Jason Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Yeah I think he was rated as a first rounder, even touted him as a possible #1 overall although I only recall one article on that note. Maybe would have been drafted in 1st round had he not committed to Europe by the time the draft rolled around, although as you say, likely more attractive to a Canadian team. I can't remember where, but I'm quite sure it was an American reporter who said if Friend was American and hadn't committed to Europe, he certainly would've been the #1 overall pick in the MLS draft the year he was eligible. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Ed The only true league to league comparison that can be made to date is in the CONCACAF Champions Cup and MLS teams routinely get their asses handed to them by Central American and Mexican clubs in the head to heads the past few years. As I said before, you can not use games that have nothing at stake as a way to determine what team is better. But I do find it funny that you bring up games played in the MLS preseason as "the only true league to league comparison". Up to this point, there has been none. That will change this summer with the new "Interliga". I believe both Mexico and MLS teams will be in midseason, and more importantly they will be playing for $1m. One more point I want to bring up is, Stoke City (a team near the top of the second level in England) had something like 11,872 people today against Ipswich Town. Toronto FC has sold over 11,000 season tickets. I know that the number of people at games does not show how good the game is, but still... James Wadsworth http://canuckreport.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca When you mention Grande, I have to wonder how much of a factor "truly" returning home is (ie. close to one's home town, as opposed to Canada in general). Roselund is from BC, Grande is from Montreal. So far TFC have only signed hometown boys or from nearby cities I was forgetting Braz when I wrote this, although I was thinking primarily of players returning from Europe, rather than coming from USL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard People speak about Europe as if it is one big homogenous entity. MLS is better than the national leagues in most of UEFA's 52 members. American soccer has been able to move beyond the cultural cringe that European is always better. With entry to MLS it is time Canadian soccer did the same. We have a genuinely pro level club team right here in Canada now that could more than hold its own in almost all of UEFA's top tiered national leagues. Thank You... Excellent post. I could not have put it better. I have cringed a little as well over the years at hearing that inferiority complex towards Europe. The minute someone goes to Europe, you hear the the big " Yeah!" without even asking what kind of environement it is. All we do here is speculate. What is not speculation is the fact that when you see lineups for national sides of sweden, for example, Everybody in the lineup plays abroad. Occasionally you will see the odd bench player who plays domestically. The same exists with many other championships in Europe such as Denmark, belgium, Norway, and to a certain degree even Holland and Portugal. Incidently, regarding Portugal, I was checking up on attendances last night for these various teams without much success. But I did come accross the stats for Portugal. Well the majority of teams in that championship draw crowds comparable to the Lynx. The attendances for the impact would be near the top in Portugal. Its very likely the strong sponsorship deals and TV deals that the USL dont have where the difference lies in terms of salaries. Soccer may be anywhere from 5-10 in terms of popularity for teams sports in Canada and the US but there are over 330 Million people combined here. With Further deals with the Mexican league ( who have been attracting some big south american names) might mean something pretty big here. Whereas some of the countries I mentioned have populations that are smaller than some provinces and in some instances smaller than the GTA. As far as GDP and economic activity, Well Germany, France and the UK are real economic drivers in the EU. As far as wealth and size of private sector Canada has nothing to envy of the smaller European country. These kind of things have alot to do as far as creating a "Professional Environment". I too wonder how many games people have seen from the Swedish or Norwegian premier just to name a few. Or for that matter the USL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I usually agree with Gordon but his statement that there are 20 to 30 European leagues better than the MLS is simply untrue. I phrased it awkwardly. What I was meaning to say was that from a players perspective there were 20-30 leagues that were better options for them because the quality of play and development was at least as good and the pay was better than MLS. For example, I do not think the Norwegian League is a higher standard of play generally than MLS (although Rosenberg likely is) but it is not lower and the pay - from the reports we have received - appears to be better. So if the opportunities are similar, and the pay