such a big issue, then someone would have to explain to me why there are some third world countries that are ahead of us in the rankings whereby their typical citizen might earn in one month what a Canadian earns in one day or less. Similarly, countries where corruption is rampant and/or their FA is subjected to excessive political medlling or interference. Hardly models of efficiencies. Of course, the soccer bodies like the CSA are bureaucratic but are we to believe that the others are not? We are a much wealthier nation than mexico and every other side in the region save for the US so what is diffenerent between them and us? I'll bet that many of them could only dream of having the budget of our USL teams. Having seen Haiti stay at our Hotel in Maimi during the GC in 2000, I am certain that they would gladly accept having the budget of our USL teams.

I would say the answer is that in Mexico or anywhere else in world, when people talk about their FA they talk about things like coach selection, organizing freindlies and a few other behind the scene administrative issues for only their Mens teams. But you will never hear words like "player development", or "Cohesive plans" used in the same sentence as the FA. Much less, "Woemen teams". Player development and Cohesive plans are what the clubs ( ie.: private interest) are for. Its no different than the way we percieve Hockey Canada or Baskeball Canada. What do they do? and what do we talk about when discussing those organizations like hockey canada, or basketball canada? answer: Their coach selections and scouting as well as well as getting our national teams preped for int'l competition. Thats it!. The player development is all taken care of by the NCAA and other private entities like junior hockey who have a vested interest in developing talent to advance because there is benefit and reward in doing so. These are not entities who think that their role is to be daycare services.

It might be that the most successfull soccer nations in the world are those whereby their FA has less to do. And, the less that bureaucratic oganizations have to do the better off we would be. Sure,more $$$ would be great, but others IMO have done equal or more with less. Its not the amount of money, but rather how its spent! And here is the big problem, I dooubt that you could get consensus on this forum on how to allocated funds/resouces so why should be expect that it would be any easier in the real world of the CSA where there are endless other bodies beneath always wanting more and whinning why there is no one from their soccer juridictions on the national teams. Thats why the future of Canadian soccer rests with TFC and the two USL clubs. And hopefully , two future canadian MLS entries.

[Canuck Oranje]

Once again, let's see who fills the positions currently vacant at the CSA because it will tell a lot about how it sees itself and what it intends to do to move forward.

Money is not as big an issue as many might believe. How the CSA goes about attracting money from Corporate Canada is the bigger issue. The money is there. Someone at the CSA needs to put together the right business proposition to get it.

On the cost of a quality coach, I don't think it is as high as many think. When many think of quality, they think of profile. There are many highly experienced and successful head coaches currently at club level that are paid below what I suspect the CSA would pay. For example, if I have my facts straight (tried to find the article I read in January but couldn't), Muricy Ramalho recently signed a new contract to coach Sao Paulo FC for the equivalent of about $150,000US/year (after adjusting for purchasing power parity). Finding the right coach with the right resume will attract sponsors.

The CSA has to stop attempting to bring European player development models that are based on small geography. In a country the size of Canada, the national association has to partner with local clubs and private interests in player development because it does not have the reach. The CSA should restrict itself to monitoring and administering rather than running training centres (IMHO) because running a complete system of National Training Centres is far too expensive. If financial opportunity is allowed to flow to those performing player development, private interests will be there as it is in junior hockey and in soccer in countries like Brazil.

Focus on closing the gap in development from age 13-14 to 18-19. This is where private interests can help with money. TFC will help in the Toronto area. Many have said over the years (myself included) including people like Eddie Edgar and Edinho (when with the Blizzard in the early 90s) that our 12-13 year olds are competitive with those of other countries. My view is that if we sort out the 13-18 development phase, the younger age groups will sort themselves out.

Some might ask why would anyone get into the player development business in Canada? Well, if they are allowed to take an interest in the players rights as the player develops, there is an opportunity for profit. Player development is where the profit is in countries like Brazil. There are private player development interests already that have noticed Beckham's contract, Hargreaves' market value and David Edgar's goal. If the infrastructure is in place to allow private interests to enter the player development business in Canada, they will be here.

Teams below the top 25 teams in Europe (and some of the other teams in the Top 4 leagues) survive on selling players rights. MLS needs to recognize that too and adjust its thinking to accomodate. Thinking and acting like a Top-4 league when you're not can be costly.

I also agree with DeRosario that the Men's National Team needs to be separated out (but still within the CSA) from the other activities of the CSA. The type of sponsors it can attract would likely be different from those the CSA might want to associate itself with in player development (like Beer Companies). Again the money is there if the right approach is used to get it.

