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Rosenlund Heading to Europe


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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

MLS might be equivalent to Scandinavia, or Belgium, or Austria. But you cannot compare it on a competitive level.

Nor for the money you can make, especially as a mid-level player.

Nor for the potential opportunities.

First the competition is stronger. You play a league, like in MLS, but it is not mostly lame duck as there are no playoffs. Every game counts. You can't coast. If you do you can be relegated; even if you are in a safe position you play weaker teams threatened with going down and they play hard, you can't relax. Your fans will pressure you for results, they'll can your coach, they'll hire in new players if you are not performing. The rewards are better too. If you have a good year you can see yourself playing in UEFA, maybe get a trip to play Bordeaux or Atletico de Madrid or Panatinaikos. No such opportunities for a player in MLS. There's the Cup, you have that other chance to win a trophy, plus the fact that you are playing more competitive games between Cup and League than the average MLS team, the season in fact lasts longer, you are in form for a greater part of the year (MLS has three months of vacations, while in Europe it is maybe 6 weeks).

Ignore the fact that you may get more fans in MLS, as the sponsors are better in Europe, and the transfer payments they can pull in are too. There is more money, and a better chance to be picked up by a stronger team, be offered a stronger contract, playing in Sweden than in MLS.

A good player will be able to move more easily and will rise in accord with his ability, while in MLS they stall, they coast, they have to make this huge leap to Europe which is difficult as the whole system of transfers is screwy. Just look at the way Friend or Hutch have moved, or McKenna, or Nsaliwa, Hume shifting up a division, up, or lateral, but with tons of options.

I think there is no comparison.

But I would argue that aside from McKenna none of the players have moved in accordance to their abilities or more accurately, their potential. Mckenna, it would seem,has maxxed out by getting gigs in the Bundesliga and SPL.

Hutch is a good example. Based on his pedigree and potential, has he maxxed out at FC Copenhagen? He was a tournament all star at the U20, and is regarded as immensely skilled. He is the same age as Clint Dempsey !!!! and I think Beasley as well. Looking back to 2003 versus now, as an emerging prospect in soccer you could say that Hutch was far far more highly regarded than dempsey and comparable to Beasley. So Again, I would counter and earlier point, what is the fastest route?

In regards to European play. I make a point to pay particular attention to the result and games summaries of our players who are invloved in Uefa competition. Often, due to the overall strenght of their clubs and league, their European play is limited to maybe 2-4 games. I wouldn't call that highly rewarding for your career. And, the opportunities to play Bordeaux or Atletico de Madrid or Panatinaikos is pretty rare.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Couldn't find number 1 pick Marvel Wynne on the 2006 MLS salaries list, but picks number 2, 3 and 4 made $45,000, $45,000 and $40,000 respectively...I didn't go any lower because the thought of possibly finding the 8th pick overall making less than my son does pumping gas was too disheartening. Just thought a reality check was in order...

Good luck to Tyler in Europe.

Edit note: Found Wynne...he did pretty well, base of $45K but total of $150,000 according to Washington Post

Round 1

1 Marvell Wynne D $150,000

2 Mehdi Ballouchy M $63,000

3 Jason Garey F $45,000

4 Yura Movsisyan F $40,000

5 Sacha Kljestan F $78,000

6 Dax McCarty M $42,500

7 Justin Moose M $16,500

8 Patrick Ianni D $78,000

9 Kei Kamara F $40,000

10 Calen Carr F $60,000

11 Leandro de Oliveira M $11,700

12 Nathan Sturgis D/M $78,000

Round 2

13 Jed Zayner D $37,500

14 Jeff Curtin D $11,700

15 Justin Moore D/M $45,000

16 Lance Watson M $11,700

17 Josmer Altidore F $98,333

18 Blake Wagner D/M $42,500

19 Tyson Wahl D $28,000

20 Brian Plotkin M $11,700

21 Jacob Peterson F $63,750

22 Dominic Oduro F $11,700

23 Willie Sims F $37,500

24 Marc Burch F $16,500

So in total, 6 of 24 in the top two rounds are making a developmental salary. Those six players combined played in 51 games (including sub appearances) total.

Players who are good enough to come straight into the league typically will make a decent salary. Long-shot prospects are the ones getting the low pay. Some of em work out, most don't. Would it be better if these guys could make more, definitely, but they are making a hell of a lot more than the equivalent on a USL roster.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Did Friend really do better Financially in the long term? Again, I go back to the Hutch versus Dempsey ( sounds like a card for a heavyweight fight :D) example.

Both of the above players are the same age. Yet Dempsey moved for what I think was 4$mill. Does anyone have the transfer $$$ info for Hutch to FCK. Transfer fees, I think, are a prety good approximation of your earning potential as a soccer player.