is higher it is a better option if you are a player. I think that MLS has evolved into a fairly decent league in terms of the play. There is a huge disparity in talent from top to bottom on any given MLS team's roster, which I think would reveal itself in a longer season with significant Cup play so I am not so confident as to how the teams would stack up over a European length season, but the starting 11s for MLS are pretty good. As for BBTB's cooment about how many of those Euro leagues have I seen, well truth be told most I haven't. But I can extrapolate. I follow the careers of Canucks abroad, see how their teams rate in the league and how they rate within their teams, read message boards to get some fan perspectives on the teams and players, and then compare the quality of those Canucks to MLS players. So, when I see Chris Pozniak, a good second division player in Norway, but not of a caliber to attract the interest of a First Division team sign on with MLS, and my estimation that Pozniak will be a reasonable MLS player (by no means a star but able to hold his own) based on what I have seen of Pozniak and of MLS, I think I can reasonably deduce that MLS is not a whole lot stronger than the Norwegian First. Now if Pozniak is badly exposed and in way over his head next year, then I would have to reassess that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If MLS can grow at a decent clip over the next 3-5 years and average salaries grow in lock-step, this will be a formidable league. This is what I hope the ultimate "Beckham effect" will be. The goal must be to get the average salary of the starting 11 on every team to exceed $150K (US) and people on the development rosters need to make a minimum of $30K so that young north american players can make the decision to stay home with more enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Incidently, regarding Portugal, I was checking up on attendances last night for these various teams without much success. But I did come accross the stats for Portugal. Well the majority of teams in that championship draw crowds comparable to the Lynx. The attendances for the impact would be near the top in Portugal. Its very likely the strong sponsorship deals and TV deals that the USL dont have where the difference lies in terms of salaries. I think this url is the best site for European attendance stats and I suspect some of the numbers once you get past the big 5 leagues and the top 2 or 3 teams in the higher profile smaller leagues could be a real eyeopener for some on here:- http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm In Portugal for example, Alex Bunbury's old team Maritimo draw an average of just 4000:- http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/avepor.htm while in Norway Chris Pozniak and Marco Reda's last clubs drew 1718 and 1844 a game respectively. Toronto Lynx numbers in other words. Even Patrice Bernier's team only attracted 5068. Whitecaps numbers in other words. http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/avenor.htm If in 10 years time we have three MLS teams in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal with a salary cap that has risen to about double where it is right now factoring in inflation (may be a conservative estimate in my opinion) I suspect there will be a very solid base of national team players playing right here in Canada at that point who will not be jetlagged during CONCACAF qualifiers and who will be getting into the hex reasonably routinely and making a serious challenge for regular qualification. The USSF may live to regret having Canadian teams in their league system at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Start fan in exile Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard while in Norway Chris Pozniak and Marco Reda's last clubs drew 1718 and 1844 a game respectively. Toronto Lynx numbers in other words. Even Patrice Bernier's team only attracted 5068. Whitecaps numbers in other words. Those kind of stats are a little deceiving. Sogndal - where Reda played - is a town of less than 7,000 inhabitants. 1,844 is a pretty good average! Even Tromsø has only 63,000 people - so 5,000 is still a pretty good percentage of the population. (Haugesund has about 32,000) Anyway, I think Rosenlund should follow in the footsteps of Friend and Bernier and sign with a 2nd tier team in Scandinavia - preferably a team that does not actually have ambition to establigh themselves in the top tier. That way he will get plenty of playing time and exposure, and prepare himself for a jump to a bigger team after a couple of seasons. Moss, Sogndal, Haugesund, Mandalskameratene, Skeid are all examples of this type of club in Norway. If he signs with a top tier team now he risks plenty of bench time and possibly stalled development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Start fan in exile Those kind of stats are a little deceiving. Sogndal - where Reda played - is a town of less than 7,000 inhabitants. 1,844 is a pretty good average! Even Tromsø has only 63,000 people - so 5,000 is still a pretty good percentage of the population. (Haugesund has about 32,000) That is why Free Kick said: quote:Soccer may be anywhere from 5-10 in terms of popularity for teams sports in Canada and the US but there are over 330 Million people combined here. James Wadsworth http://canuckreport.