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Serbia and Toronto Croatia


soccerfan01

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Have it your way River City, I have said my piece. In the grand scheme of things I really don't care as I don't have to have anything to do with your pet CSL 'international division' that does nothing but condemn the CSL to mickey mouse regional ethnic status. Just for info, I too am a landed immigrant (though a naturalised Canadian citizen and proud of it - no dual citizeship), part of an ethnic minority and lived for 17 years in Toronto/Ottawa before moving to Vancouver. I know of what I speak.

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Have it your way River City, I have said my piece. In the grand scheme of things I really don't care as I don't have to have anything to do with your pet CSL 'international division' that does nothing but condemn the CSL to mickey mouse regional ethnic status. Just for info, I too am a landed immigrant (though a naturalised Canadian citizen and proud of it - no dual citizeship), part of an ethnic minority and lived for 17 years in Toronto/Ottawa before moving to Vancouver. I know of what I speak.

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Posted - 09/26/2006 : 23:48:28

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All,

The CSL will not tolerate violence or intimidation at any of our games.

For the Serbian-Croatia matches, in particular the most recent one, we had 30 security guards, 8 police officers, a ban on flares and fireworks and a thorough frisking of all patrons, and several security meetings. We made a sincere and aggressive effort to provide a safe environment. Unfortunately, the game still produced a volitile atmosphere, which is totally unacceptable.

We are proud of the international division in Toronto in general, and believe firmly in the concept. The league has had a very strong season in a number of areas both on and off the field, not the least of which was roughly 50,000 fans through the turnstiles; we look forward to an exciting and well attended playoffs, but irrespective of the crowds or the dollars resulting from the Serbia-Croatia matches, safety will remain our top concern.

All the clubs, and the 12 CSL ownership groups, including those of the Serbian White Ealges and Toronto Croatia are committed to providing great soccer to our fans in a family friendly environment.

We remain steadfast in our committment to this objective.

Cary Kaplan

Commissioner

Canadian Soccer League

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"Unfortunately, the game still produced a volitile atmosphere"

Well what did you expect?!!!

Good luck to you Mr. Commissioner. I regret that in the long term your decision to pursue this ethno-cultural based conference will prove to be a bad idea for the CSL and its aspirations to spread its business model across the country. You are engendering ill-feeling and disrespect by pursuing this divisive approach in a domestic league which will work against the CSL in the long run.

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I guess you must be very proud of these videos Francetic. The second one is particularly bad with the Croatian Ustachi chant which they followed with the chant calling the Serbs Gypsies (and yes I am sure the Serb chants were of a similar nature). Disgraceful and there is no place for this in Canada.

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i wanna know where are some pictures of the croatian side holding up the NAZI FALG (GENERAL) so i can put it in the newspapers....... if anybody any body can come up wuith this picture please give it to me ........ like what u croats did in italy made a human swastika niceee.... well see how far this picture gets when i get it !!!!! cant wait!

somebody please e-mail me this pic

boliglava_@hotmail.com

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quote:Originally posted by Dok je srca bitce Croatie

You know i really wanted to stay outa this and just remain a 'spectator' on the forum but my principals would not permit me to do so after balkanboys dis-information and propaganda rant to twist the minds of others who may not know better.

Why do serbs always feel the need to play the victim card? This is the last place i though id find this sort of behaviour. Funny how the serbs the only nation in the world which celebrates its defeats, kosovo anyone? The whole world finally fell off its deaf ears in the 1990s and discovered what the serbian nation is all about, war after war genocide after genocide (4 waged wars in the 90s, all 4 lost), soomething the Croatians and other ethnic groups have been dealing with for almost a century. The so called allied nature of the Cetniks is a sham as they were as fascist as you can get, vying to unite all serbs into one state (which they did in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia aka Greater Serbia in 1918-39, and later in 45-90 under the proxy yugoslav name) while violently wiping out any oposition to Serbian hegemony to the groups who stood in their way of their expansionist dreams. Any Croatian political, cultural, social and economic institutions were disbanded and violently extinguished all in the name of a Serbian dictatorship under Karadjordjevic's crown. Croatian Patriots were routinely beaten, jailed and killed simply for thier right of self determination , even Einstein commented on their plight and the nature of the Serb regime after notable intellectuals such as Milan Sufflay were murdered . The Ustasa which means insurgent or upriser was a reaction to this despotic serbian rule long before any nazi goose stepped along.

