Free kick Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 quote:Originally posted by L.T. I've heard the number 14,000 thrown around as a season ticket cap... That would suggest to me that this team will be around for a long while. It has far supassed my best case expactations. If you remove the number of roughly 2600 as a result of the David Beckham spike. And, let's assume that there are about 10-20% who are very fairweather and fickle who dont renew after the first season, You would still have a very solid base to operate profitably. if you do the match, 14K averages very roughly to approximately 5Mill$ in revenues. The cap is only 2.1Mill$. We haven't even started talking about other ancillary revenues. As I always said, all you you need to make pro soccer worthwhile is a 5,000 seasons tickets base. Secondly, By the sounds of it, the $$$ netted BMO for the naming rights may have covered MLSEL investment in the stadium as well as the exapnsion fee. What this all means is that they are operating at level way above the league since the cap is at only 2.1Mill$. To sustain themselves they would require an increase in cap amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Observer Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 If you look at the TFC website, its pretty clear that most of season's tickets have been sold in the cheap seats (in fact most are sold out now other than the visitor's section which I assume is not on sale). Also, the most expensive block is sold out which would imply corporate season tickets. The cheap seats are between $15 to $28 per ticket; the seats they still have left are between $48 to $60. I would suspect in future years they would like to convert some of those in the cheap seats to more expensive season tickets as they would more than double their revenue there. It will be interesting to see whether on certain games they have big empty gaps in the middle of the crowd with the fringes of the stadium full. If so, that may impact the atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I know 4 or 5 people who are looking at seasons tickets and are not at all phased by the "expensive tickets" because they still cost about the same as a pair of decent 7-game packs for the raptors....its still a great deal. I am sure that all the "expensive" seats will be filled for most games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAS Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick That would suggest to me that this team will be around for a long while. It has far supassed my best case expactations. If you remove the number of roughly 2600 as a result of the David Beckham spike. And, let's assume that there are about 10-20% who are very fairweather and fickle who dont renew after the first season, You would still have a very solid base to operate profitably. if you do the match, 14K averages very roughly to approximately 5Mill$ in revenues. The cap is only 2.1Mill$. We haven't even started talking about other ancillary revenues. As I always said, all you you need to make pro soccer worthwhile is a 5,000 seasons tickets base. I agree that TFC looks fairly healthly and will last (they didn't even need the Beckham signing - many of those post-signing sales would have occurred anyways), but perhaps not quite as good as it seems. I do think there could be a drop-off next year. Not only would that be a normal post-expansion year situation, but MLSE really discounted these tickets to drive demand. I think there will be price increases for next year's tickets in the high demand sections that were the first to sell out. This year was about getting local fans hooked onto the product, and measuring market demand/price points. Next year is when fans will start to pay prices that are closer to what fans in the other MLS cities are paying. For all the work done by U-Sector and Red Patch Brigade, their contribution to overall revenue is not as significant as one would imagine. All the ridiculously cheap $200 seats they bought in sections 113 and 112 respectively have generated revenue that is probably only equal to the sale of two $40K corporate suites (assuming 400 members' purchased seats in 112/113, as 400 X $200 = $80,000). There are thirty boxes at BMO, priced between $25K and $40K, with atleast nineteen (mostly the higher priced) boxes already sold. The "Prawn Sandwich Brigade" types in the club seats (section 123) paid 8/8.5 times as much ($1600 before Dec 31, $1700 after) as their Plebian brothers, and their section also sold out very quickly. I'm sure the 112/113 guys will try to even things up through beer sales, but they should still expect MLSE to ask them for a greater financial contribution next year. quote: Secondly, By the sounds of it, the $$$ netted BMO for the naming rights may have covered MLSEL investment in the stadium as well as the exapnsion fee. No. Although the rumoured $27M (it could be less - and probably is) that MLSE got from BMO is greater than the $18M they put into the stadium, the expansion fee was $12USD (~$14CDN). Also, even if the BMO money was greater than the costs, MLSE's accountants would still find a way to make it look like a loss for tax purposes. Most of the $18M spent on the stadium will be put onto the books for 2006 and 2007. The sponsorship deal with BMO is for ten years, so Generally Accepted Accounting Practices will probably see MLSE adding one-tenth of the sponsorship deal revenue to their books for each of the next ten years. This way, the costs exceed the revenue, and MLSE can claim a loss on TFC/BMO Field against the profits for the Leafs/ACC for the first couple of years. This helps with taxes. It won't help later down the road, but many of the current players at MLSE could be gone by then anyways. I have no idea how they will treat the expansion fee, but they will likely use it to full effect to nullify any operating profits that are generated. Since MLSE is a private company and extremely secretive, this is all just by best amateur-like