Finally, I think we will know in the next month or so if there has been a change in thinking at the top. If it has, we could see a significant change in fortunes for Canadian soccer. If it remains the same, we could stumble on for a while longer. It should be noted that the most important role of MLSE in all of this is in being a model of financial success for others in the soccer business including the CSA. So far, MLSE has done a masterful job of taking advantage of the Beckham signing and marketing the sport in Toronto. Now like Sao Paulo FC does to the CBF in Brazil, MLSE needs to keep the pressure on the CSA to make them act professionally.

[villus]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

If I were to accept that money/ resources are such a big issue, then someone would have to explain to me why there are some third world countries that are ahead of us in the rankings whereby their typical citizen might earn in one month what a Canadian earns in one day or less. Similarly, countries where corruption is rampant and/or their FA is subjected to excessive political medlling or interference. Hardly models of efficiencies. Of course, the soccer bodies like the CSA are bureaucratic but are we to believe that the others are not? We are a much wealthier nation than mexico and every other side in the region save for the US so what is diffenerent between them and us? I'll bet that many of them could only dream of having the budget of our USL teams. Having seen Haiti stay at our Hotel in Maimi during the GC in 2000, I am certain that they would gladly accept having the budget of our USL teams.

I would say the answer is that in Mexico or anywhere else in world, when people talk about their FA they talk about things like coach selection, organizing freindlies and a few other behind the scene administrative issues for only their Mens teams. But you will never hear words like "player development", or "Cohesive plans" used in the same sentence as the FA. Much less, "Woemen teams". Player development and Cohesive plans are what the clubs ( ie.: private interest) are for. Its no different than the way we percieve Hockey Canada or Baskeball Canada. What do they do? and what do we talk about when discussing those organizations like hockey canada, or basketball canada? answer: Their coach selections and scouting as well as well as getting our national teams preped for int'l competition. Thats it!. The player development is all taken care of by the NCAA and other private entities like junior hockey who have a vested interest in developing talent to advance because there is benefit and reward in doing so. These are not entities who think that their role is to be daycare services.

It might be that the most successfull soccer nations in the world are those whereby their FA has less to do. And, the less that bureaucratic oganizations have to do the better off we would be. Sure,more $$$ would be great, but others IMO have done equal or more with less. Its not the amount of money, but rather how its spent! And here is the big problem, I dooubt that you could get consensus on this forum on how to allocated funds/resouces so why should be expect that it would be any easier in the real world of the CSA where there are endless other bodies beneath always wanting more and whinning why there is no one from their soccer juridictions on the national teams. Thats why the future of Canadian soccer rests with TFC and the two USL clubs. And hopefully , two future canadian MLS entries.

I think this is a rather ignorant comment. Just because a country is so called "third world" does'nt mean that they have the ability/are well structured in their FA. This is bullsht. I am sick and tired of people on this board saying Canada should be better than such and such country because we are more wealthy, get with it people this is soccer not rowing. Some of the best countries from top to bottom for soccer are extremely poor ones, and it is ridiculous to think that they do not have organization in place that allows them to enjoy the success that they do enjoy. Can you explain how some of these european nations that have supposedly great systems, and tons of corporate money behind them still get beat by African, South American and Central American teams???

You may not realize it, but these sort of comments are racist in nature. If a team comes from Africa or SA their FA is portrayed as either corrupt or horribly disorganized, yet this is rarely accused of the european countries. Yes we do need money to make this program better, but do not use that as an excuse to bring down other nations. Just my 2 cents

[brandon]

Free Kick, good post. i agree with you that it's not the csa that is responsible for developing the talent in this country that burden has to fall on the shoulders of the local clubs(such as they are) or the university that the player chooses. neither of these have proven effective but hopefully that will change in the future with the addition of TFC and a few other canadian mls teams. that being said lack of money for the national association is still a massive problem. when you don't have enough money to schedule a full slate of friendly's, provide proper airline tickets for your star players, build decent trainig facilities or enough to cover insurance for the team you have serious problems. and in a country as wealthy as Canada that is not acceptable. this burden lies with the csa and is soley their responsibility. if they can't meet these basic requirements the people in charge have no business being there.

[BigBird]

quote:Originally posted by brandon

Free Kick, good post. i agree with you that it's not the csa that is responsible for developing the talent in this country that burden has to fall on the shoulders of the local clubs(such as they are) or the university that the player chooses. neither of these have proven effective but hopefully that will change in the future with the addition of TFC and a few other canadian mls teams. that being said lack of money for the national association is still a massive problem. when you don't have enough money to schedule a full slate of friendly's, provide proper airline tickets for your star players, build decent trainig facilities or enough to cover insurance for the team you have serious problems. and in a country as wealthy as Canada that is not acceptable. this burden lies with the csa and is soley their responsibility. if they can't meet these basic requirements the people in charge have no business being there.