Do not be fooled the geo political nature on exyu during ww2 was an utter mess. Serbs like to play the card of the ' allies' and distort reality but Cetniks collaborated with german and italians invaders as much as anyone if not more. Armed by italians fascists cetnik hordes would raid Croatian villages leaving a trail of blood everywhere they went. Countless towns throughout Croatian and Bosnia Hercegovina attest to this as the drina ran red with blood at Foca. Dont believe me how about Nikola Kalabic letter to the Nazis about receiving arms http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/kalabic.jpg or pavle djurisic with nazi and fascist occupiers and the rest of these documents and pictures to show you just how allied these serbs were. http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5585/pic2mo1.jpg You have a problem with the letter -U- well we have a problem with cetnik skull n crossbones which bloodied our land in ww2 and in this war, vukovar anyone who can ever forget the serb troops under their skull crossbones standard singing send us salad slobo there will be meet we will be slaughting Croats http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/_1944__majevica__stevan_damjanovic.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/djurisic.jpg http://www.geocities.com/telescope_h/nemchet.jpg http://www.geocities.com/telescope_h/stanisic.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/cetniksaNijemcima1.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/d09d1c24.jpg or most absurd of all a letter from your very own draza mihailovic to cardinal stepinac pleaing for an alliance with Croatians. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/PismoDMnadbiskupuStepincu.jpg Serbs will always try to atach the stigma of ndh but just about every occupied state in europe had a regime and citizens friendly to the axis, yet it is the Croats which are constantly dealt a brunt of the blame for what the nazis inflicted upon the whole world, Pavelic and the Ustase did not have the liberty of picking their allies and no one would hear their plight and calls as when someone is knocking down your jail (yugoslavia) you do not ask who is doing it as the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Need i remind u of Nazi pupet serb Serbia and General Nedic and his triumphant proclamation of Belgrade as the first JudeinFrei (no jews) city in europe, emphasized by this serb postage stamp? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/7/77/PostanskeMarkiceokupiranaSrbija.jpg

And your #s of deaths are preposterous. Scholars from both sides who have extensively studied pre and post war demographics agree that around 1. Mill ppl died on the territory of exyu during the war from all sides (zerjavic and kocovic), and the hardest hit areas % drop and highest extent of emigrats demographically were Croat dinaric regions (not including the post war massacres on Croats whose scale are unparamount in modern times, in which british archives on the matter intended to be opened 35 years ago remain sealed). Secondary sources carelessly parroted from other secondary sources to another, Myths, fables, and deliberate propaganda to paint the entire Croatian nation and any adherence of Croatian nationalism and statehood as fascist and genocidal is nothing but a contination of the yugo communist propaganda policy which was in effect for 50+ years to justify its own artifial existence, denying the 1300 year old National tradition of the Croats and to hide the blood from their own hands (Bleiburg, Way of the Cross, Goli Otok and countless other jails, and UDBA kill missions). I apologize to the rest of the forumites for this rant but i cannot let such **** go on unquestioned.

And then some wonder why Toronto Croatia and hundreds of other Croatian clubs worldwide came into existence in the first place as they were not only to fulfill a sporting/social role and unify Croats but be a political voice and a beaken in the free world that Croatia exists and that the fire will not die, while at home in the yugo dictatorship uttering 'Long Live Croatia' was the higest state crime which landed you hard time or worse.

