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Study: Italian soccer losing support


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PARIS (Reuters) -- Italian soccer is losing ground to its European rivals with aging stadiums, problem terraces and a television free-for-all driving supporters away, a study of European leagues published on Tuesday has concluded.

While big Italian clubs such as Juventus and AC Milan benefit from huge individually-negotiated television revenue deals and continue to do well in UEFA competitions and rankings, their performance masks a deeper malaise, the study's authors said.

"Italy's stadiums are totally decrepit...there's a big imbalance in television rights...I'm pretty pessimistic unless there's a rethink," said Philippe Piola, head of entertainment studies at the Euromed business school in Marseille and co-author of the report with Ineum management consultants in Paris.

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I think the state of Serie A is very sad but very predictable. The Italian economy is a mess, many of Italy's largest corporations are struggling and the fans are still royally pissed off about the scandal, even though it's not exactly a shock that there would be an influence peddling scandal in Italy since that is basically how the whole country operates. It's a wonderful but corrupt country.

Because of the economic woes of the country in general and general disinterest in the game right now, there is not a lot of support for improving the quality of the stadiums in most regions. Torino got a new stadium for the Olympics but that is probably the only new stadium you will see in Italy for quite a while.

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Guest Jeffery S.

I am going to have a go at this, but someone with better knowledge of Italy might want to correct me.

I can think of maybe three or four factors in Italy.

First may be a simple let-down after the euphoria of the World Cup. Not helped by having key sides out of contention because of the influence peddling with refs sanctions, or out of the Serie A.

Longer term problems could be:

1) Italian owners are old school, many are old industrial money, few if any are foreigners, not too much new money in there throwing money into sides in non-traditional calcio regions. New owners and new money usually will tap into new markets, will be more creative in marketing, and perhaps invest in a different type of game. If they succeed then they end up influencing the rest of the league. I think in England and in Spain, for example, ownership is more dynamic, and more tied to changing economies.

2) Connected is demography. I think a lot of the big sides have traditional fan bases, but I am not sure those are being renewed. The teams have identities based on the old idea of what the club represents, and that may not be as interesting for new generations of potential fans.

3) Or, perhaps in contrast, or perhaps related, there are few areas of Italy that could be considered to be on the rise, with better economies, where football could have a symbolic value. I am thinking of the region of the south of Valencia and Murcia, and the adjacent Almeria province of Andalucia, where there is a very speculative new money economy, with food production and packaging, but also tourism, retirement homes from northern Europeans, real estate speculation, all creating a new power centre for clubs. Politicians and new rich want to use the game to create a name for themselves, and the result is a great number of strong clubs, now in 2nd tier but occasionally in first division, as well as money going into newer sports like Futsal. This sort of demographic, regional dynamic is good for generating new interest in the game, however dubious the sources of the wealth are.

4- I think the fan base is still excessively male in Italy, if women and families do not identify with clubs and feel comfortable going to games, you are going to have problems keeping the interest alive for new generations of fans. Folks are looking for a different experience at the stadium, instead of something that has that smell of an older, outdated sort of football fan.

Pure speculation all of this.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

First may be a simple let-down after the euphoria of the World Cup. Not helped by having key sides out of contention because of the influence peddling with refs sanctions, or out of the Serie A.

While a little post WC letdown is inevitable, my dad and his mates like to brag that after the 1982 WC, Serie A enjoyed 15-20 years as the "best" league in Europe and enjoyed excellent fan support. That's debatable in my opinion.

In speaking to some of my relatives back in Italy, a lot of people feel betrayed by the big clubs. Italians know that their political system is corrupt but it's so corrupt that it's impossible to really clean it up. However, they feel that they can do something about corruption in soccer and that is to stay away and not spend money. I am also told that many young Italians have decided to "quit" their traditional favorite teams and are now supporting their local clubs, even if they are not in Serie A. I think that might be fashionable decision but I doubt it will last.

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Longer term problems could be:

1) Italian owners are old school, many are old industrial money, few if any are foreigners, not too much new money in there throwing money into sides in non-traditional calcio regions. New owners and new money usually will tap into new markets, will be more creative in marketing, and perhaps invest in a different type of game. If they succeed then they end up influencing the rest of the league. I think in England and in Spain, for example, ownership is more dynamic, and more tied to changing economies.

there is definitely a lot of old money involved in Serie A (not sure if there is any significant foreign money in Serie A, although Mohamar Gadafi of Libya is a minority owner of Juve) and the reality is that it's an old boys club at the top. The New money, by and large, can't be bothered to play that game. In fact, it's hard to become "New Money" in Italy because the whole country is basically run as a country club to ensure that the rich get richer and power is tightly controlled so the deck is stacked against them. New ownership in Serie A is desperately needed but I am not confident that rich foreigners will look to get involved in Italian soccer because the problems are too deep rooted. It takes more than money to fix them. There are better opportunities available elsewhere in Europe.

