JamesW Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Just read the interview, it was great. Thanks for getting it done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 This is a blow to KP's plan, as he had stated that he hoped Toronto would maintain a First Division club: Lynx dropping a couple of levels October 10, 2006 TORONTO (CP) -- Facing competition from an expansion Major League Soccer team, the Toronto Lynx are leaving the first division of the United Soccer League to join the Premier Development League in 2007. The PDL is one step below the USL's second division. Other Canadian PSL teams are the Ottawa Fury, Thunder Bay Chill and Abbotsford Rangers. "Moving the Lynx to the PDL makes a lot of sense," Bruno Hartrell, the team's chief financial officer and part-owner, said in a statement Tuesday. "It allows the club to direct its resources to continue building the solid base necessary for continued growth." Toronto FC, owned by Maple Leafs Sports & Entertainment, is slated to begin play in MLS next year. The Lynx, along with the Toronto Lady Lynx who play in the W-League, will continue to play at Centennial Park Stadium in Toronto's west end. The Lynx decision to leave the USL first division leaves the Vancouver Whitecaps and Montreal Impact as the only Canadian teams. The Whitecaps won the 12-club league this season. There were nine teams in the USL second division. The Lynx spent 10 seasons in the A-League and USL first division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Did KP really believe/think they would? This would have been an ideal opportunity to keep a reserve team in USL-1. At least to give it a try... but this is MLSE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Well I believed that they would move to a new city, not drop out. Maybe he had the same feelings as me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Thistle Did KP really believe/think they would? This would have been an ideal opportunity to keep a reserve team in USL-1. At least to give it a try... but this is MLSE. Two completely separate and independent business entities. If one or both are not interested in co-operating then nothing will happen and each will continue their own independent ways. We have no way of knowing at this point to what extent if anything the CSA strove to have the two businesses work something out. Kevan Pipe may well have been told to go away and mind his own business. This is somewhat analagous to what happens to small businesses when WalMart moves into town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Toronto Lynx a costly labour of love NEIL DAVIDSON Canadian Press Toronto — The Toronto Lynx have been a labour of love for Bruno and Nicole Hartrell. A costly one. Bruno Hartrell estimates he and his wife have lost some $4 million in the 10 years they have operated the soccer franchise. That's a lot of red ink on a team whose franchise fee was a modest $50,000 a decade ago. "And it's just wasted," Hartrell lamented in an interview. With Toronto FC, an expansion franchise in Major League Soccer, set to kick off in a brand new stadium next year, Hartrell says he couldn't even give away the USL team now. "They've put us out of the pro soccer business," he said. Hartrell compares it to The Home Depot opening up down the street from a corner hardware store. "You could stay in business just out of pride, but you'd never been able to compete with these guys." So the Hartrells are downsizing their losses — and their franchise. The Lynx announced this week they are leaving the first division of the United Soccer Leagues to join the Premier Development League in 2007. That's two tiers below their current level — and a world away from MLS. The Lady Lynx will continue to play in the W-League. And the Lynx will operate eight youth boys' and girls' team. "The smart thing for us is just to focus on the base, which we've got, which doesn't cost a lot to run, which can actually make money. And then wait it out to see if they (MLS) sticks around," Hartrell said. The Lynx men's roster become free agents, signalling the end of a senior side that produced the likes of Canadian stars Paul Stalteri (Tottenham, England) and Dwayne DeRosario (Houston, MLS) along with fellow internationals Adrian Serioux (Houston, MLS), Atiba Hutchinson (FC Copenhagen, Denmark) and Chris Pozniak (Haugesund FK, Norway). Despite the setbacks, the 56-year-old Hartrell is not bitter. In fact, he almost sees the glass half-full, enthusiastically talking about plans for the Lady Lynx and all the franchise's developmental teams. He cites planned new stadiums at the University of Toronto, York University and McMaster. With new partners, who knows what the future holds? The Hartrells' soccer dream is not yet over. But theirs is a cautionary tale, another in a long list of soccer hard luck stories in Canada. At the beginning of the Lynx, the Hartrells had two partners and a decent, albeit decaying, downtown home in Varsity Stadium. Hopes were high as the partners agreed to put in $50,000 each, with perhaps another $50,000 needed down the line. Hartrell says together the partners lost $2.5 million for the 1997, 1998 and 1999 seasons, with his losses amounting to a "million and a little bit." At the beginning, they thought it would take five years to get the finances in order — projecting collective losses of $1 million over that period. "We lost in one year what we thought we'd lose in five. It was that bad." Not surprisingly, the partnership dissolved. Still the Hartrells kept at it. "From 2000 to 