dbailey62 Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Clubs like Toronto Croatia and St Catherines Roma have been doing that for years in the C[P]SL. You clearly have an agenda because that isn't even an issue. They've also been playing in a league that was a combination of ethnic and non-ethnic clubs and that is what they should be doing now. db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 "...a league that was a combination of ethnic and non-ethnic clubs and that is what they should be doing now." Exactly, my objection is the whole premise of the CSL's ethnic division. An ethnically neutral league with one or two teams amongst many who may be sponsored by cultural organisations is very different from a domestic league explicitly designed from the outset to be exclusively inter-ethnic to take advantage of ethno-cultural animosities and rivalries for questionable fiscal reasons. The former can work and does, all over the place at all levels, the latter I personally find offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Robin Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 So calling it the Toronto Division because the five ethnic teams all play in Toronto or just outside the city limits would whitewash the problem? Once the playoffs start the eight teams that made it will all be thrown back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 A domestic league that purports to be professional and has national aspirations such as the CSL should hold itself neutral and be playing down inter-ethnic differences, not highlighting and exploiting them. I have no problem with a neutral division that integrates into the mainstream a few teams that are sponsored by cultural organisations but this kind of 'international division' where the entire division comprises clubs differentiated by ethnicity, where the whole premise is the exploitation for financial gain of ethno-cultural rivalries and animosities and where a good proportion of the spectators are clearly there to revel in or even perpetrate violence is just plain offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rocket Robin So calling it the Toronto Division because the five ethnic teams all play in Toronto or just outside the city limits would whitewash the problem? Once the playoffs start the eight teams that made it will all be thrown back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rocket Robin Once the playoffs start the eight teams that made it will all be thrown back together. Worth noting they've also been playing games between the two divisions during the regular season as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Warning: Black Humour: Cue the Sound Effect from SCTV's 3D horror film shows A modest proposal inspired from Winnipeg Fury's quote below: quote:I love you guys that use multiculturism as a thinly veiled excuse to propagate hatred and ethnic ignorance. Eh, I've got a great idea for the CPSL. Why not get a Korean team and a Japanese team ! Attendance is sure to increase ! Think how large the gate will be for the CPSL ! Mr. Kaplan, my proposed international division for next year, designed to attract large crowds and great heated passionate rivalries: Serbian White Eagles Toronto Croatia Italia Shooters Toronto Supra Portuguese Caribbean Selects Zionist FC (a new meaning to aerial fly by's from fighter jets) Hezbollah FC (to hell with Roman Candles - hello Katyushas) Tamil Tigers FC Sri Lanka FC FARC FC Columbian Right Wing George Bush CIA Supported Government FC Cocaine Cartels FC (somehow these guys always seem to contribute more to Republican coffers than the other two Columbian teams) NATO FC FC Taliban China Red Star FC Tibet (not only do they get the **** kicked out of them every game by opposing fans they lose every game because they refuse to score goals though when their goalie set himself on fire as a protest it did win some respect from other teams) Haitian Gangs Who Support Aristide FC Haitian Gangs Who Don't Support Aristide FC (both Haitian teams really know how to get those tire bonfires going in the stands) FC Moscow Red Army (aerial fly by's very similar to Zionist FC even though they hate Jews despite half of them being Jewish - the similarity in tactics results in every FCM ZFC game being a 0-0 draw) FC Chechnia/Dagestan (team tactics include sending their wives to blow up the Red Army plane and if that doesn't work you can always kill all their children) One from the recent past that is just looking for an excuse in Toronto to get everything back to the good ol days: FCIRA (aka Celtic Glascow) FCUnionist (aka Glasgow Rangers) The Best Rivalry of All FCUSA against their rival FC The Rest of the F-U-CKIN World And just to keep a bit of Canadian content: Quebec Separatist FC Central Ontario Squareheads FC (aka TFC) Alienated Right Wing Western (actually it is only really Alberta but they think the West is only them) Bush Sympathizers FC Alienated British Columbia Pot Sympathizers FC (Like always the Maritime provinces are completely ignored and don't get an FC of their own so have to choose one of the above 4 teams to support) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by CSL Commissioner All, The CSL will not tolerate violence or intimidation at any of our games. For the Serbian-Croatia matches, in particular the most recent one, we had 30 security guards, 8 police officers, a ban on flares and fireworks and a thorough frisking of all patrons, and several security meetings. We made a sincere and aggressive effort to provide a safe environment. Unfortunately, the game still produced a volitile atmosphere, which is totally unacceptable. We are proud of the international division in Toronto in general, and believe firmly in the concept. The league has had a very strong season in a