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Start fan in exile Those kind of stats are a little deceiving. Sogndal - where Reda played - is a town of less than 7,000 inhabitants. 1,844 is a pretty good average! Even Tromsø has only 63,000 people - so 5,000 is still a pretty good percentage of the population. (Haugesund has about 32,000) I've actually been to the Sogne Fjord (sp?). Took the train trip down to Flam off the main Bergen to Oslo line then a few ferries and the scenery was amazing. Anyway I digress. Always amazed me there is a team as big as Sogndal there. I think you are basically reinforcing my point that these are not huge clubs at the centre of the action in European terms though. quote:Anyway, I think Rosenlund should follow in the footsteps of Friend and Bernier and sign with a 2nd tier team in Scandinavia -... It appears to be AIK Stockholm that are interested in him:- http://torontomls.blogspot.com/2007/01/toronto-fc-speculation-tyler-rosenlund.html and that's a much bigger and more famous club obviously:- http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveswe.htm They averaged over 21,000 last summer so that's a lot more like going to Rosenborg Trondheim or FC Kobenhaven (like Hirschfeld and Hutchison at the moment) than being on a second tier level team in a small fishing port in the middle of nowhere. Much more understandable from a career progression standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Why is Poz used as for purposes of extrapolation? Why not include others as well. Based on your example of Chris Pozniak, what would you conclude if you applied the same standard (that you used) in regards to Jim Brennan, Claudio Reyna or David Beckham . Again, I am not aware of any Americans on MLS first teams that have left to play in Norway or Sweden. There are plenty of good USL level Canadians who have left for Scandinavia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Add also to Sigma's list Nat Borchers with Odd Grenland and Heath Pierce went to a team in Denmark as well. Odd (I think)also put in an offer for Twellman fairly recently, but I think MLS declined. A million bucks (or Eruo's cant recall) was the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Worth noting that Edson Buddle was attracting interest in Norway (mainly from Fredrikstad) but eventually opted for Toronto instead. http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=news&id=2479 As for Twellman:- http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=news&id=2686 Twellman, who started his professional career at 1860 Munich, was simply too pricey for the club to continue talks at this time. "I heard back from the league," Odd sport director Hallvar Thoresen told YA. "The fee they're expecting is well over our capabilities." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Poz is a bad example in that he played quite successfully in the Swedish top tier but did not re-sign because he was unhappy with the contract offer. I think he is someone fully capable of playing in the top tier of Scandanavian soccer but got a better monetary offer to play for a 2nd tier club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Start fan in exile Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard It appears to be AIK Stockholm that are interested in him:- They averaged over 21,000 last summer so that's a lot more like going to Rosenborg Trondheim or FC Kobenhaven (like Hirschfeld and Hutchison at the moment) than being on a second tier level team in a small fishing port in the middle of nowhere. Much more understandable from a career progression standpoint. AIK are definitely one of the big names in Scandiavian soccer (although they have fallen on hard times lately). My point, though, was that if Rosenlund wants to play in Scandiavia it might be a better career move to start at a smaller club where the chances of first team play are greater. Then, if he is picked up by a bigger club, he'll go there as a starter and not a benchwarmer. I can't see AIK playing a 20-yo unknown Canadian to start a lot of their matches. AIK needs to win - they can't ncessesarily afford to let a player develop slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljarov Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by VPjr If MLS can grow at a decent clip over the next 3-5 years and average salaries grow in lock-step, this will be a formidable league. This is what I hope the ultimate "Beckham effect" will be. The goal must be to get the average salary of the starting 11 on every team to exceed $150K (US) and people on the development rosters need to make a minimum of $30K so that young north american players can make the decision to stay home with more enthusiasm. For Reference, in 2006 the average salary was just below $90k. However, it was woefully skewd by a few massive contracts for Palencia, LD, EJ and J.P Garica in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Last year the salary cap was $US 1.9 million for a senior roster of 18 players. That works out to over $US 100k each by my calculation