amacpher Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Sicilian neanderthals: 1, corupt eye-tie polica: nil The scary part is that these Catania "supporters" probably weren't even drunk. Afterall, alcohol requires money which requires a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 quote:Originally posted by amacpher Sicilian neanderthals: 1, corupt eye-tie polica: nil The scary part is that these Catania "supporters" probably weren't even drunk. Afterall, alcohol requires money which requires a job. This post is racist and should be struck off the board. Apart from being so stupid it is embarrassing to the generally intelligent Voyaguers forum. Very hard evidence of violence amongst football fans who also have jobs does exist. Away travellers for England games in the France World Cup were not homeless, but still had time to trash Marseille and treat residents like dogs. Feyenoord travellers to France recently were not on the dole. Had a lot to do with politics in England or Holland at the time? With economics? Doubt it. Otherwise you would not have crowd problems in Sweden, Holland, Scotland, Germany, England, pretty well everywhere at some time or other, including North America, and a lot, and in a lot of sports. Along with violence in poorer parts of the world as well. We had all-out brawls in my comfortable middle class Vancouver teen years after high school basketball games. Discuss our ethnicity or social status as the cause and get a prize: a bobble-head representing a -get this- cracker jack sociologist. Then take your prize, go home, and leave us alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. This post is racist and should be struck off the board. Apart from being so stupid it is embarrassing to the generally intelligent Voyaguers forum. Very hard evidence of violence amongst football fans who also have jobs does exist. Away travellers for England games in the France World Cup were not homeless, but still had time to trash Marseille and treat residents like dogs. Well, safe to say those England supporters were drunk out of their skull. And England has done alot to curb violence in their game over the past 20 years. Can't say the same for Italy now can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. This post is racist and should be struck off the board. Apart from being so stupid it is embarrassing to the generally intelligent Voyaguers forum. That was sure predictable. You make racist comments about Scandanavians, characterizing them all by the actions of two men. Then you try to excuse yourself with a lame, nonsensical claim that your comments were not racist but rather sociological. Yet two days later you are accusing other posters of racism like usual. First syllable rhymes with lipo and second rhymes with wit and s-hit. Hooligan problems resulting in a death is the logical consequence of what has been happening in Italian soccer for some time now. There have been numerous and steadily worsening problems with hooligan violence and racism by fans and players. These incidents have repeatedly been dealt with very lightly if at all and thus keep getting worse. The Italian league and federation only have themselves to blame though kudos to them for a strong reaction this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Grizzly is right....the hooliganism problem in Italy is a problem that just won't go away because the Italian federation and the politicians who could pass laws to curtail it just put their head in the sand and try to pretend it doesn't exist, until, of course, a cop dies. Now they are talking a good game but until they start throwing the leaders of the Ultra groups in prison, I won't believe it. lets see if they wipe out next week's match schedule as well...if they do, maybe I will believe they are serious. Significant time and planning are needed to actually put a real plan in place to start controlling this embarrassing behaviour. The Ultra groups in Italy are very strong, VERY influential and get away with stuff that would not happen elsewhere. They are organized criminals, plain and simple. None of what happened at Catania the other day was an accident. From what I have read in the Italian papers, this violence was predicted in advance, which is why they moved the game from Sunday in the first place. by the way, let's not think that Hooliganism doesn't exist anymore in England. It's just better organized now. The "firms" still battle each other, just not necessarily inside/outside the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly That was sure predictable. You make racist comments about Scandanavians, characterizing them all by the actions of two men. Then you try to excuse yourself with a lame, nonsensical claim that your comments were not racist but rather sociological. Yet two days later you are accusing other posters of racism like usual. First syllable rhymes with lipo and second rhymes with wit and s-hit. Hooligan problems resulting in a death is the logical consequence of what has been happening in Italian soccer for some time now. There have been numerous and steadily worsening problems with hooligan violence and racism by fans and players. These incidents have repeatedly been dealt with very lightly if at all and thus keep getting worse. The Italian league and federation only have themselves to blame though kudos to them for a strong reaction this time. Okay, my comments about the Swedes were racist. I admit it, those Swedes are a nightmare. And not just those two assholes, there are tons of them out there. I have a racial dislike for them. It is embarrassing for all Barça fans