number of areas both on and off the field, not the least of which was roughly 50,000 fans through the turnstiles; we look forward to an exciting and well attended playoffs, but irrespective of the crowds or the dollars resulting from the Serbia-Croatia matches, safety will remain our top concern. All the clubs, and the 12 CSL ownership groups, including those of the Serbian White Ealges and Toronto Croatia are committed to providing great soccer to our fans in a family friendly environment. We remain steadfast in our committment to this objective. Cary Kaplan Commissioner Canadian Soccer League And what security measures are in place for spectators outside of the park ? We have already heard from Croat and Serb supporters alike, that there have been fist fights between the two groups outside the stadium. As well as girls that have been spit-on for being from the wrong ethnic group. This is completely unacceptable. If these antics continue, what penalties are in place for the clubs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury And what security measures are in place for spectators outside of the park ? We have already heard from Croat and Serb supporters alike, that there have been fist fights between the two groups outside the stadium. As well as girls that have been spit-on for being from the wrong ethnic group. They may not have been part of the official security but the shenanigans did compel the Toronto police to arrive. Maybe the CSL should use the following video as an advertisement for their international division games. For a slogan they could use: CSL Soccer - International Atmosphere - Bring Your Whole Family and Enjoy the Excitement (hey its better than It's going to be huge) Video of CSL Post-Game Entertainment: http://www.speedyshare.com/data/729532985/559750/44987953/Tuca.wmv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly One from the recent past that is just looking for an excuse in Toronto to get everything back to the good ol days: FCIRA (aka Celtic Glascow) FCUnionist (aka Glasgow Rangers) Well having experienced what it's like to have 20 to 30 drunken followers of the former outside the house on a Lanarkshire council scheme singing their various odes to terrorism as my father's family were known to be Protestant (neither Unionist or Rangers supporting FWIW) I definitely wouldn't describe that as the "good ol days" but that was caused by social problems that ran a lot deeper than a soccer rivalry. Having experienced the reality of what ethnic clubs are actually like in Canada I find it completely ridiculous that someone would even try to make that parallel to be honest. It doesn't spill over into real life here away from the stadium/field because of the multicultural nature of Canadian society. Make the one game that is causing a bit of a problem all ticket for home supporters only or play it behind closed doors and the problem of various looney tunes showing up who are not there primarily to watch the game is solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Well having experienced what it's like to have 20 to 30 drunken followers of the former outside the house on a Lanarkshire council scheme singing their various odes to terrorism as my father's family were known to be Protestant (neither Unionist or Rangers supporting FWIW) I definitely wouldn't describe that as the "good ol days". Having experienced the reality of what ethnic clubs are actually like in Canada I find it completely ridiculous that someone would even try to make that parallel to be honest. It doesn't spill over into real life here away from the stadium/field because of the multicultural nature of Canadian society. Make the one game that is causing a bit of a problem all ticket for home supporters only or play it behind closed doors and the problem is solved. Have you ever heard of the word sarcasm? As far as the comparison goes, until the creation of the international division most ethnic clubs in Canada were small amateur clubs with no fans and relatively harmless. Watch some of the videos from the game though and these are the types of scenes one sees regularly in Europe including the Glascow derby. It might not be as bad as that yet but it is certainly in this vein. In fact, Celtic and Rangers are a prime example of why ethnic clubs are wrong and dangerous though in their case the division is made on religion not ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Make your mind up whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are making the parallel. I've experienced both environments and think you are getting a bit hysterical to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 It is pretty obvious that the whole post you are referring to is sarcastic. It is also clear that what we have seen in the three TC-SWE matches has not been a positive development for Canadian soccer. Now if unfurling a banner with a murderous Nazi collaborator and chants from both sides calling each other Gypsies doesn't bother you or remind you of the a portion of the fans in the Glascow derbies I guess you are just a lot more tolerant of neo-Nazi hooligans than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly .....Now if unfurling a banner with a murderous Nazi collaborator and chants from both sides calling each other Gypsies doesn't bother you.... End of conversation. I find that insinuation grossly offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard End of conversation. I find that insinuation grossly offensive. Well you brought it on yourself. You know what happened at the game and continue to downplay it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 The line of argument being used by those who want to use a few isolated incidents to ban all ethnic clubs from participating in mainstream soccer