Materrazzi: No Pride, No Honour

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

No by all means he is not better than Cruyff, be he is certainly not average. Average players dont make a world cup winning team. they make the starting lineups in the main leagues.

More nonsense! So Roque Junior of Brasil is above average?

I could probably come-up with better examples, but I can't be bothered. You're blindly biased so what's the point? Fact is, Materrazzi was nothing more than a spare part on a pretty good team. He started some games on the bench for Italy, was red-carded in another match which almost cost Italy everything, and admittedly he had a good game against France.

[River City]

So because Gattuso won the World Cup that makes him somewhat skilled?

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

So because Gattuso won the World Cup that makes him somewhat skilled?

Well since you like to use certain words to depict a player, it may not make him "skilled" but the fact that he is a starting on one of the best teams in the world (Milan) and the fact that he starts for the best euro team of all time doesnt really make him a "bad" player now does it?

[River City]

Lots of crap players play for good teams....look at Semenko with the Oilers in their heyday.

Just because the team wins doesn't all of a sudden mean each player is a God's gift to the sport. You're stating that Materazzi and Gattuso are better than Signori and Baggio. That's crap. Even you have to agree with that.

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Lots of crap players play for good teams....look at Semenko with the Oilers in their heyday.

Just because the team wins doesn't all of a sudden mean each player is a God's gift to the sport. You're stating that Materazzi and Gattuso are better than Signori and Baggio. That's crap. Even you have to agree with that.

Ya Semenko was their to protect the great one. He did his job, that was his ONLY job. Why are you putting words in my mouth, I never said anything concerning Baggio, unless you are a mind reader. And by your theory the oilers arent team Canada, would semenko every make team canada .. thats what I thought you are comparing apples and oranjes.

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

Average players dont make a world cup winning team. they make the starting lineups in the main leagues.

That's what you said. By your logic Materazzi and Gattuso ARE better than Signori and Baggio because the first two won a World Cup and the other two didn't.

I brough up Semenko as an example that even the best teams have **** players.

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

That's what you said. By your logic Materazzi and Gattuso ARE better than Signori and Baggio because the first two won a World Cup and the other two didn't.

I brough up Semenko as an example that even the best teams have **** players.

in this situation Materazzi and Gattuso are on the NATIONAL team, a team where you have to be selected from a league of teams, MEANING if they are good enough to start for the National side then they are not so average. Baggio also made the national side and probably the best Italian player of all time in my opinion. I would laugh if Canada selected cement head semenko on the team. So by your logic making the national side and playing on a great team doesnt help the fact that you are average?? if that was the case let me try out for the maple leafs

[River City]

Your argument hinges on 'if they are good enough to start for the National side then they are not so average'. This would be valid if Gattuso was one of the top 4 mids in Italy and Materazzi was one of the top 4 defenders in Italy. If they are, then Italian soccer is really in trouble....

My point is that less than average players get called up to the national teams all the time. Whether through backroom politics or tactical decisions, skill is not always the deciding factor.

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Your argument hinges on 'if they are good enough to start for the National side then they are not so average'. This would be valid if Gattuso was one of the top 4 mids in Italy and Materazzi was one of the top 4 defenders in Italy. If they are, then Italian soccer is really in trouble....

My point is that less than average players get called up to the national teams all the time. Whether through backroom politics or tactical decisions, skill is not always the deciding factor.

Italian soccer is not in trouble in fact they are world champions I dont see how the situation can get any better, and If Gattuso is average then the whole English team is garbage by your standards. Gattuso kept Germany at bay and played well angainst Zidane. but next you will tell me Nesta and Fabio Canna are average too

[River City]

Italian soccer is in trouble...it's been in trouble for a long time. Corruption is inherent in the system, old boy networks run the show, doping is rampant. And the fact the system sees nothing wrong with it is even more scandalous.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the English game, but I don't post crap to try to bait them. Gattuso is less than average and the whole English team is not garbage. They were unlucky Lampard had a horrible tourney, Rooney was playing hurt, Owen was hurt, Erickson was on his way out and no one stepped up to the plate.

I respect good players regardless of where they're from and Nesta and Cannavaro are excellent defenders. Materazzi is no where near they're league. If you think he is, then stop drinking that crap Moretti beer.