2006, pretty much (we lost) almost $3 million of my own and Nicole's money," Hartrell said. Did friends and family tell them to get out of it? "Every year," said Hartrell, adding his accounting partners said: "'You're crazy. Don't go back."' So why stick with it? "I'm not smart enough," he said. "I mean that." Hartrell runs a small accounting firm, but he and his wife also have real estate interests that have helped fund the Lynx losses. While he hasn't enjoyed losing the money, he says he will survive. "If I have to retire I'm OK," he said, adding "but I couldn't afford a soccer team." Hartrell had hoped his team could find a new stadium home and stand tall as the top soccer club in the city, with Lynx ownership reaping the rewards if the franchise was ever sold. The stadium came, but with another team attached. And Toronto FC arrived with a deep-pocketed owner in Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment that has extensive sponsorship and marketing ties. "The regret is that we spent so much time and money at it and basically weren't able to grow to our expectations," Hartrell said. "Even though we're left with a very solid base which we expect to continue to grow and we expect to stay in soccer a long time if we're healthy enough." Knowing an MLS team was coming, Hartrell said he considered all options for his team. "Including trying to get more investors to back USL 1 (soccer). But you can imagine we weren't doing well without MLS. And nobody can see how you're going to do well with them. "No one that I could find in the city was willing to put up money in any form or fashion. Basically I was willing to give away the USL 1 franchise if someone would back most of it." The USL champion Vancouver Whitecaps and Montreal Impact are now Canada's lone teams in the USL first division, which according to Hartrell now charges a franchise fee of US$350,000. Other Canadian PDL teams are the Ottawa Fury, Thunder Bay Chill and Abbotsford Rangers. The Lynx men expect to play in the Great Lakes division, facing teams from Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Hartrell said he looked at playing in the USL second division but the savings didn't warrant it. He reckons costs will drop by at least $500,000 by moving from the USL first division to PDL, compared to just $150,000 from USL first division to second. The PDL plays 12 games a season compared to 28 for the USL first division (and 24 for the second division). There's no payroll in PDL, which uses collegiate players who get a travel per diem. There's also no air travel, just buses. The Lynx spent $300,000 on payroll last season and $95,000 on travel. Next year, the payroll will be zero and the travel $25,000. League fees drop to $8,000 from $35,000. "There's corresponding reductions in every budget line," Hartrell said. Last season, the budget for the men's team was just under $1 million: $300,000 for player payroll (an average player made $2,500 a month for six months), $50,000 for coaches, $250,000 to the front office, $150,000 for travel (air, bus and per diems) and "the rest just adds up." The total budget for the PDL team will be about $175,000. Compare that to MLS, whose salary cap is US$1.9 million this season. At its last season in Varsity Stadium in 2000, the Lynx drew crowds of 11,000 to some games — most paying, even if they were $4 tickets. This season, the Lynx averaged less than 2,000 en route to an 8-12-8 record and 10th place in the 12-team league. Sponsorships also ebbed and flowed, with Hartrell saying the federal government's sponsorship scandal having an effect on his team when the plug was pulled on that money. The Lynx will continue to play at Centennial Park Stadium in Toronto's west end. If the MLS wasn't in Toronto and the Lynx found a new home, Hartrell said he would have kept going at a higher level. But that didn't happen. "The Lynx is like a fickle girlfriend," Hartrell said. "It showed signs of life and everything was going good . . ." The love affair is not over for the Hartrells. But realism has replaced romance. "We did our bit," said Hartrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury At its last season in Varsity Stadium in 2000, the Lynx drew crowds of 11,000 to some games Ha! That made me laugh out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yeah, pretty one-sided puff piece. Am I the only one who think that there's some sort of tax purpose for the Lynx, because I'm surprised small-time business people would be willing to consistently and innevitably lose so much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well $4 million over 10 years is an average annual loss of $400k. That's probably equivalent to the salary and benefits drawn by one of the partners in the Hartrell's "small accounting firm" and undoubtedly also a tax writeoff. They also enjoy real estate interests. Whilst I admire their philanthropy I won't be crying in my beer for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Richard Well $4 million over 10 years is an average annual loss of $400k. That's probably equivalent to the salary and benefits drawn by one of the partners in the Hartrell's "small accounting firm" and undoubtedly also a tax writeoff. They also enjoy real estate interests. Whilst I admire their philanthropy I won't be crying in my beer for them. Think I can echo that. The money they've lost, real or on paper, I'm going to guess is largely money which they'd have had to pay out to one way or another. Revenue Canada. USL Toronto Lynx. Doesn't matter. It was money they were going to loose