Hopefully, Rosenlund knows what he is doing. But based on precedant, it would appear to be a bad move for his long term career. Sometimes I wonder what kind of advice that our players are getting.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Did Friend really do better Financially in the long term? Again, I go back to the Hutch versus Dempsey ( sounds like a card for a heavyweight fight :D) example.

Both of the above players are the same age. Yet Dempsey moved for what I think was 4$mill. Does anyone have the transfer $$$ info for Hutch to FCK. Transfer fees, I think, are a prety good approximation of your earning potential as a soccer player.

Hopefully, Rosenlund knows what he is doing. But based on precedant, it would appear to be a bad move for his long term career. Sometimes I wonder what kind of advice that our players are getting.

Your precedents are false. Friend has made more than Dempsey thus far in his career. Hutchinson is much further along than both Dempsey and Beasley (and has made considerably more money than the former). 1.5 million pounds is a transfer fee for a premiership squad player. Fulham is no better or more advanced than FCK, although they play in a better league. Of course, for that to be of value, you actually have to get on the field. 2 weeks in is too early to judge where Dempsey's career is going, but I am pretty certain that Hutchinson will greatly eclipse both Dempsey and Beasley (he already has done so with both)over the long haul. Both Friend and Hutchinson took higher paying jobs in leagues that are as good or better than MLS. If development turns out differently for any of them, it is the result of talent, and not the decision to thumb there nose at the lower paying job. That is the bottom line Tony, the leagues are compareable, the seasons and the number of games greater in Europe and at the end of the day, talent determines outcomes.

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quote:Originally posted by Ryan Keay

Round 1

1 Marvell Wynne D $150,000

2 Mehdi Ballouchy M $63,000

3 Jason Garey F $45,000

4 Yura Movsisyan F $40,000

5 Sacha Kljestan F $78,000

6 Dax McCarty M $42,500

7 Justin Moose M $16,500

8 Patrick Ianni D $78,000

9 Kei Kamara F $40,000

10 Calen Carr F $60,000

11 Leandro de Oliveira M $11,700

12 Nathan Sturgis D/M $78,000

Round 2

13 Jed Zayner D $37,500

14 Jeff Curtin D $11,700

15 Justin Moore D/M $45,000

16 Lance Watson M $11,700

17 Josmer Altidore F $98,333

18 Blake Wagner D/M $42,500

19 Tyson Wahl D $28,000

20 Brian Plotkin M $11,700

21 Jacob Peterson F $63,750

22 Dominic Oduro F $11,700

23 Willie Sims F $37,500

24 Marc Burch F $16,500

So in total, 6 of 24 in the top two rounds are making a developmental salary. Those six players combined played in 51 games (including sub appearances) total.

Players who are good enough to come straight into the league typically will make a decent salary. Long-shot prospects are the ones getting the low pay. Some of em work out, most don't. Would it be better if these guys could make more, definitely, but they are making a hell of a lot more than the equivalent on a USL roster.

So basically, everyone but Wynne made less money than what Roselund could make in Europe. I suppose if TFC guaranteed Roselund that he would go first, and that he would make Wynne like money, then staying in MLS is an option, but otherwise, Europe is the place for him as these numbers pretty clearly show.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Your precedents are false. Friend has made more than Dempsey thus far in his career. Hutchinson is much further along than both Dempsey and Beasley (and has made considerably more money than the former). 1.5 million pounds is a transfer fee for a premiership squad player. Fulham is no better or more advanced than FCK, although they play in a better league. Of course, for that to be of value, you actually have to get on the field. 2 weeks in is too early to judge where Dempsey's career is going, but I am pretty certain that Hutchinson will greatly eclipse both Dempsey and Beasley (he already has done so with both)over the long haul. Both Friend and Hutchinson took higher paying jobs in leagues that are as good or better than MLS. If development turns out differently for any of them, it is the result of talent, and not the decision to thumb there nose at the lower paying job. That is the bottom line Tony, the leagues are compareable, the seasons and the number of games greater in Europe and at the end of the day, talent determines outcomes.

Gordon, Your timming could not have been worst:D . There is post in another thread stating that Freind just got loaned out to club in Holland fighting to stay out of the drop zone. So he is leaving a club fighting for a spot in Europe to go to one that fighting the drop.

MLS my friend :D MLS :D .

More things for Rosenlund to consider. ;)

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Fulham is no better or more advanced than FCK, although they play in a better league. Of course, for that to be of value, you actually have to get on the field.....

Not a perfect analogy but if the Premiership is "the Show", the Danish League is about AA in the pecking order of European national leagues. TV money reflects that fact and that translates into higher salaries and all the better perks that go with playing for a team televised regularly by Sky across all of western Europe by satellite as opposed to a team that most people outside the Copenhagen area know or care very little about.

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Friend was to be a first round draft pick in MLS, but made significantly more money signing for Moss of the Norwegian Second Division. No question Europe has been a great move for Friend, and I think all our players should go that way if at all possible (for the same reasons that Jeffrey stated and I have stated numerous prior times).