like me to have to admit that one of their kind actually helped us win Champions last year, I feel like Le Pen with those non-French guys on Les Bleus. I am inconsistent. Not like guys like you who end up defending the truly insulting posts of racists and go beserk if anyone calls you on it. If you can't see the difference between calling the Swedes running UEFA insensitive in a typically Swedish way when a few hundred people were blown up in Madrid (admittedly unfair to a lot of Swedes, I admit), and explaining a police death in Sicily in insulting terms of the Mafia and unemployment, that is your problem though. But everyone here has their own agenda and yours is whitewashing in the face of real intolerance so you can have yours and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Its nice to see amacpher show everyone what a prejudiced moron he is. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. [brIf you can't see the difference between calling the Swedes running UEFA insensitive in a typically Swedish way when a few hundred people were blown up in Madrid (admittedly unfair to a lot of Swedes, I admit), and explaining a police death in Sicily in insulting terms of the Mafia and unemployment, that is your problem though. But everyone here has their own agenda and yours is whitewashing in the face of real intolerance so you can have yours and eat it too. These kind of planned riots are born out of stupidity and boredom. Common traits for the unemployed. Of course, if I was writing about, say, unemployed scousers in the Kop nobody would have a problem with what I wrote (even though it would probably have been less true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forza_Italia Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 amacpher just likes to tease Italians because he is a jealous person. his posts only include racist comments towards Italians but I am sure he is too much of a coward to say it to someones face which is why he hides behind his computer desk. AS for Grizs point. I agree that something harsh was the right move to make seeing how this ongoing problem needs to be reactified ASAP. Althought myself personally would have loved to watch Italy play Romania tomorrow if it wasnt cancelled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid-Tone Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 quote:Originally posted by amacpher Well, safe to say those England supporters were drunk out of their skull. And England has done alot to curb violence in their game over the past 20 years. english hooligans actually did quite a bit of damage in the Algarve region during euro 2004. as far as i'm concerned, whether or not they were drunk is immaterial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Acid-Tone english hooligans actually did quite a bit of damage in the Algarve region during euro 2004. as far as i'm concerned, whether or not they were drunk is immaterial. They did SOME damage. Not alot. and the fact that you have to go back nearly 3 years to find an incident 1% as bad as what happened, say, in Sicily last week, shows that the English have cut-down on their hooliganism alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Spaulding Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I seem to remember reading not long ago on some of the English news sites that British Soccer Hooliganism is having a resurgence, but has moved away from the games and stadiums and doesn't get on television any more. Also still has links to organized crime and far right political partys. And that the older guys from the last round are recruiting and mentoring the new younger hooligans. Not drunks, not immigrants, not unmeployed, young white working poor in other words. The Headhunters are still there, but in theNew Labour environment, nobody shows them on tv, so it's not a problem. But I don't think my memory is what it once was, so maybe I've gotten it mixed up:) Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Captain Spaulding I seem to remember reading not long ago on some of the English news sites that British Soccer Hooliganism is having a resurgence, but has moved away from the games and stadiums and doesn't get on television any more. Also still has links to organized crime and far right political partys. And that the older guys from the last round are recruiting and mentoring the new younger hooligans. Not drunks, not immigrants, not unmeployed, young white working poor in other words. The Headhunters are still there, but in theNew Labour environment, nobody shows them on tv, so it's not a problem. But I don't think my memory is what it once was, so maybe I've gotten it mixed up:) Am I wrong? Maybe. But the question then is, at what point is it no longer considered football hooliganism? If the violence doesn't occur near the stadiums and doesn't affect the matches, then its not really a big problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirio Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 guys, I live in Rome and went regularly to the stadium to see games...until about 5 years ago.Here people are mainly afraid to go the the stadium, the flares,spits,punches,chains,knifes and all the rest...Let me tell you,we "normal" people ARE GETTING TIRED of pro soccer!!Why? Cocaine, bribe scandals, doping, players tangled in all kind of scandals, prostitutes,poor play, lack of national pride, too much money and a TON of other things!!From Buffon buying his high school diploma and inquired from the police for betting into pro soccer,Juventus players saying that they don't remember what the docs injected them, hell, they trusted the docs!MoggiGate and all that stuff,teams going bankrupt (Como,Parma,Ancona..), Chinaglia trying to bring east european mafia in soccer, (as we don't already have tons of it..), Padovano and Moriero, former Juve and Inter players arrested for importing cocaine and stolen cars...do you want me to continue? Coaches fighting better than Lennox Lewis..That's why I have fun with the MLS, USL..they are light years away from serie A..in the right direction.