if a team maxes out on that. Don't think development roster players on the one hand or the few exceptions like Palencia, Donovan and now Beckham etc on the other should be taken into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Start fan in exile AIK are definitely one of the big names in Scandiavian soccer (although they have fallen on hard times lately). My point, though, was that if Rosenlund wants to play in Scandiavia it might be a better career move to start at a smaller club where the chances of first team play are greater..... We will have to disagree on that. Wind back to the first post in the thread from Gaucho. The word is national team coaches see this guy as helping Canada in World Cup qualifying. He should be close to being able to step in. AIK Stockholm are the bare minimum in prestige within the game terms that a player like that should be aspiring to in my opinion. His peers in that sort of regard would be Jaime Peters at Ipswich Town, Josh Wagenaar at ADO Den Haag, David Edgar at Newcastle United. If he needs playing time they can always loan him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If the national team coaches think he is getting us to South Africa in qualifying starting next year some time, he must have been holding back big time in the games I saw. I don't want to dis the young fellow, but he has a bit of work to do to convince me that he is not waaay back in the pecking order for CMNT midfielders. There is no way he would make my top 18 based on what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Why is Poz used as for purposes of extrapolation? Why not include others as well. quote: Originally posted by Grizzly Poz is a bad example in that he played quite successfully in the Swedish top tier but did not re-sign because he was unhappy with the contract offer. I think he is someone fully capable of playing in the top tier of Scandanavian soccer but got a better monetary offer to play for a 2nd tier club. You guys are being way to narrow in your interpretation of what I am saying. Poz is one example</u> among many. Griz, Poz playing in the Swedish first makes him all the more appropriate as an example. Unless he is completely overmatched in MLS, or he is a MLS superstar, the fact that he was a solid starter (but by no means a star)in the Swedish Top flight, and not bitchslapping the Norwegian second (and I think Haug. dropped to the thrid for a season too didn't they?) to the extent that a First Division team made a move for him would be a pretty good indicator that the leagues (Scandinavian Top Flights and MLS) were relatively compareable in play. Or, more to the point, that MLS is not so much superior to the Scandinavian Leagues that a player is poorly advised to turn down a larger salary to play in MLS because of the "development opportunities". Toronto FC has a number of ex-Scandinavian players on their roster in Pozniak, Reda and Braz. Reda considered a top player in Norway, but unable to make an impact in Denmark. How they perform in MLS will be interesting to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 quote:Or, more to the point, that MLS is not so much superior to the Scandinavian Leagues that a player is poorly advised to turn down a larger salary to play in MLS because of the "development opportunities". This is not what I am saying at all though Gordon. Some people are saying MLS is superior, you are saying Scandanavian leagues are superior and I am saying that they are pretty equal as far as league level and development opportunities. If he gets better money from one than the other than he should choose the one he gets the better money from or the team that he feels will give him the best opportunity to play. Regarding Poz you were using him to prove that the Norwegian 2nd tier was as good as MLS and this is not true because Poz has played well at the Swedish 1st tier and I am sure he could also have played in the Norwegian 1st tier. I suspect he got a contract offer from Haugesund that was too good to turn down. Sometimes lower division teams pay more than upper division teams. Reda was in fact a star player in Norway and his troubles in Denmark were mostly due to having a lot of injury problems while he was there not because he wasn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Actually i believe Gordon has been quite clear that he thinks they are equal in level of play, but that the development/advancement opportunities may be better in Scandanavia. "I phrased it awkwardly. What I was meaning to say was that from a players perspective there were 20-30 leagues that were better options for them because the quality of play and development was at least as good and the pay was better than MLS. For example, I do not think the Norwegian League is a higher standard of play generally than MLS (although Rosenberg likely is) but it is not lower and the pay - from the reports we have received - appears to be better. So if the opportunities are similar, and the pay is higher it is a better option if you are a player. I think that MLS has evolved into a fairly decent league in terms of the play. There is a huge disparity in talent from top to bottom on any given MLS team's roster, which I think would reveal itself in a longer season with significant Cup play so I am not so confident as to how the teams would stack up over a European length season, but the starting 11s for MLS are pretty good." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly "...you are saying Scandanavian leagues are superior</u> and I am saying that they are pretty equal as far as league level and development opportunities. If he gets better money from one than the other than he should choose the one he gets the better money from or the team that he feels will give him the best opportunity to play. Regarding Poz you were using him to prove that the Norwegian 2nd tier was as good as MLS and this is not true because Poz has played well at the Swedish 1st tier and I am sure he could also have played in the Norwegian 1st tier. I suspect he got a contract offer from Haugesund that was too good to turn down. Sometimes lower division teams pay more than upper division teams. Reda was in fact a star player in Norway and his troubles in Denmark were mostly due to having a lot of injury problems while he was there not because he wasn't good enough. Well, my writing in one post was perhaps awkward when I wrote "The bottom line is that there are 20-30 leagues in Europe that are better than MLS simply because the opportunity to develop is at least as good (and often better) and the money is superior." This was interpreted to mean that I was suggesting that there were 20-30 leagues with a better quality of play. Well, since I could see how it might reasonably misunderstood to mean that, I explained it once more. But note the bolded portion...I identify 20-30 leagues as 'better' because the development opportunity is "at least as good" and the money is better. Note that any reference to quality of play is only through the notion of 'development opportunity' which I note as being as good as (and often better - true in that you yourself identify that 8 are better). Secondly, earlier in the now infamous Pozniak post I very clearly state, by way of clarifying, that, with the exception of Rosenberg, "I do not think the Norwegian League is a higher standard of play generally than MLS". I am certainly not arguing that it is better, nor that the second division is as good as MLS. Only that someone who is likely not going to be anything more than average or lower in MLS was so far above the skill level in Norway that the First Division was chomping at the bit to get him. Just as, for example, nobody was chomping at the bit in MLS pre-TFC to pry Braz out of USL. Why the quibble about "top" versus "star"? I realize that these posts are often read in a hurry but "I do not think the Norwegian League is a higher standard of play generally than MLS (although Rosenberg likely is) but it is not lower and the pay - from the reports we have received - appears to be better. So if the opportunities are similar, and the pay is higher it is a better option if you are a player." seems pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I think if anyone could be bothered to go through the rolls of players playing in Europes best leagues (those which everyone will agree are superior in quality of play, at all levels, than MLS) that they would find a far, far greater number of players have graduated into these top level leagues through Scandinavia than MLS. No ifs, ands, or buts. How about the players playing in Europe's 2nd tier of leagues? The CCC, SPL, Eredivisie, etc. The leagues where the pay is unquestionably superior to MLS. So, Scandinavia and MLS are equal lauching pads/development tools? It's been brought up earlier in the topic how hard it is to compare these leagues which don't have any interplay as a point of reference. I don't think that it takes an especially trained eye to judge the matter. I haven't seen a lot of MLS this past year. Very, very little in fact but I can guarentee you the intensity of a low level CCC contest is about 200% of any MLS match I've seen in the last decade. Do not under rate that. It's a very, very important characteristic. We've got 5 lads playing football in Europes top flight. Radz, Diesel, Big Kev and The Guz would all fall into the "intense" catagory. Maybe even very intense catagory. I don't think that this is an accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta It's been brought up earlier in the topic how hard it is to compare these leagues which don't have any interplay as a point of reference. I don't think that it takes an especially trained eye to judge the matter. I haven't seen a lot of MLS this past year. Very, very little in fact but I can guarentee you the intensity of a low level CCC contest is about 200% of any MLS match I've seen in the last decade. Do not under rate that. It's a very, very important characteristic. By "intensity" do you mean the tempo of the game? If you do a lot of that is actually related to climate. It is much easier to run flat out on a winter afternoon in northern England than it is on a summer afternoon in Houston. Worth noting that the latter is a lot closer to the conditions encountered within CONCACAF during World Cup qualifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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