Serbia and Toronto Croatia

[hrv_toronto]

For the next game with Croatia vs. Serbs i reccommend you guys sit on the Serbian side of the stands and hear what they say about the Croats especailly stand beside the huge serb with the skull and bones flag he is such a great guy .

I was one of the security guards during the game and must tell you the Serbian fans need to grow up. After the game the Serbian fans began throwing water bottles at the Croatian players while leaving the field and began spitting at them and the security and police had to stop them one security got a bottle in the head bad.

One other this is i dont blame the fans there will always be hatred between these people becasue they all know someone who lost somebudy during the recent war.The people who neede to be blamed for all this is the CSL. They wanted this and they got it just for and extra $2000 profit. The league is a joke people I cant wait until MLS.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

i dont get why people have such a big problem with this ethnic stuff. thats what makes soccer fun. you guys just dont know how damn fun it is to have legitimate beefs with other groups and then take it out on the soccer field and in the stands. its cathartic. if the next time canada played the usa and we unfurled a huge anti-bush banner or something and then had flares being thrown back and forth and then there was a scuffle in the parking lot after the game, would everyone really think that was so morally wrong? please, it would be fun, and in my opinion, thats exactly what soccer in this country needs.

Now you're just trolling. This wasn't about passion for soccer. This was a hate-fest. The soccer didn't matter much to anyone.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by hrv_toronto

For the next game with Croatia vs. Serbs i reccommend you guys sit on the Serbian side of the stands and hear what they say about the Croats especailly stand beside the huge serb with the skull and bones flag he is such a great guy .

HRV, I won't bother to check out the Serb side. I know they are fully capable of matching the Croats for sheer ugliness. I don't want to attend another one of these matches.

I'm just so sad that the people who were most involved in the chanting and banner waving were youths. Young Canadians spewing hate at other young Canadians. Some of these kids have probably been to Cancun or Florida more times than they have to their parents' 'fatherland'.

My chant: "6 MONTHS TO THE MLS"

You'all know that Go West tune. Sing it loud boys, cuz CSL is bush league just like that old Croat gentleman correctly concluded.

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Now you're just trolling. This wasn't about passion for soccer. This was a hate-fest. The soccer didn't matter much to anyone.

never said it was about passion for soccer, i know it was about hate, im just saying soccer is just a way for people to blow off steam in a fun way.

croats and serbs will always hate eachother, genocide is not something you just get over with time. its good to let aggressions out via banners every once in a while. i come from Peru, and whenever we play Chile the war we had against them in 1879 always gets brought up like it happened yesterday, and theres always brawls after the game. thats life, you guys are too sheltered.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

never said it was about passion for soccer, i know it was about hate, im just saying soccer is just a way for people to blow off steam in a fun way.....you guys are too sheltered.

Nobody there really had any fun. The Serbs I saw after the game had grim faces such that you wouldn't know that they had just won 3-0. The feeling that exists between Chile and Peru is childs play compared to what was on display sunday night. That you could try to make that comparison tells me that you are the sheltered one my friend, not us.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

I love the finger pointing. They unfurled this so we did that. They shouted this so we burned that.

How about we let the battles of your fathers remain only your fathers and not your own and EVOLVE as a community. Start by leading the way and rise above.

Your report Rudi and Gooner was brilliant and disturbing all at the same time. Thank you for your research and sobering reality.

Sitting on the Croatian side for the Hamilton encounter, the Croats were NOT there for the game... at least the Serbs were, kinda sorta.

And I will concur that hate is unattractive. It's a waste to be a hater.

[BrennanFan]

i sincerely doubt nobody had fun, im sure there was more fun had at that one game that at all the games in the hisotry of the windsor border stars put together. in general the more heated the rivalry the better the atmosphere. seems like the racism/political and stuff didnt sit well with you and thats fine, but that stuff is a big part of many ppls lives and its normal for that to come out in soccer games.

and do you really think any aspect of a peru-chile match is childs play compared to what happened at a csl game at lamport? i'll just let that slide gooner, cuz i know the general point you have been trying to make. i know youd rather have 'soccer only passion' at these games similar to derbys in britain, but that just aint gonna happen here.