The simple fact is now that the homeland is free much of the fire and nationalist ferver which drove this club to the top of soccer on this continent has died down, Croats have moved on and are quite content with their homeland free from greater serbian tyranny and here in Canada living peacefully in the multicultural mosaic and enriching soccer across the country. The days of when we had something to fight for in for instance 70s and early 90s are long done AS THE HOMELAND IS FREE NOW and we are for the most part 1st and 2nd generation whos parents came in the 60s 70s and just really love soccer and our Toronto Croatia. While it is on occassion the serbian complexes which drive us to more agressive behaviour. I have been to all the games and have seen the atmoshphere progressiely get worse and the crowds get bigger and it all started with the lighing of Croatian flags on fire in the first game and the stoning of our stand/spectators after the game which naturally send tensions ablaze and hightened interest with every game, with people who would regularily not be at a game showup. This in an age when the most important problem of old (artificial state called yugo-slave-ia is dead) is settled and we have separate states which will hopefully in the future co exist in peace.

Toronto Croatia has been a staple of quality soccer in this country for Decades and is highly respected. Many national titles and the North American leage title of 76' beating the likes of pele and the cosmos attests to this. We did not come outa nowhere much like the amateur white eagles have with their new fancy coach sekularac, newfound capital, investment on foreign players and fan support which by the looks of it is largely made of fresh deports from the war in the 90s with frustrated complexes and an axe to grind, namely against Croats. The way i see it the white seagulls and the whole ultra serb tifo group is just a novelty which will die off as any new fad does.

And for those of you bashing 'ethnics', had there of been no 'ethnics'(namely the post ww2 generation migration) thered be no soccer in this country and a hell of a lot more of hockey and lacrosse. For all you 'ethnic' haters, It really must suck during the world cup having no links and ur heart beating for no one, so u opt like the masses and adopt brazilian yellow. I know i wont get many fans with my next reply but How can you build ONE national identity when the whole basis of our identity was a split anglo-franco one and is now a multicultural one, our country is not even 2 centures old (bloodlines and ties to the land and ur kin which go over generations, inveitably mean more than a a tie to someone though a citizenship paper which can be adopted by anyone,anywhere) has already existing regional and cultural faultlines and whose modern identity is pregressively being built around not being American? Blood is not water.

TORONTO CROATIA, PROUD SINCE 1956 and not going anywhere

Croatia.gif

1956

TC%201956.gif

1975 metros croatia and pele

MC%201975%20Pele.jpg

1976 government of ontario award to tor cro

MC%201976%20Ont%20Preimer.jpg

by the way buddie my grandpa was a chetnik im born and raised in CANADA and im a proud canadian citizen but when u come up with whole bunch of bull**** like we killed u guys ya well prob we did but hey

atleast ur grandperents hosue didnt get burnt down in the 1990 1991 krajina war alright so how bout u go study and work on something or go sit in a corner u dont know great all about history or anything ya i prob do have alot of spelling mistakes becasue im pissed off what my great grandfather told me how he was in the war born in 1904 and told me whole bunch of stories i will never repay or give a hand to any croatian in my life i respect croatians that are born here but these ones that come over here and that dont like me becasue im a Canadian Serb well they can suck my dick !

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quote:Originally posted by boliglava

by the way buddie my grandpa was a chetnik im born and raised in CANADA and im a proud canadian citizen but when u come up with whole bunch of bull**** like we killed u guys ya well prob we did but hey

atleast ur grandperents hosue didnt get burnt down in the 1990 1991 krajina war alright so how bout u go study and work on something or go sit in a corner u dont know great all about history or anything ya i prob do have alot of spelling mistakes becasue im pissed off what my great grandfather told me how he was in the war born in 1904 and told me whole bunch of stories i will never repay or give a hand to any croatian in my life i respect croatians that are born here but these ones that come over here and that dont like me becasue im a Canadian Serb well they can suck my dick !

All of these posts clearly illustrate why these clubs should not be encouraged at the professional level. These posts are dripping with hatred and ignorance. There is no place for this in Canada, let alone at a Canadian soccer match. It is completely unacceptable.

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This thread merely reinforces my view that the CSL 'international division' is a bad, bad idea that will damage the CSL's prospects, will damage inter-ethnic relations in the country and damage Canadian soccer. It is also a clear illustration why real professional leagues will have nothing to do with this kind of stuff. Shame on the CSL.