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

3) Or, perhaps in contrast, or perhaps related, there are few areas of Italy that could be considered to be on the rise, with better economies, where football could have a symbolic value.

Economically, Italy is going through a diffiuclt time as they come to grips with the reality the old economy that drove Italy for 50+ years is disappearing quickly because of the emergence of China, etc... Times are tough. Money is tight for the average Italian. The switch to the Euro was a major shock to the average Italian and seriously impacted their disposable income. Soccer is a luxury now, especially since the price to watch games is very high, as is the cost of most team merchandise.

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

4- I think the fan base is still excessively male in Italy, if women and families do not identify with clubs and feel comfortable going to games, you are going to have problems keeping the interest alive for new generations of fans. Folks are looking for a different experience at the stadium, instead of something that has that smell of an older, outdated sort of football fan.

Soccer in Italy is definitely a boy's club and women are not welcomed warmly. However, I don't know how much this impacts fan support because I have always felt that one of reasons men it Italy love their soccer so much is because it is a great excuse to get away from the family/work responsibilities. They don't want the ladies and kids around. Maybe the new generation doesn't share that sentiment.

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Guest Jeffery S.

Thanks for that, as I was really reaching without real knowledge of the situation. But I think that if the system if fair and open and not corrupt new money will find it attractive.

And often new money tries new things, like bringing in a different type of player, or breaking with ingrained playing styles (excessively defensive is what is said, not sure stats really corroborate this, but you have to look at Italian or Italy trained defenders in a country like Spain and they generally do terribly, they are so used to tight defensive systems and stepping back into a shell that they can't handle the one on ones, the open play, the spaces that have to be covered in more attacking Spanish style. Cannavaro is a good example, a mess for Madrid this year. I think Thuram looks mediocre for Barça.

What I am saying is that new money might try to win or get results in a different way, breaking with national inertias to try to get a name or make a difference.

As for fan base, I also wonder if immigrants go to games in Italy. In general, as immigrants in southern Europe are less consolidated economically, thus poorer, they may take longer to get out to games. Sure, in England fans demographics are not overly favourable to non-whites, I have been a bit surprised by the homogeneity of fans I have seen in English stadiums. But at least you see more kids and moms and young women out together than even 10 years ago, so that is a sign of a changing fan base. In Spain too you see a lot of women, of all ages, you see nuns at games in Sevilla of all things, at Barça there are a lot of grannies and middle-aged middle class ladies, plus little girls. These are all factors that help the game evolve with the reality of societal change, and I am not sure that these changes are happening in Italy.

Hell, if you look at games in Turkey, you are seeing quite a lot of young -and rather attractive- women in the stands, I am sure a lot more than even a few years ago.

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Serie A used to be the top league in the world. I remember as little as 5-7 years ago, when Serie A had seven top teams capable of competing at the top stage in Europe (Juve, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina). What happened?

The scandal can't help. But I think it started before then. The big clubs are not developing talent like they used to. Look at Milan, they created the national team of the early 90's. At one time, they developed the entire starting back four for the national team (Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta, Panucci). Now, The big clubs simply go and poach the talent.

Also, there is far too much reliance on foreign talent. As much as I detest Man Utd, I love how much English talent they have, and how they've developed quality players. Who has Juventus/Inter/Milan brought through their youth system in the last seven years? Nadda.

The owners are dinosaurs - Berlusconi... need I say more?. Whereas England and Spain have grown and adapted and continually improved, Italy refused.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Thanks for that, as I was really reaching without real knowledge of the situation. But I think that if the system if fair and open and not corrupt new money will find it attractive.

And often new money tries new things, like bringing in a different type of player, or breaking with ingrained playing styles (excessively defensive is what is said, not sure stats really corroborate this, but you have to look at Italian or Italy trained defenders in a country like Spain and they generally do terribly, they are so used to tight defensive systems and stepping back into a shell that they can't handle the one on ones, the open play, the spaces that have to be covered in more attacking Spanish style. Cannavaro is a good example, a mess for Madrid this year. I think Thuram looks mediocre for Barça.

What I am saying is that new money might try to win or get results in a different way, breaking with national inertias to try to get a name or make a difference.