Brandon,

As I was explaining in my previous post if you cant sell it to sponsor how can you sell it to the clubs..

example in Italy that I'm somewhat sure of but not Europe the Association protects player movement,. Once he is signed on the team under a contract that players belongs to the club.

The only thing that prevents that player from one team to another is a few things, and I will try to list in order of importance

1st Money. Clubs like that when they sell a player to a club

2nd Excellent Talent goes on loan to another team they like this too because it pays a big chunk of income to the club because they paid for every minute that player plays for the team on loan with, and still owns him or atleast his rights.....

3rd Or simple release But only if both parties agree to it. During a closed window of transfer market.

4th The club outright releases you but only a window of transfer market in which case they feel no money in for them so why keep you and pay you to sit on a bench.

Compare to what they do here in TO or ONT or any where else and you will find your answer short and sweet...it wont happen not today and tommorrow because clubs do have any power over the player other then ego and the CSA has no power over the clubs they just keep paying the usual fees because they get nothing for it meaning particapation. They are just a club like hundreds of them

However, turn that around if the clubs where to be support like above mentioned from the CSA now then they can say hum "money" I like this, more money, better coaches, better players, better falcities with showers, etc, etc, etc. better games to watch at the end of it more for the specators more money the pay to come and see a game more money and on and on it goes....

MORE MONEY the better. but what you need to do for this and very important and very critical part THE CLUBS MUST BE IN CONTROL OF THE PLAYER if they only they the clubs can force player movement and transfer, and subsituation privledges, etc etc etc,,, and im sure you can add a few

I tell you what! You get this for me I can assure you that I can find millions of dollars of sponsorship for your mens teams coming out of your yangs yangs in less then 5 years of imply the rules. No offence! Aye just a joke, some people take things to serious here and get quite offensive if you not careful.[8D]

Just do this and give me a cut lets see 3% on the players and 5% for sponsorships.

Just wondering " Does the CSA have change the constitution to impliment this idea? and if so at what cost? and does that mean people jobs will be on the line? for the better or worse?

thought I would just add how can soccer go ahead when they dont even have showers right after a game or practice........

it does not make any sense... to me any how

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by villus

But at NO point what so ever did I infer or make a connection between corruption, horribly organized and SA or African countries. But you did!. So who is stereotyping?. How do you know that I did not having mind European countries when I talked about political interferance etc. and corrpution? How do you know that I wasn't thinking about a country like Australia? where a few years back tons of $$$ just vanished...

yet Oddly, you are kind of in agreement with me when your suggesting that there is more to it than money.

[sparky]

I agree that money is an issue with the CSA. More is better. Look at the difference between Canada and the USA's budget. Having said that,even with all the money that the USA has put in over the last 3 World Cups they are ranked a disappointing 28'th. Coaching and the developement of players might have something to do with it. Players, say U-16 and up don't have the resources or the citizenship to go to Europe or SA to get the experience. In Concacaf we are ranked 9'th(87'th world),not including Mexico and the USA, there are 6 other Central and Carribean countries that are better than us. Certainly our budget must be bigger than some of these countries. How do we think we will ever qualify for the WC again. Any thoughts?

[sparky]

I agree that money is an issue with the CSA. More is better. Look at the difference between Canada and the USA's budget. Having said that,even with all the money that the USA has put in over the last 3 World Cups they are ranked a disappointing 28'th. Coaching and the developement of players might have something to do with it. Players, say U-16 and up don't have the resources or the citizenship to go to Europe or SA to get the experience. In Concacaf we are ranked 9'th(87'th world),not including Mexico and the USA, there are 6 other Central and Carribean countries that are better than us. Certainly our budget must be bigger than some of these countries. How do we think we will ever qualify for the WC again. Any thoughts?

[sparky]

What a difference 2 days can make. We are now ranked 103'rd world wide and 13'th CONCACAF. Its definately a new low.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Canadiense

So what is missing from the CSA?

Is it money?

Is it lack of power?

Lack of competent people?

Lack of effort on projects?

No vision plan?

Great list Canadiense. If I may I would like to add a 6th point and that is:

The way CSA Directors get elected?

quote:

Originally posted by Richard:

The main issue is that the CSA is too removed from the grassroots membership and there is no direct democracy or accountability.

Excellent point Richard.

[BrennanFan]

the only thing the CSA is missing is a bit more money to hire a better coach, and more money for more friendlies. thats it. nothing else will help the team do better on the field. a league of our own would be nice but lets get real. its not like we have a problem producing talent, we produce more than our fair share of talent for a country our size.

I strongly believe if yallop hadn't had his head up his ass 2 yrs ago, we would have gotten to Hex and the 4th spot playoff and maybe the WC, and then nobody would be complaining about anything.