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Guest francetic

why would you be in the parking lot alone( 2 girls)?????dumb move to begin with ! knowing the other fans are there or could be there!!!

dumb ciganski move !

nobody would do something that stupid to begin with

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how can people embrace multiculturalism and all that is canadian, and then go on to say to ban the international division all together

how does that make sense to contradict yourself in the same sentence, the international league will be a success, just as the numbers of pure fans have throw

had the police spent a little bit more time on the croatian side and outside of the stadium, there would be zero, i repeat zero problems

the stadium making sure that foreign objects werent being hurled into our side of the stadium everything could have been avoided

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if serbian white eagles were not at the top of the table, i guarantee this would not be a problem

if serbian white eagles did not have the greatest fan support in this league, i guarantee this would not be a problem

to say you are afraid to lose to the best is one thing

but to say this is a bad idea is another

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As some of you already said I must repeat it again I’ve been reading posts on this forum but lately I just can’t resist from adding my own which I believe will be the voice of reason. Yet again this post and all other cro/ser posts have gone off topic and into horrible wrong direction.

As a Croatia fan and member of this (ser/cro speaking) community I must say I am disgusted and ashamed of all things that happened on all previous three cro/ser soccer games. I am ashamed that all ugly and bad things have emerged and clearly been exposed all to see. I truly apologize to all of you. Canadian public didn’t deserve this by all means.

Accusations such as ‘they did that to us therefore we did this’ have no place on this forum. Please keep this civilized and show this people that we have something more than hate for each other. I am sure we all have reasons to hate each other because some things have been done in the past (on all sides), but that is beyond us and we should build better future without hate. So I repeat PLEASE keep your emotions down and keep this civilized.

As a sign of good gesture I am asking you not to talk about political issues anymore.

Also, I would like to say a few words about discussions regarding CSL and it’s ‘international division’. There are lots of posts regarding CSL and I must say that most of you are right but failed to see connection between the two and provide reasonable solutions. For development of soccer in Canada I must say that ethnic teams are bad idea but also at the same time that is all we got. Immigrants are the only one who keep soccer alive in Canada. If it wasn’t for them we would not have soccer at all. Canada has to embrace that and use in its own advantage. It is 100% doable, see Australian example. (those who are not familiar with it please do not comment). Soccer, on some reasonable pro level, has hard time surviving and what we need is some rivalry to keep it going. Mindless teams such as all pro sport teams in big NA leagues will not work for soccer. Soccer with moms and pops in stands will not work. Everybody knows that.

I 100% support ethnic teams in CSL but the way they are organized in ‘international division’ might be a bad idea because word ‘international’ implies that teams from other nations (outside of Canada) play in there. That’s why some people (especially from the out west) are ticked of. Simply, it gives wrong impression. All of you must know that Toronto Croatia (for example) is #1 Canadian, #2 team of Canadians of Croatian origin. Has no connection to anything that is not Canadian. This stands for all other ethnic teams. Also you must understand that as the time goes on and CSL grows up this ethnic element will slowly fade away. Teams will (most of them already are) be open to all players, not just it’s own ethnic group.

As some of you already said you must give credit to CSL for trying, they have good idea and I think it will work. I think they were unlucky to have two teams who don’t really like each other playing at the wrong time. (Serbian team coming into the picture at the time when ‘international division’ was formed). They kinda didn’t understand the whole situation prior to the games taking place. This is problem of two teams not whole ‘international division’. TC and SWE didn’t have problems playing other teams. Security needs to place right people into the right positions during the game not just stand there and observe. Fat police women have to place on or near soccer games of this character. Cops need to be on the stands (if it’s possible with K9’s) and on every sight of trouble take those perpetrators away and charge them. Same outside of the stadium. It’s not a rocket science.

And remember one thing. Situation with cro/ser teams does not reflect the situation in international division of CSL, nor CSL, nor Canada in general.