As for fan base, I also wonder if immigrants go to games in Italy. In general, as immigrants in southern Europe are less consolidated economically, thus poorer, they may take longer to get out to games. Sure, in England fans demographics are not overly favourable to non-whites, I have been a bit surprised by the homogeneity of fans I have seen in English stadiums. But at least you see more kids and moms and young women out together than even 10 years ago, so that is a sign of a changing fan base. In Spain too you see a lot of women, of all ages, you see nuns at games in Sevilla of all things, at Barça there are a lot of grannies and middle-aged middle class ladies, plus little girls. These are all factors that help the game evolve with the reality of societal change, and I am not sure that these changes are happening in Italy.

Hell, if you look at games in Turkey, you are seeing quite a lot of young -and rather attractive- women in the stands, I am sure a lot more than even a few years ago.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Inter Milan illustrates the crapness of the serie "A" at the moment. Only dropped 6 points all season, yet is their team really any better than the 4th-best teams in England and Spain? Of course not...

How can you say that?

They have some of the best talent in the World, and one of the best coaches.

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quote:Originally posted by RJB

Serie A used to be the top league in the world. I remember as little as 5-7 years ago, when Serie A had seven top teams capable of competing at the top stage in Europe (Juve, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina). What happened?

The scandal can't help. But I think it started before then. The big clubs are not developing talent like they used to. Look at Milan, they created the national team of the early 90's. At one time, they developed the entire starting back four for the national team (Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta, Panucci). Now, The big clubs simply go and poach the talent.

Also, there is far too much reliance on foreign talent. As much as I detest Man Utd, I love how much English talent they have, and how they've developed quality players. Who has Juventus/Inter/Milan brought through their youth system in the last seven years? Nadda.

The owners are dinosaurs - Berlusconi... need I say more?. Whereas England and Spain have grown and adapted and continually improved, Italy refused.

There are so many factors behind the slow but steady erosion to the quality of Serie A and you have touched on the biggest and most significant.

One major factor that can't be ignored is Italian arrogance. The typical Italian soccer fan just assumes that their league is the best because it WAS</u> the best for many years. In some ways, Italians are a bit like Americans (with better food, clothes and architecture). They dont travel much outside their country (especially compared to many Europeans from the more affluent neighbouring nations), they have a fairly insular view of the world around them and love to cling to the notion of their own superiority. I know because I have alot of Italian family and they drive me nuts with their insistence of the superiority of all things Italian. I love the country but I can see its warts but I am in the minority.

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quote:Originally posted by RJB

How can you say that?

They have some of the best talent in the World, and one of the best coaches.

They are a strong squad on paper and have dominated Italy but I have my doubts that this team will go far in Champions League. I don't think they have faced enough of a challenge in Serie A to be ready for a serious test from a European powerhouse. Time will tell. I do believe that they have one of the better coaches in the world and that should help alot.

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Spain and England should try to learn from Italy. The decline of Serie A should be a warning to all the big clubs in those two nations who are more concerned about their own greed than the overall good of the game. At this moment, Italy has 3 big clubs that have the spending power to compete for the Serie A and the Champions League: Inter Milan, AC Milan (I realize they suck this year, but they'll be back) and Juventus (they'll also be back at the top, there is no doubting this). Serie A has essentially become the Bundesliga with 3 power house teams, instead of one.

In the 90's, the Serie A was great because there where more than 3 great clubs. Hell, they were called the "Seven Sisters" : Inter Milan, AC Milan, Juventus, Lazio, Roma, Fiorentina and Parma. At the beginning of each season each of these teams were considered contenders. But after the seasons that Lazio and Roma won the titles things changed. I personally think the true demise started when Lazio, Parma and Fiorentina could no longer afford to compete with the Big 3. Roma has had glimpses of greatness since their title, but they don't have the squad depth that the Big 3 can afford. Soon the league became a two-horse race every year (it should have been three teams battling, but Inter's incompetence is legendary).

I don't see this changing either. The system is designed in a way that the rich will continue to get rich. The league will continue to be led by 3 teams who will have great following no matter what while the rest of the league rots.

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Guest Jeffery S.

I think it is unfair to criticize Italians for being insular. My experience is that they are no more so than most other European nations: England is terribly insular, as is Spain, on a football level. Fans have a distorted idea of the importance of their league and their football in both. Neither win with their national team even half of what the Italians do, who also have a number of sides playing well and winning in Europe.

The problem is not a general question about what Italians are like, it is broader and has to do with the specifics of the game, the league, the clubs, how money flows. And maybe demographics and economics.

I would like to know if some of the rising sides in Italy which we have not heard much of, like Livorno or Messina, represent a new model of club, new money, a fresh way of seeing things.