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Italian soccer is in trouble...it's been in trouble for a long time. Corruption is inherent in the system, old boy networks run the show, doping is rampant. And the fact the system sees nothing wrong with it is even more scandalous.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the English game, but I don't post crap to try to bait them. Gattuso is less than average and the whole English team is not garbage. They were unlucky Lampard had a horrible tourney, Rooney was playing hurt, Owen was hurt, Erickson was on his way out and no one stepped up to the plate.

I respect good players regardless of where they're from and Nesta and Cannavaro are excellent defenders. Materazzi is no where near they're league. If you think he is, then stop drinking that crap Moretti beer.

Anyone who plays in a World cup final, or SCORES in a world cup final as a defender is not average. If England are so good why dont they ever make the finals? its a;lways excuses excuses with them, its fact that they are only average. the matrix also scored angainst the czech and put a penalty in as well. Gattuso was all over the field he plays with heart and hustle, Just like Wendel Clark, but ofcourse Wendel was average too.

[River City]

All teams have superstars, average players, and guys that are lucky they were called up. Gattuso and Materazzi fall into the last category. You can delude yourself all you want, but skillwise, they're not the best talent in Italy.

It's always excuses with England? Italy never has excuses, eh? Crap, the Italians started the excuses at the time of the group stage draw...long before anybody else. Remember the cold ball/warm ball theory? At least English teams don't rig the whole domestic championship and then have an unfair advantage in European competition.

Heart and hustle is not the same as skill. Are you telling me Gattuso is one of the top 5 Italian midfielders?

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by River City

All teams have superstars, average players, and guys that are lucky they were called up. Gattuso and Materazzi fall into the last category. You can delude yourself all you want, but skillwise, they're not the best talent in Italy.

It's always excuses with England? Italy never has excuses, eh? Crap, the Italians started the excuses at the time of the group stage draw...long before anybody else. Remember the cold ball/warm ball theory? At least English teams don't rig the whole domestic championship and then have an unfair advantage in European competition.

Heart and hustle is not the same as skill. Are you telling me Gattuso is one of the top 5 Italian midfielders?

So you can only be good if you are skilled? heart doesnt mean anything?? and you call yourself a so called hockey fan.Italy also produce results and have won the cup 4 times and made it to a final in the last 40 years, and no I never said Gattuso is the best there is a gap between "average" and "best" and yes for what Gattuso does for the team and HIS "job" his "role" to win the ball back makes him top 5. If Skill was so important teams like Spain and Mexico would win more often but its a variety of "skills" that make a player great. Look at Rick tocchet or Cam Neely, they had a good mix of skill with aggressive play

[loyola]

That's it, there's a gap between those superstars (Buffon, Canna and Nesta) and the rest. But the next level after superstars isn't "average", it's good and solid players (Gattuso and Materazzi fell in that category IMO). They aren't superstars but for Gattuso to be a starting mid for Italy, you need to be good player. As for Materazzi being the CB back up for the WC best defense you need to be at least a good player too.

According to some here you have the Hot Chix, then you have the average girl....nothing in between....not even a pretty girl or the cute one.....it's the hot chix or nothing else.

As for Gattuso having no skills, does anybody asked for him to have skills, Pirlo and Totti will compensate for that, the only thing Italians wants from Gattuso is to get the ball back into Italy favor. That's his role and if he's doing it correctly, it's fine.

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

That's it, there's a gap between those superstars (Buffon, Canna and Nesta) and the rest. But the next level after superstars isn't "average", it's good and solid players (Gattuso and Materazzi fell in that category IMO). They aren't superstars but for Gattuso to be a starting mid for Italy, you need to be good player. As for Materazzi being the CB back up for the WC best defense you need to be at least a good player too.

According to some here you have the Hot Chix, then you have the average girl....nothing in between....not even a pretty girl or the cute one.....it's the hot chix or nothing else.

As for Gattuso having no skills, does anybody asked for him to have skills, Pirlo and Totti will compensate for that, the only thing Italians wants from Gattuso is to get the ball back into Italy favor. That's his role and if he's doing it correctly, it's fine.

Thank you, Thats all I wanted to say.

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

he is an average player with a world cup medal which is more than I can say about most teams and players

Loyola thinks he's good. Forza Italia admitted he's average. I say he's less than average. But Forza Italia thinks that an average player winning a trophy somehow makes him better than he actually is.