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quote:Originally posted by piksi10

how can people embrace multiculturalism and all that is canadian, and then go on to say to ban the international division all together

how does that make sense to contradict yourself in the same sentence, the international league will be a success, just as the numbers of pure fans have throw

had the police spent a little bit more time on the croatian side and outside of the stadium, there would be zero, i repeat zero problems

the stadium making sure that foreign objects werent being hurled into our side of the stadium everything could have been avoided

I love you guys that use multiculturism as a thinly veiled excuse to propagate hatred and ethnic ignorance.

Eh, I've got a great idea for the CPSL. Why not get a Korean team and a Japanese team ! Attendance is sure to increase ! Think how large the gate will be for the CPSL ! [}:)]

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For a league that holds itself up as professional to build a division exclusively on the basis of ethno-cultural rivalries and animosities with the sole object of increasing gate revenues is offensive.

There is a world of difference between a neutral league that plays down inter-ethnic differences, perhaps integrates a few clubs sponsored by cultural organisations into the mainstream and where the focus is on the quality of the game, and a league whose entire premise is to play up ethno-cultural animosities and rivalries in order to increase gate revenues and where a good proportion of the spectators are clearly there to perpetrate or delight in inter-ethnic violence. The former is perfectly acceptable and works all over the world. The latter is not.

There is also a world of difference between amateur recreational sport and this kind of thing at the professional level.

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I really dont know why this whole thing is a big deal, this happens all the time back home, and its not the end of the world! But whatever! This whole topic is a good and somewhat educational, so please keep going .. :)

There is some many posts here that I could respond to, but I really dont have time, although I will add that the guy under the name of "Dok je srca bitce Croatia" or something like that is full of bs. Your information is so wrong, that it stinks! Have you ever even seen a flag from Kraljevina Jugoslavija (1918-1940), if you have not, well guess what .. I have it right here for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia_%28state%29.svg

As you can see, that there is a serbian and a croatian flag together, you probably have never even seen this because your mind cant process this information. With all the hate you have build up inside of you towards Serbs, I guess we cant even blame you!

Wikpedia is one of the places where you can find the flag and little bit of history, but if you would like to know more, you are always welcome to ask so I can give you some history books so you can actually educate yourself, instead of writting some theories that you counclued on your own.

Here are couple of pics that I took from Serbian side, when there was a picture of ante pavelic spread on their side. The guy standing in front of the ante picture, 30sec prior of me taking the pic, was saluting in a "hail hitler" way.

http://www.speedyshare.com/510658642.html

Sorry my text is all over the place but I had to post this, so we can end all the crap! Give it a rest!

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Richard, sorry I wasnt very clear ... home USE to be in Former Yugoslavia, but as far as trouble at soccer matches, well, thats all over the Europe!

The group of people that we are refering here in posts are just a very small group of people, usually the same group that cause trouble at other events as well. For ex. out of 500 or so Croatians on their side only 20 or so were causing trouble, now when I say trouble I mean after the game in the parking lot.

This group of Croatians are the second generation and they are born and raised here in Canada. Their parents came to Canada during or after the WW2, so their kids are filled with hate towards Serbs, but thats ok, whatever! We dont like those Croatians anyway. On the other hand there are Croatians that came during the '90s war in Yugoslavia, and if those Croatians dont follow the path of what these previous Croatians have set, then they are communist Croatians, and they are not welcome into their community. These Ustasa Croatians as they like to call themselves, they sometimes get in figths with the newly arrived Croatians only for that reason, eventho most of the Ustasa Croats dont even speak proper or any Croatian, which is very sad!

But enough about them, the game was good, we scored 3 goals and thats what matters!

Cheers all!