For those that can't make the jump, MLS is a great option.

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People speak about Europe as if it is one big homogenous entity. MLS is better than the national leagues in most of UEFA's 52 members. American soccer has been able to move beyond the cultural cringe that European is always better. With entry to MLS it is time Canadian soccer did the same. We have a genuinely pro level club team right here in Canada now that could more than hold its own in almost all of UEFA's top tiered national leagues.

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Yes, Friend was selected by the Fire in the MLS draft in the 3rd or 4th round, but he had already decided to go to Europe, so his stock fell in the draft. Chicago took a chance and drafted Rob despite knowing that Rob was planning to go overseas.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

FWIW, I had thought that Friend was drafted in the 4th round of whatever draft year he was eligible for (2003?). Granted, if there had been a Canadian MLS team at the time he might very well have gone in the first round.

And could have been like Andrew Boyens in that scenario who opted for Toronto FC despite interest from European clubs:-

http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/jan/13/pro-soccer-lobos-boyens-headed-mls/?lobozone-story-detail=1/

Boyens, a two-time All-American at UNM, joins three other former Lobos in the MLS. At No. 10, he is the highest drafted UNM player in school history.

"This is a well deserved honor and I think he is the best player in the whole draft," said UNM head coach Jeremy Fishbein. "He was a big part of our success over the last three years and will have a long professional career."

Fishbein said the early selection of Boyens didn't surprise him. MLS draft commentator Eric Wynalda projected him as the No. 1 player in the draft during its broadcast.

"What surprised me is that he's playing MLS rather than playing over in Europe, but they put together a pretty good offer," Fishbein said.

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

People speak about Europe as if it is one big homogenous entity. MLS is better than the national leagues in most of UEFA's 52 members. American soccer has been able to move beyond the cultural cringe that European is always better. With entry to MLS it is time Canadian soccer did the same.

This is simply a untrue generalization on all counts. The best american prospects go to good leagues in Europe over MLS regularly. "Gooch" is one current high profile example but there are many other. MLS has its place in the world of soccer...if the Canucks in Hungary had the chance to play in MLS, it would likely be better for them both in terms of development and in terms of salary, but they don't. The bottom line is that there are 20-30 leagues in Europe that are better than MLS simply because the opportunity to develop is at least as good (and often better) and the money is superior. MLS has no special advantage simply for being domestic. It is an improvement over USL. But it has not superceded any of the tier two and tier 3 leagues in UEFA, although it may be equal to many.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

People speak about Europe as if it is one big homogenous entity. MLS is better than the national leagues in most of UEFA's 52 members. American soccer has been able to move beyond the cultural cringe that European is always better. With entry to MLS it is time Canadian soccer did the same.

I would say England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France, Turkey, Greece, Holland and Portugal are better than MLS. I would admit that lower teams in the top flights of the latter may be equal to MLS sides, but that is normal when you have more teams than in the USA-Canada.

I base this on an opinion that in none of them could an MLS side as currently constituted even make a UEFA spot. The best MLS sides would struggle to stay up in the top four leagues, and would be mid to lower table in the others.

Leagues that may be similar are Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway. Austria has clearly dropped off. Russia may be better now. Ukraine maybe similar overall. The better sides in these league are superior to the MLS' best. A good test is the pre-season tournament vs. Scandinavian sides in La Manga (where Occean was spotted), where pre-season MLS are about even with the mid-table Norway sides at the same stage of the season.

No MLS side breaks the top three and maybe not the top four in Scotland. The better Romanian and Bulgarian sides are better than any team in MLS. Once again, the level drops off more quickly in the middle European leagues, as there are more teams, and the big clubs dominate more clearly. Lalas is right to say that the MLS is competitive, though his moves at Galaxy are all about creating a dynasty and maybe destroying that virtue. Since teams don't relegate we don't know if an MLS side would be the type to go down and really struggle to get back up or never do; maybe Real SL is really a 2nd division team but we just haven't got to see it happen, so the question is falsified a bit.

MLS may be better than Sweden, Finland, Poland, Balkan leagues as things stand now. Better than the Baltic states. Than Ireland and Wales.

So as I read it no MLS side could win and it would be very hard for them to make even an UEFA spot in most of the name European leagues.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

FWIW, I had thought that Friend was drafted in the 4th round of whatever draft year he was eligible for (2003?). Granted, if there had been a Canadian MLS team at the time he might very well have gone in the first round.

Yeah I think he was rated as a first rounder, even touted him as a possible #1 overall although I only recall one article on that note. Maybe would have been drafted in 1st round had he not committed to Europe by the time the draft rolled around, although as you say, likely more attractive to a Canadian team.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The bottom line is that there are 20-30 leagues in Europe that are better than MLS simply because the opportunity to develop is at least as good (and often better) and the money is superior.