I think the reference might be a club like Villareal, in a small town, with a wealthy local owner (Roig is in ceramics) with smart ideas, creative signing (South Americans, but recently the Dane Tomasson), building a good youth system. Don't know if Wigan could become the English reference. In Italy we have seen an inkling of new powers, Parma was one, Chievo another, neither really consolidated a new model though. So I am curious: which club in Italy might be the one to force the others to rethink with its results and fans and image: with a dynamic owner, a new fan base, representative of an economic boom in its particular region?

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In the end, the bottom line is money. And right now the EPL has a lot more of it.

As for potential teams to rise up, the most obvious is Palermo. With the number of Sicilians around the world, they have the potential fan base to be a big international club. The team is based on good young talent (not really developed by the club though) with a sprinkling of decent veterans. They are currently 3rd in Serie A and where battling at the top earlier in the season. Of course they eventually did tail off.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

amacpher has an anti-Italian bias that makes him a little stupid sometimes. It's not even worth discussing the matter with him because of that.

Yet, haven't Inter dropped more points in 6 European matches this season than in their 21 Serie "A" matches? That says all you need to know.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Yet, haven't Inter dropped more points in 6 European matches this season than in their 21 Serie "A" matches? That says all you need to know.

These are just meaningless stats.

Inter still have a squad full of World Class talent. Only Chelsea can match them in terms of talent at each position.

The truely pathetic thing about Inter is that they are not as dominant as they should be.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

These are just meaningless stats.

Inter still have a squad full of World Class talent. Only Chelsea can match them in terms of talent at each position.

The truely pathetic thing about Inter is that they are not as dominant as they should be.

Well, that's all very subjective.

Fact is, even if a great team drops only 6 points in 21 games (while breezing through the Coppa Italia as well), it says something about their competition. It's like Ajax 10-15 years ago. Sure they had a great team, but they don't go 30-3-1 (or whatever) if they were playing in a top league. Just like neither Barca or Chelsea did last year.

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Guest Jeffery S.

Considering Inter has been underperforming with a good to great squad on paper for about 15 years, or more, let them overperform for once in a blue moon, with their direct rivals sanctioned for the reffing scandal, without having to draw huge conclusions from the situation. For once a good year at Inter.

Spain is incredibly competitive this year, mostly because the average to weak teams are better than their counterparts in other strong leagues and take points away from the top sides. Right now, with form Barça is in, even though leading the league, I would say we are not as good as Man U and about the same as Inter. We are going to have problems taking out Liverpool in Champions, unless we turn things around drastically. That is the leader of Spain I am talking about.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

Wow. A cop is killed in rioting during the Catania-Palermo match today, suspending all Serie A and B matches indefinitely.

Smooth move, Italy. Smooth.

Terrible news, but somehow I think it won't be enough to shake things up.

Sounds like after losing at home the Catania fans went at the police outside the stadium. I have read reports that someone threw a "letter bomb", meaning a small size bomb, that killed the 38 year old cop. Another is in serious condition in hospital and there are a hundred injured.

All games in Italy suspended, including last level of youth divisions, U-17. Also going to cancel the home friendly vs. Romania, meaning this weekend and midweek next for sure.

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wow...the death of that officer is truly tragic news. I will never fully understand why these ultra groups resort to these types of violent acts. I hate to see my team lose but I won't throw a bomb at police.

To answer the question about small, up and coming clubs, one team I was going to mention was Catania. They have a strong owner, a good sponsor and a pretty decent squad at the moment. However, it's unlikely they could ever compete with the big 3. However, today's tragedy might spell major trouble for Catania...here is a translated quote from the team's owner in the aftermath of the death of the policeman:

"Catania chairman and owner Antonino Pulvirenti announced his willingness to leave the football world, stating it was not possible to go on making football in Catania"

Another club that looks like it might become a perennial contender for a UEFA Cup entry is Udinese. They are a talented squad but, again, lack the funds to compete with the big boys.

I am curious to see if Fiorentina is able to return to the top of Serie A in the next couple of years. The owner has a lot of money so, if he decides to lose money to try to compete for a scudetto, he might try to build a real winner.

As much as I hate Inter, they will probably be an even better club next year. It's the 100 year anniversary and their owner has publicly stated in the Italian media that he will pull out all the stops to win everything in the 07-08 season (Serie A and Champions League).

Juve will be back strong next year too but might need 1 full year back in Serie A for their next generation of young talent to adapt to the pace and quality of Serie A competition. Juve will likely make a push for the title in the 08-09 season. I predict a top 5 finish at best for 07-08 if they make it back up.

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