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quote:Originally posted by Mikelandzelo

I really dont know why this whole thing is a big deal, this happens all the time back home, and its not the end of the world! But whatever! This whole topic is a good and somewhat educational, so please keep going .. :)

There is some many posts here that I could respond to, but I really dont have time, although I will add that the guy under the name of "Dok je srca bitce Croatia" or something like that is full of bs. Your information is so wrong, that it stinks! Have you ever even seen a flag from Kraljevina Jugoslavija (1918-1940), if you have not, well guess what .. I have it right here for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia_%28state%29.svg

As you can see, that there is a serbian and a croatian flag together, you probably have never even seen this because your mind cant process this information. With all the hate you have build up inside of you towards Serbs, I guess we cant even blame you!

Wikpedia is one of the places where you can find the flag and little bit of history, but if you would like to know more, you are always welcome to ask so I can give you some history books so you can actually educate yourself, instead of writting some theories that you counclued on your own.

Here are couple of pics that I took from Serbian side, when there was a picture of ante pavelic spread on their side. The guy standing in front of the ante picture, 30sec prior of me taking the pic, was saluting in a "hail hitler" way.

http://www.speedyshare.com/510658642.html

Sorry my text is all over the place but I had to post this, so we can end all the crap! Give it a rest!

Mike,

I have been trying to tell them about the BS, I even provided some solid facts on history in the former Jugoslavija with published refrences (check it out in the thread that was locked)

Anyways, they were defeated on the field and then they wanted to take it to the parking lot and they were defeated too.

I LIKEEEEE. I HOPE YOU LIKEEEEE

It would be great if we could meet in the finals!?

Zivela Srbija

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quote:Originally posted by Mikelandzelo

This group of Croatians are the second generation and they are born and raised here in Canada. Their parents came to Canada during or after the WW2, so their kids are filled with hate towards Serbs, but thats ok, whatever!

Cheers all!

This is what concerns me most. That the hate has been brought to canada where it can now take root. These young people will now teach their kids hate and so on. We're all Canadians here, yet kids like this will go back to school and look at their classmates and think "That f@cking Croat/Serb/Jew/Chinese etc" instead of "my fellow Canadian".

Hate snowballs out of control when it is left to fester.

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quote:Originally posted by hrv_toronto

For the next game with Croatia vs. Serbs i reccommend you guys sit on the Serbian side of the stands and hear what they say about the Croats especailly stand beside the huge serb with the skull and bones flag he is such a great guy ;).

I was one of the security guards during the game and must tell you the Serbian fans need to grow up. After the game the Serbian fans began throwing water bottles at the Croatian players while leaving the field and began spitting at them and the security and police had to stop them one security got a bottle in the head bad.

One other this is i dont blame the fans there will always be hatred between these people becasue they all know someone who lost somebudy during the recent war.The people who neede to be blamed for all this is the CSL. They wanted this and they got it just for and extra $2000 profit. The league is a joke people I cant wait until MLS.

are you kidding me with this comment??

first of all I need to clarify a few things for you, since you obviously have no idea what went on during or after the game.

Croats approached the Serb girls in the parking lot, and that started the whole thing..if the croat guys hadn't started spitting at the girls in the lot, moaybe nothing would have happend.

Then the croat fans in the lot pulled out the pepper spray (and as they were running away from the Serb fans) they were spraying them in the face.

If they brought the spray to the game, then they had the intention of using it already.

and another thing....The Croatian fans picked up rocks and started throwing them first, which in turn ignited the Serb fans to pick up anything they could find. eg. bottles. what do you expect?

And this is all because they were mad when they lost the game?

I just dont understand, if you lost, why didnt you just suck it up and go home?

no... instead you go into the parking lot and start throwing roman candles into the Serb stands, and on the Serb fans....(while the game was still going on!!!)

Someone should come sit on our side, and listen to our chants.....most of them are for THE TEAM!!! (which is the whole reason we are here.....to support the White Eagles, not to fight with other fans that are upset because their team is not as good!

Maybe if your fans we're there to support the TEAM, instead of fight with Serb fans.... and were cheering the team on, then maybe they could have gotten close to winning! (not likely)

Grow up!!!

we are here for the GAME, not for the fight (but if you ask for it, then you are gonna get it)

ULTRA-SERBS 2006

Orloviiiiiii, Orloviii...samo napred ORLOVI!!!

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