[Gian-Luca]

Gattuso is very skilled......at winning the ball in the midfield at least. That's what he's there for. He's way above average at that particular skill.

End of discussion.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Forza_ItaliaAnyone who plays in a World cup final, or SCORES in a world cup final as a defender is not average. If England are so good why dont they ever make the finals? its a;lways excuses excuses with them, its fact that they are only average. the matrix also scored angainst the czech and put a penalty in as well. Gattuso was all over the field he plays with heart and hustle, Just like Wendel Clark, but ofcourse Wendel was average too.

I shouldn't get into this again but comparing Materazzi to Wendel Clark is an insult to Wendel Clark. Clark was one of the most honourable, old school types of players around who would stand up for himself and I am saying that even though I am not a Leafs fan. He was not a cowardly cheap shot artist like Materazzi. A better comparison would be Claude Lemieux, a very dirty player who played without honour but was also effective and won 4 Stanley Cups. Other players of this style were Kenny Linseman and Bobby Clarke though Clarke was also a more skilled player than Materazzi. Now before I get accused of wanting to send our poor persecuted Italian-Canadians to the gas chambers, yes I am fully aware that Italy is not the only team that has players like Materazzi and indeed one could name a large number of similar players from a great number of nations. As long as FIFA and the various leagues accept this style of play and don't punish dangerous play severely, teams will continue to employ such players (and here I am referring to incidents from Materazzi in league play not the headbutt incident). A lot of people seem to like and defend such players when they are playing on their team (as we see from the amount of support Materazzi has here) but I am really sickened by such guys. I like tough players like Clark or DeVos, I don't like dirty cowardly players like Materazzi, Claude Lemieux or Bobby Clark.

[loyola]

Materazzi isn't playing on my team, which is Holland BTW (after Canada of course) but I have to defend him and his team since people like you are claming that he "disgraced Italy and the WC"......

[Forza_Italia]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Materazzi isn't playing on my team, which is Holland BTW (after Canada of course) but I have to defend him and his team since people like you are claming that he "disgraced Italy and the WC"......

And what about Gattuso, why should he be considered less than average, he is not a coward , he plays like Clark.

[Grizzly]

Yes and I stand by that comment. I think he went down very easy on that headbutt and he certainly rolled around like he had been shot. If you think that is honourable behaviour than good for you. Maybe the surprise of the headbutt was enough to knock him down (though I am a bit doubtful of this too considering he saw him coming) but even so he certainly made as much out of it as he could. You are on record as saying that you would encourage your players to embellish a foul to make sure it got carded. I would not because I don't think it is honourable regardless of whether or not it is common in soccer. There were certainly many other incidents that disgraced the WC in fact enough that I would call the whole tournament a disgrace to soccer and in particular FIFA's reaction to them. And yes many of the other disgraceful incidents were not committed by either Materazzi or Italy. In fact there were a number of disgraceful incidents committed by referees and FIFA officials. I also include the headbutt by Zidane and the dive by Malouda (and here Materazzi did not do anything wrong to warrant the penalty being given) in the final among the disgraceful incidents. Materazzi is not a superstar but he is a talented player and it is not really necessary for him to play the way he does. Watch the Materazzi highlight video from Italian television that is on Youtube and if you think he is an honourable player Loyola than you have different standards of honour than I do. The irony of this is he was one of the most hated players in Italy before the World Cup and if he wasn't involved in this incident in an Italian World Cup victory most of he Italians here who aren't Inter-Milan fans would be dissing him as well.

[River City]

Look Forza Italia....

you admitted he was average. My contention is that you said that because he won a world cup, that makes him better.

[maccaliam]

just thought i would jump in here.

I can see what both sides say, though i must admit I am not a fan of materazzi at all. I think Materazzi does make Italian football look bad in general (not relating to the World CUp Final at all). I have heard he is hated by many italian fans and many Inter Fans too. he reminds me of robbie savage. A suprisingly skilled, hard worker, who everyone absolutely hates. All he does is talk %&^# and wind up the other players often leading to them being sent off. Respectable, no. Effective, yes.

I do think materazzi is an average player, by top international standards. I do not agree though with gattuso being placed in the same bracket as him.