at the end of the day. God Bless Them though for arranging it so the moneys went toward football in Toronto. No matter what the short comings. They've been an important part of football in the Toronto market for a decade now whether we've like it or not and deserve at least a hardy handshake and a slap on the back for their efforts. Best of luck in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Richard Well $4 million over 10 years is an average annual loss of $400k. That's probably equivalent to the salary and benefits drawn by one of the partners in the Hartrell's "small accounting firm" and undoubtedly also a tax writeoff. They also enjoy real estate interests. Whilst I admire their philanthropy I won't be crying in my beer for them. Think I can echo that. The money they've lost, real or on paper, I'm going to guess is largely money which they'd have had to pay out to one way or another. Revenue Canada. USL Toronto Lynx. Doesn't matter. It was money they were going to loose at the end of the day. God Bless Them though for arranging it so the moneys went toward football in Toronto. No matter what the short comings. They've been an important part of football in the Toronto market for a decade now whether we've like it or not and deserve at least a hardy handshake and a slap on the back for their efforts. Best of luck in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 "I'm not smart enough," he said. "I mean that." At least he's honest about it. Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share Posted October 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta God Bless Them though for arranging it so the moneys went toward football in Toronto. No matter what the short comings. They've been an important part of football in the Toronto market for a decade now whether we've like it or not and deserve at least a hardy handshake and a slap on the back for their efforts. Best of luck in the future. I'm with you totally on this. I'm also very happy to see that they will survive, albeit the PDL. In the long run, this may be a better move. Stay small, focus on building the club at the youth level, and who knows what the future will hold. Hopefully they will be around for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta The money they've lost, real or on paper, I'm going to guess is largely money which they'd have had to pay out to one way or another. Revenue Canada. USL Toronto Lynx. Doesn't matter. It was money they were going to loose at the end of the day. God Bless Them though for arranging it so the moneys went toward football in Toronto. No matter what the short comings. Are you guys serious? No business person likes LOSSES or TAXES. People are in business to make money, and the philantrophy can only extend itself to a certain extent. Sponsors like Sony, Telus, and CIBC advertise for a reason and support their communities other than a tax deduction or a charitable receipt. I rather think the Hartells seriously believe in GTA soccer, and to a certain extent, Canadian soccer. It may be stupid, but I attribute that to passion for the game. As for supporters of the "corporate tax shelter theory", I submit to them that there are better tax shelters out there than losses in a USL franchise. Anyone else you know like to lose $400k per year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I suggest there are plenty of people around willing to spend $400k and more on an avocation, especially if most of it can be from money that would otherwise have gone to the government as tax. They're going to pay out the money, or most of it, either way. Now if a business is not making a nett profit before tax (referring to the Hartrell's accounting and real estate operations, not the Lynx) then there are no tax liabilities against which to write off such expenditures but clearly this is not the case with the Hartrells. This is in no way intended to belittle the investment they have made in the Lynx over the years - soccer in Canada could use more philanthropists like the Hartrells for sure - just that I suggest the $4 million Mr. Hartrell talks about 'losing' over ten years has not sent him to the poor house, neither has it had any major impact on his quality of life or the wellbeing of his other businesses. He clearly has enjoyed his involvement with the USL and the Lynx, or he would not have stuck with it this long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I suggest there are plenty of people around willing to spend $400k and more on an avocation, especially if most of it can be from money that would otherwise have gone to the government as tax. They're going to pay out the money, or most of it, either way. Now if a business is not making a nett profit before tax (referring to the Hartrell's accounting and real estate operations, not the Lynx) then there are no tax liabilities against which to write off such expenditures but clearly this is not the case with the Hartrells. This is in no way intended to belittle the investment they have made in the Lynx over the years - soccer in Canada could use more philanthropists like the Hartrells for sure - just that I suggest the $4 million Mr. Hartrell talks about 'losing' over ten years has not sent him to the poor house, neither has it had any major impact on his quality of life or the wellbeing of his other businesses. He clearly has enjoyed his involvement with the USL and the Lynx, or he would not have stuck with it this long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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