How many of these 20 to 30 leagues have you ever actually watched? I'm Scottish originally and still follow the SPL, which is currently the 10th or 11th ranked European league in UEFA coefficient terms, closely. From what I understand the average salary in MLS is higher these days than players at Dundee United, ICT or Falkirk would get (hence Peter Canero moving to the Metrostars/Red Bulls) and from what I saw last summer I honestly think MLS teams are better than clubs like that on the field of play. MLS is active on a full-time basis 10 months of the year so it is a big step up from USL-D1 in providing an environment for players to develop.

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Until the FIFA Club World Cup is expanded and teams care about it, there is no way to tell for certain which league is better. But it should be pointed out that MLS has held its own against big name teams. The upcoming tournament against Mexico should be another good way to tell how far along the MLS is. Many feel Mexico is the best league outside of Europe.

But again, until MLS teams play European teams when there is something at stake, we will never know what teams and leagues are best.

James Wadsworth

http://canuckreport.blogspot.com/

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I would say England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France, Turkey, Greece, Holland and Portugal are better than MLS. I would admit that lower teams in the top flights of the latter may be equal to MLS sides, but that is normal when you have more teams than in the USA-Canada.

England, Spain, Italy and France without a shadow of a doubt. Holland and Turkey probably (and I would add Russia here) although not as clear cut as it used to be but in the case of Greece and Portugal there is a huge drop off in quality and in the stature and budget of the clubs involved after the top few famous teams so personally I would have to disagree based on a straight comparison of mid-table clubs although it's different if a player can land a contract with Benfica or Panathinaikos obviously.

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/avegre.htm

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/avepor.htm

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quote:Originally posted by Jamit

Until the FIFA Club World Cup is expanded and teams care about it, there is no way to tell for certain which league is better. But it should be pointed out that MLS has held its own against big name teams. The upcoming tournament against Mexico should be another good way to tell how far along the MLS is. Many feel Mexico is the best league outside of Europe.

But again, until MLS teams play European teams when there is something at stake, we will never know what teams and leagues are best.

James Wadsworth

http://canuckreport.blogspot.com/

The 'holding its own against big name teams' is a bit speculative at best. The MLS has done quite well against 'big name teams' from Europe when the Euros are in pre-season training and MLS is in mid-season form. There have been no real games.

The only true league to league comparison that can be made to date is in the CONCACAF Champions Cup and MLS teams routinely get their asses handed to them by Central American and Mexican clubs in the head to heads the past few years.

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I usually agree with Gordon but his statement that there are 20 to 30 European leagues better than the MLS is simply untrue. Jeffery's list is a bit more accurate though Russia definitely is superior to Turkey and Greece and at par if not superior to Holland and Portugal. Ukraine would be about MLS level though again like many 2nd tier Euro leagues with very strong clubs at the top of the table and very weak ones at the bottom. I would say there are about 8 leagues that are superior to MLS and if you count the 2nd divisions of the top 4 countries about 15 to 20 that would be equivalent to MLS though many of the equivalent leagues are much more unbalanced in terms of quality than MLS.

I think the debate is a bit useless because I think both MLS and Sweden provide a viable development opportunity. It is important to understand that it is not only the league but the club situation that is important and as long as we only have one MLS club the opportunity offered is limited. We do not know what TFC would have offered Rosenlund salary wise or what Mo's plans for him would have been. Alternatively to all of the players being listed as Euro success stories there are a large number who also had their careers stalled in Europe because of contract problems or playing in obscure leagues (DeRo for example). Not every Euro league is effective in developing talent. I think too many people are looking only at the top level of European soccer and not the picture as a whole. MLS and Sweden are both 2nd tier leagues with 2nd class development opportunities and I am not going to quibble over a player picking one 2nd class opportunity over another. It is not like Rosenlund has turned down an opportunity to play for a team famous for developing talent to go to Sweden. Neither is he choosing a crap side over TFC like Grande apparently is.

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When you mention Grande, I have to wonder how much of a factor "truly" returning home is (ie. close to one's home town, as opposed to Canada in general). Roselund is from BC, Grande is from Montreal. So far TFC have only signed hometown boys or from nearby cities (like Hamilton, just an hour drive away), and coincidentally (or not) have drafted 3 kids from either the GTA or nearby cities (in this case, Tyler Hemmings from London, Ont.) The likes of Grande, Bernier etc. have not returned to Canada to play in another city or another part of the country, at least not yet.

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Rosenlund should have gone overseas earlier instead of playing college soccer. Some people said he was right to take the free education in case he doesn't succeed as a professional soccer player. Unfortunately he hasn't graduated so he doesn't have a diploma to fall back on, and his soccer career has been hindered. I'm not sure now is the right time for him to switch, but its his decision.

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