Gattuso is a hard working ball winner. He is not the most technically skilled or flashiest player, but he does his job extrmely well. England keep talking about how they need a ball winning midfielder to compliment Gerrard and Lampard. Italy have no complaints there bc they have Gattuso doing that for them.

It is a role makelele does superbly for chelsea and france. They provide cover for the back four to allow the other more technically skilled players to get foward to get all the glory. It is no coincidence that the decline of real madrid coincided directly with the loss of makelele to chelsea. It is an unselfish and very often overlooked job but none the less a skill in itself.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Yes and I stand by that comment. I think he went down very easy on that headbutt and he certainly rolled around like he had been shot. If you think that is honourable behaviour than good for you. Maybe the surprise of the headbutt was enough to knock him down (though I am a bit doubtful of this too considering he saw him coming) but even so he certainly made as much out of it as he could. You are on record as saying that you would encourage your players to embellish a foul to make sure it got carded. I would not because I don't think it is honourable regardless of whether or not it is common in soccer. There were certainly many other incidents that disgraced the WC in fact enough that I would call the whole tournament a disgrace to soccer and in particular FIFA's reaction to them. And yes many of the other disgraceful incidents were not committed by either Materazzi or Italy. In fact there were a number of disgraceful incidents committed by referees and FIFA officials. I also include the headbutt by Zidane and the dive by Malouda (and here Materazzi did not do anything wrong to warrant the penalty being given) in the final among the disgraceful incidents. Materazzi is not a superstar but he is a talented player and it is not really necessary for him to play the way he does. Watch the Materazzi highlight video from Italian television that is on Youtube and if you think he is an honourable player Loyola than you have different standards of honour than I do. The irony of this is he was one of the most hated players in Italy before the World Cup and if he wasn't involved in this incident in an Italian World Cup victory most of he Italians here who aren't Inter-Milan fans would be dissing him as well.

When you say that I would encourage a player to go down you have to see the whole thing here: if a player is victim of a red card offense (violence not a tackle or any play during the flow of the game) that a ref couldn't see or it would be easier to spot if a player goes down I would tell my player to go down even if he could stay up.

What will happen if a player is victim of a cheap shot and it isn't punish? It's simple the victim will try a cheap shot on his agressor and a game could turn ugly because of it (I've seen it quite often at the college level and it's no fun) and quite often the first victim get sent off. I prefer that the first user of violence be punish, it's better for the game IMO.

I'm not saying to go to the ground after a little shove, I'm talking of serious act of violence (I'm able to stay up after receiving a punch but it's no dishonour to go down so my agressor get punish accordingly to the law of the game).

Honestly, do you think that Materazzi rolling to the ground got ZZ red carded? I think that when the linesman saw that headbutt he knew that ZZ had to be sent off.

Anyways, it's Zidane who brought the violence aspect to an insults game on a football pitch, I think he's the only one who's guilty of disgracing himself, not his team, and not the WC.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

And what about Gattuso, why should he be considered less than average, he is not a coward , he plays like Clark.

Actually in re-reading your post if you are only comparing Gattuso to Clark that is a more acceptable comparison. Gattuso is a role player and fulfills that role well even if he isn't the most technically gifted player on the team. He is a tough, aggressive player but not a coward like Materazzi. I agree with the posts defending him because you do need some players like this to go along with the more skilled players. As I have said before I like how Italy played in this World Cup even though they are not one of my favourite teams. They were one of the few teams who consistently played well throughout the tournament and in this sense deserved to win. France in comparison played very poorly until the knockout stage. I will even say that there is some unfairness to the criticism Italy is getting as the winner because there was so much cheating and dirty play allowed in the whole tournament that players knew things were not going to be punished and a disgraceful incident was bound to occur in the final. I in fact predicted this before the final. There were a few things Italy did that I did not approve of but there were so many incidents from other teams throughout the tournament that it is hard to single them out. The one constant was most of these incidents were done by European teams who knew the refs and FIFA were on their side. The problem is when a tournament is run in an unfair and corrupt manner, any incident that occurs in the final is bound to get far more prominence than the many incidents that occured before it (for example, the Figo headbutt and van Bommel's dive is forgotten but the Zidane headbutt and Materazzi's reaction [i'll refrain from using the word dive to make Loyola happy] will be remembered forever.)