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Its funny how the viewpoint of a real Italian who lives in Rome is about 173 degrees different from the defensive views taken by 8th generation Italians living in Vancouver and Toronto. I wonder which one I should believe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 quote:Originally posted by amacpher Its funny how the viewpoint of a real Italian who lives in Rome is about 173 degrees different from the defensive views taken by 8th generation Italians living in Vancouver and Toronto. I wonder which one I should believe... It doesn't change the fact that your a prejudiced something or other though. And for the record, I agree 100% with Sirio's post. <mod> Edited by mod </mod> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Sirio's post is 100% accurate. I just saw a news report that says that Serie A and Serie B matches will resume this weekend, but many games will be played behind closed doors until teams meet a series of conditions and stadiums are brought up to standards. some of the more interesting elements of the government's demands are: - no more "bloc" sales of tickets to away fans (I guess that means away fans supporters sections will be abolished). - teams must end all financial association with Ultra groups - all stadiums must be privatized so teams can be held responsible for bringing them up to code rather than cash-strapped local governments. There were some other things about names on tickets, better security,etc... Apparently only 4 games will have fans in the stadium this weekend and only home fans will be allowed. No away fans at all this weekend. All the other games in Serie A will be played in front of empty stadiums, including the AC match at the San Siro It's likely all Serie B matches will be played in empty stadiums as well because those stadiums tend to be even less up to code. I applaud the government's new rules. I am just curious to see if they will stick to their guns. There will be a ton of pressure on them to change their minds. I am sure Berlusconi is going nuts today. First he loses an election to Prodi and now Prodi makes him play a home game in an empty stadium AND forces him to buy at least a share of the San Siro....wow...Pay Per View prices in Italy are going to go up to pay for all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I hope they really do follow through on these proposals. But the cynic in me will believe it when it really happens. There are already clubs threatening to strike over the new rules. Which is a shame. The Serie A and B clubs are just going to have to deal with the fact that proper security will have to be a part of the business from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack It doesn't change the fact that your a something or other though. <mod> Edited by Mod:( </mod> Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 <Mod> Okay, let us just calm down a bit here. There may be some life left in this topic so lets all try to keep things on a simmer at best. NO BOILING OVER. That is all. Cheeta </Mod> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 quote:Originally posted by VPjr- teams must end all financial association with Ultra groups One would think that would be forbidden already but this shows how bad things have become in Italian soccer. While there are other countries that have hooligan problems and some teams do tolerate hooligan groups for ticket revenue there are few countries where the hooligans are so integrated into the soccer hierarchy. It is pretty common for the head of an Italian team's hooligan group to be a friend/associate of the team's president. While there are certainly still incidents of hooliganism in England, no one can deny that the English FA has made a serious and effective effort to reduce hooliganism. The Italian soccer authorities have in the meantime not only tolerated hooliganism but to a large part encouraged it. The strange thing is is that hooliganism is far more integrated into British culture than Italian, ie. if you see a bunch of drunken English young males in any European city you can almost be guaranteed that there will be problems while a similar group of Italians will usually be far more peaceful. Yet the irresponsible behaviour of the Italian clubs and soccer authorities have let this group of people take over the Italian game whereas the English authorities have acted far more responsibly. The Italian politicians will have to be careful though not to overreact and damage the clubs so much that the league is significantly weakened. Some of these measure could financially cripple these clubs to the point where they can no longer pay their player's wages and can no longer afford top players. The result could be that the Italian league would no longer be a big 4 league. The politicians will have to keep in mind that the goal is to reform Italian soccer not destroy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Spaulding Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Given the degree of integration between Italian Ultras and the Right-Wing parties and the slim hold on power that Prodi has, I would expect