leagues in this country is much the same as calling for the NDP to be banned because they have sometimes called themselves socialist just like Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard The line of argument being used by those who want to use a few isolated incidents to ban all ethnic clubs from participating in mainstream soccer leagues in the country is much the same as calling for the NDP to be banned because they have sometimes called themselves socialist just like Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot. And you criticize me for making ridiculous comparisons. Where has anyone said that all ethnic clubs should be banned? Not even Richard has stated anything close to that. I will state I don't think ethnic hatreds should be exploited by professional soccer leagues to boost attendance. I also think that clubs and leagues that have violent, racist fans should be sanctioned and if they do not reform then banning them would be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 He writes, "In fact, Celtic and Rangers are a prime example of why ethnic clubs are wrong and dangerous..." then later turns around and tries to claim that banning ethnic clubs from mainstream leagues in this country is not on his agenda and claims to be unable to see the parallel with a line of reasoning like "In fact, Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot are prime examples of why socialism is wrong and dangerous....". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Well I'll be more exact about my agenda, I am against clubs with violent and/or racist fans. Not all such clubs are ethnic but certainly there is a tendency among the big professional ethnic clubs to gravitate to this extreme. Celtic and Rangers are certainly good examples of this. It is great the passion that their fans have but one can certainly do without the sectarian racism, ties to terrorist organizations and the fan deaths that seem to occur from time to time. I am not saying that Celtic and Rangers should be banned either, only that this is not a good example for Canadian soccer to follow. If these clubs behave themselves then noone can complain, just like if TC and SWE behave themselves there wouldn't be much to complain about even if I wouldn't support them because I can't identify with such a team. As far as playing in an established professional league, even well behaved ethnic teams do not seem like the way forward in Canada because this ethnic focus limits the fan potential significantly. At 1500-2000 fans SWE is probably at their maximum fan potential which may be good for a low level league like CSL but is not sufficient for anything higher. In the three TC-SWE games we have seen fan violence, stadium damage, police intervention, racist chants from both sets of fans, racist chants against players and neo-Nazi banners unfurled. It is hard to understand why you seem to have such a hard time condemning this and claim that everyone who condemns it has a hidden agenda. If other ethnic clubs are peaceful than they have every right to continue though I and probably a great number of other soccer fans will not support them. In this case two rival ethnic groups with a history of violence were brought together in a division to increase attendance at CSL games with fairly predictable results and this should be condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Make your mind up whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are making the parallel. You must have missed the "Warning: Black Humour" disclaimer at the beginning of his post. It was definitely easy to miss, being the first three words of the post, and all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi You must have missed the "Warning: Black Humour" disclaimer at the beginning of his post. It was definitely easy to miss, being the first three words of the post, and all... No I didn't miss it. Don't think you quite grasp what "black humour" is all about. There is an element of hyperbole involved which helps to illustrate an underlying serious theme. I addressed the underlying serious theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly ....In the three TC-SWE games we have seen fan violence, stadium damage, police intervention, racist chants from both sets of fans, racist chants against players and neo-Nazi banners unfurled. It is hard to understand why you seem to have such a hard time condemning this.... I demand an immediate retraction and apology for that remark. This kind of smear tactic is completely unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I demand an immediate retraction and apology for that remark. This kind of smear tactic is completely unacceptable. In all of these threads I have not seen you condemn these actions once. You have made a lot of excuses for them and tried to downplay them but nowhere did you condemn them. Several other people pointed this out as well and you demanded retractions for their statements just like here but nowhere did you say I condemn these actions. If you do condemn these actions then why not come out and say it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 It's time for a moderator to step in IMO. I have already stated in this thread, "There is no way the sorts of incidents described by people on here can become the norm. If they do become the norm then fines won't be enough IMO. Games could also be made all ticket for home supporters only." I am nauseated by the behaviour of this poster and demand that he immediately retracts these smears and apologizes for the offence that it has caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 The indignation!!! This thread makes me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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