guess. quote:What this all means is that they are operating at level way above the league since the cap is at only 2.1Mill$. To sustain themselves they would require an increase in cap amount. Once again, see my comments about above about the tickets being very low (ex TFC's top seats are $1700CDN, while La Galaxy's top seats are $3700USD - and their park seats 27,000 + 3,500 squatters on grass). I am sure that TFC will make an OPERATING profit, but not an absolute profit when initial start-up costs are factored in. The other catch is that only 49% is for MLSE, the other 51% is for MLS, and it will be needed to cover the losses that most of the other clubs will run (ex. the disaster that is the Kansas City Wizards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Once the "new car smell" wears off, of the 11k who's signed up, a drop-off of about 20-35% doesn't seem to be unlikely. If it's below that, then the TFC are in EXCELLENT hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 I remember the TFC officials stating that if they got 7500 season seats, they would have been very pleased. I fully expect prices to go up by an average of 20% next year at a minimum. Heck, if they increase the price in the supporters section from $200 to $300, that's still a great deal. that averages out to $20.00 per match for a 15 game season and that is for field level seats, even though they are behind the net. The only error I think TFC made was offering the early bird special that I took advantage of, which got me a season ticket in the supporter section for $100 if I bought a ticket in one of the 4 highest priced sections of the park at the early bird discounted price. Basically, I snagged 4 season tickets (2 in section 221 and 2 in the supporters section) for less than $1100 before taxes. That is a great value but I doubt that will be available next year, which is fine by me because then I will just get my two seats in Sec 221 and be happy with that, which will in turn make more supporter section seats available to people who want to buy those tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by An Observer [br It will be interesting to see whether on certain games they have big empty gaps in the middle of the crowd with the fringes of the stadium full. If so, that may impact the atmosphere. Well since the middle of the East and West stands is where the prawn sandwich brigade sits, the atmosphere should be fine as long as the cheap seats in the supporter section remain full.[)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Folks are assuming there will be a drop off next year, which is possible. But noone has come out and stated the key factor: if the team has a good year, plays well, wins, gets into the playoffs, maybe plays a friendly vs. a strong Euro club with season tix holders getting first options on seats, then you are not going to drop off that much. You may in fact get on a roll and find waiting lists emerge for some of the good sections. The best factor is to play in a way that fans feel you are going to win, are close to winning, or you are playing well enough to win. Then they will come back, as they will have enjoyed themselves. Or is it that everyone assumes this won't happen this year, are really that pessimist? I would love to see TO win the damn MLS Cup this year, stick it to those guys s of the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Folks are assuming there will be a drop off next year, which is possible. But noone has come out and stated the key factor: if the team has a good year, plays well, wins, gets into the playoffs, maybe plays a friendly vs. a strong Euro club with season tix holders getting first options on seats, then you are not going to drop off that much. You may in fact get on a roll and find waiting lists emerge for some of the good sections. The best factor is to play in a way that fans feel you are going to win, are close to winning, or you are playing well enough to win. Then they will come back, as they will have enjoyed themselves. Or is it that everyone assumes this won't happen this year, are really that pessimist? I would love to see TO win the damn MLS Cup this year, stick it to those guys s of the border. Ya, that'd be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Be nice, hey mr ball this would be heaven.What happened to your enthousiasm,the motivator of live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Be nice, hey mr ball this would be heaven.What happened to your enthousiasm,the motivator of live. ????? (Pssst. I think he's talking to you!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAS Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by VPjr I remember the TFC officials stating that if they got 7500 season seats, they would have been very pleased. Since the top two MLS clubs for season's tickets in recent years have been getting around 8K (I'm sure LA will top that this year), then 7500 would have been good. I imagine the projections (by nature usually conservative) were probably 5-6K. quote:I fully expect prices to go up by an average of 20% next year at a minimum. Heck, if they increase the price in the supporters section from $200 to $300, that's still a great deal. that averages out to $20.00 per match for a 15 game season and that is for field level seats, even though they are behind the net. Since my previous post was too long as is, I didn't include my predictions on next year's prices. My guess for the supporters section was a move from $200 to $240 (matching your 20% projection). The club seats also sold very quickly and are far below what the big fish usually pay for top seats, so expect them to go from $1700 to $2000 very easily - and without any real complaint. quote:The only error I think TFC made was offering the early bird special that I took advantage of, which got me a season ticket in the supporter section for $100 if I bought a ticket in one of the 4 highest priced sections of the park at the early bird discounted