that there will be a flurry of activity during the period of shock and outrage, followed by a very cautious attempt to curb the most obvious and least powerful elements. Somehow, I can't see AC Milan or Lazio getting treated harshly, but Catania might, since they're newcomers to Serie A, and obviously culpable in this affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirio Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Hello everyone,I'm back again!! I will tell you how the ULTRAS groups work: the leaders of these groups pull the strings on the weak people of the group, so you know, the more people you control, the more power you have!!!They then go up to a club president, usually using the players,and threat them that if will not give them 20 thousand or more euros,or HUNDREDS of free tickets, rides with the team on their flight, or the rights on the marchandising business(LAZIO CASE!) the will make the field disqualify,cause riots,causing something like 1 million EUROS of loss on each home game...And why do you think that the usually wave fascists and nazi flags and chores?Because since 1952 with the law number 20,comma 645,EVERYTHING that concerns Fascism or Nazism is AGAINST the law,and it will be severely prosecuted under penal law...GET IT? ask money=no money=flares+fascists flags=field disqualified=MILLIONS OF EURO LOSS...In fact, these ULTRA leaders,don't have a regular job,they do this for living!!I used to train in my old gym with a former SS LAZIO Ultra leader,one hell of a criminal..he was in first row when Chinaglia wanted to take Lazio president's desk..because he then would have had many privilege$$$..now he's in jail.. GO OTTAWA INTREPIDS GO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 quote:Originally posted by sirio Hello everyone,I'm back again!! I will tell you how the ULTRAS groups work: the leaders of these groups pull the strings on the weak people of the group, so you know, the more people you control, the more power you have!!!They then go up to a club president, usually using the players,and threat them that if will not give them 20 thousand or more euros,or HUNDREDS of free tickets, rides with the team on their flight, or the rights on the marchandising business(LAZIO CASE!) the will make the field disqualify,cause riots,causing something like 1 million EUROS of loss on each home game...And why do you think that the usually wave fascists and nazi flags and chores?Because since 1952 with the law number 20,comma 645,EVERYTHING that concerns Fascism or Nazism is AGAINST the law,and it will be severely prosecuted under penal law...GET IT? ask money=no money=flares+fascists flags=field disqualified=MILLIONS OF EURO LOSS...In fact, these ULTRA leaders,don't have a regular job,they do this for living!!I used to train in my old gym with a former SS LAZIO Ultra leader,one hell of a criminal..he was in first row when Chinaglia wanted to take Lazio president's desk..because he then would have had many privilege$$$..now he's in jail.. GO OTTAWA INTREPIDS GO!!! This was more or less normal practice in Spain until recently. I am not saying that there is pure criminality, but it is true that club boards pander to radical groups, who often have close relationships or else intimidate both boards and players. They keep their stuff in lockers in the stadiums, they get privileges to travel and funding for it, they often pressure other supporter sections that are less radical. Such sections seem to have existed in Spain at the two Madrid teams, both in Barcelona, Celta Vigo for example. At others they are less defined but are there, often doing racist chanting, like at Zaragoza or Getafe. Teams in the south seem to be okay, in Valencia too, in the Basque country. Things have changed somewhat lately, though just last weekend Capello came out praising the RMadrid Ultra Surs after their embarrassing loss, just because they were the only ones who were not upset about it and were loud as usual. The group is extreme right, fascist even. At Barça the new president decided he wanted the radical Boixos Nois out, that upset them and they ended up threatening his family, death threats, which was the last straw. Then they discoverd they were doing cheap bullying for drug rings, led even by a former security person at Camp Nou. Now the president and most fans are isolating them, and fortunately there are a few other supporter groups in the stadium, which in fact is noisier than I can ever remember, instead of that one focus there are at least three other sections constantly chanting. I am not anti-Espanyol as most Barça supporters are, but my son is. I took him to Villareal, three hours south, to watch Riquelme and Forlan vs. Espanyol, and waiting for tickets the Espanyol fans were singing Nazi songs, Heil Hitler and all that. In the stadium they were equally disgraceful, mixing it as usual with insults against Barça. My boy could not handle that, I try to convince him it is a minority, and I in fact go to their games occasionally, but he is totally turned off that club because of the radicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirio Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Exactly Jeffrey S.!! In the beginning of January I was at the stadium for the Atletico Madrid-Terragona, I was on vacation with my girlfriend, and you know what? Watching the game in a peaceful stadium was fantastic,me and my girl friend really enjoyed it!Now she wants to go to ROMA-Inter TIM Cup final, but I'm not really convinced..past experiences... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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