price. Basically, I snagged 4 season tickets (2 in section 221 and 2 in the supporters section) for less than $1100 before taxes. That is a great value but I doubt that will be available next year, which is fine by me because then I will just get my two seats in Sec 221 and be happy with that, which will in turn make more supporter section seats available to people who want to buy those tickets The $100 seats, "buy before December 31" sale, and possibly the mid-level section's "youth prices" (U14 - too difficult to monitor/enforce) could and probably should disappear as they are not needed. It is just leaving money on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I assume that everybody realizes that once you buy these season tickets you buy the rights to these seats for as long as you want to keep those seats. It is not just one season.I think this is a great way of assuring that you know what you have forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 The number is now 12,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. . Then they will come back, as they will have enjoyed themselves. Or is it that everyone assumes this won't happen this year, are really that pessimist? I would love to see TO win the damn MLS Cup this year, stick it to those guys s of the border. Do you honestly think Americans would care if TFC won the MLS Cup their 1st year? I certainly don't. Especially since the team has several American players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank Do you honestly think Americans would care if TFC won the MLS Cup their 1st year? I certainly don't. Especially since the team has several American players. Just like it wasn't news when the Jays won the World Series, noone in the US cared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Just like it wasn't news when the Jays won the World Series, noone in the US cared. I recall then President Bush saying something along the lines of "back off Canada, baseball is our game." Baseball and soccer is apples and oranges at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlsintoronto Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 this just in....only 500 season tickets left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 quote:Originally posted by mlsintoronto this just in....only 500 season tickets left. Where is it being capped at? is it 12500?. I thought that I had read that MLSEL would cut off sales at 14000. It would be nice to see a situation where every home game is soldout throughout the season hence I suspect that a base of 14K would ensure that the demand would be sustained into next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 So I guess that makes the total 13,500. Impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I find the number or tickets sold to be quite odd... The fact that the Lynx struggled so badly in comparison and our 2 other USL franchises are working within their means and have more realistic numbers leads me to believe that Beckham is that much of a sell and/or MLSE's corporate sales department is very good. I don't believe the soccer is driving the sales. I'd believe the MLS would probably draw 6-10,000 season tickets as a realistic first year franchise in a better league/brand new stadium. 13,500 is quite the number... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Who would you rather have promoting your game, though, Danny Boy? MLSE, who are in the sports business, are an experienced sports giant, and know what to do, or the Hartrells, who spent more time whining to the media about how it seemed to be everyone's fault but their own as a marketing tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 The fact Vancouver takes USL-D1 more seriously than Toronto always meant diddlysquat where MLS is concerned. For most soccer people in southern Ontario this is the first local pro soccer team since the NASL folded and the Lynx were not even on their radar screen. Worth noting that there were 6900 tickets sold the evening before the Beckham announcement and that that was already the top number in the league at that point. I suspect that Vancouver is now very high on MLS's agenda because there is not much doubt that similar numbers could be posted there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 There was next to no advertising for the Lynx. Not to mention that the new stadium being built (close to downtown) is drawing attention to TFC/MLSE as well. Also, the Lynx had crowds of 2500-4000 in their first couple of seasons at Varsity, things really went down the crapper after the team moved and were consistently producing an inferior product... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy I find the number or tickets sold to be quite odd... The fact that the Lynx struggled so badly in comparison and our 2 other USL franchises are working within their means and have more realistic numbers leads me to believe that Beckham is that much of a sell and/or MLSE's corporate sales department is very good. I don't believe the soccer is driving the sales. I'd believe the MLS would probably draw 6-10,000 season tickets as a realistic first year franchise in a better league/brand new stadium. 13,500 is quite the number... MLSEL has a staff of 65-70 people many of whom are devoted to Marketing. That gets noticed not only by the ticket buyers but also the media. The Hartrells were pretty much a 2 to 2.5 person operation. Their offices were something like 600 sq feet in a small a cheap south etobicoke industrial strip area. Right next to a bunch of storage areas for industrial container for shipping and transport. Who do you think is going to be take more seriously by the fans and the media? This phenomena is really not all the different from what Saputo was able to achieve in Montreal. For other examples you might want to ask why Manchester United has a larger fan base than Manchester city? Or why Juventus can trump Torino in the same fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.