[BalkanBoy]

Let's get some things straight if your gonna comment on chants and flags please have an understanding of what they mean, Second I had a great time, why because for years I have been educating people on the history in the former Jugoslavija, and explaining how Ante Pavelic and the Nazi Croats killed 750 000 Serbs, one third of our population and will still didnt give up. No one beleives Serb when we tell them about our country. So many things have been documented and published about the Croats during WW2 but the "average joe" has no idea, beacuse all he know is what the American progaganda what him to, just like 9/11. This league is a great idea, trust me it is. It will bring more excitment, more fans, more revenue, more of what the CSL needs to expand. But it will never be without certain teams hating each other, that will never go away. These games are great for my kids, they get to enjoy who they are, suport our people, witness things such as last night and I cant sit down with them and explain what happen, it is a good experience. The game itself was pretty bad, mainly because of the field. I hope these two teams meet in the finals. As for future conflict at these games that is up to the CSL to provide proper security and outlaw what they don't think if fair to go on at these games. Maybe I am ahead of myself but the CSL will be shocked to see what kinda of support the White Eagles will have in the playoffs but mostly the finals!!!

[soccerfan01]

Ok this is exactly why the last topic got closed so im not even gonna comment. But balkan two questions...

1. Can u email me any pics you have of the fight since ur not allowed to post? (the ones that the girls took or if u have any other ones)

2. Your buddy come through with that video?

[River City]

If I lived in Southern Ontario, I'd go watch these games in a heartbeat. I do think the CSL needs to beef up its security policies and limit what fans can bring in to the games. Maybe the CSL can have TC and SWE announce to their fans to settle things down prior to the next game and make some sort of reconciliatory gesture.

For me, the main issue with this multi-thread discussion is the anti-CSL venom and the anti-multiculturalism feelings being expressed. Cut the CSL some slack. No other league in Canada is enjoying the success of the CSL and having to deal with crowd issues. If the CPSL or AMSL had this much paid attendance and half the problems, they wouldn't be adequately prepared for it. It's a problem, but more of a growing pain rather than an inherent underlying problem.

As for the anti-multicultural stance, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Canada being a country of immigrants, will always have issues with different ethnic groups. Just Saturday I got into a verbal fight with a Portuguese girl as she is from Minho and I am from Acores. Had it been a guy I was arguing with, it could have ended completely different...luckily she was attractive.

The point is, people are proud of their ethnic background. It's a good thing. It makes Canada a rich, cultural mosaic. It's not perfect, but I'll take Palestinians and Jewish people protesting on different sides of the issue peacefully on Parliament Hill, rather than have a blind patriotic adherence to the Maple Leaf, or the Union Jack, or the Stars and Stripes.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by River City

For me, the main issue with this multi-thread discussion is the anti-CSL venom and the anti-multiculturalism feelings being expressed. Cut the CSL some slack. No other league in Canada is enjoying the success of the CSL and having to deal with crowd issues. If the CPSL or AMSL had this much paid attendance and half the problems, they wouldn't be adequately prepared for it. It's a problem, but more of a growing pain rather than an inherent underlying problem.

Except for SWE games and some Croatia games, it doesn't seem like many teams attract more than 100 people. Last report I read from Robin had a game with all of 12 spectators.

I think for the CSL, it's the idea of "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Look at the threads on the CSL and their activity and compare with previous threads on the league...

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by River City

For me, the main issue with this multi-thread discussion is the anti-CSL venom and the anti-multiculturalism feelings being expressed.

River City please don't confuse my post for anti-multiculturalism. I am pretty pro-multicultural, being 'ethnic' myself. However this was multiculturalsim run amok. I have a problem with watching young teenaged Canadians guys, proudly displaying large images of WW2 Nazi stoogess and doing Hitler salutes designed to offend fellow Canadians across the field, young Canadians making monkey noises at players who are also Canadians and happen to be black, etc etc. Way to build a country guys.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by River City

It's not perfect, but I'll take Palestinians and Jewish people protesting on different sides of the issue peacefully on Parliament Hill, rather than have a blind patriotic adherence to the Maple Leaf, or the Union Jack, or the Stars and Stripes.

Regardless of one's opinion of multiculturalism or ethnic leagues, I think the key word in your post is peacefully. The Toronto Croatia and SWE games were not peaceful. If the CSL has such teams in the league and they operate peacefully I may not agree with this approach or go to the games but they have every right to operate the league as they wish. If they have violent incidents and property damage during games then the teams and league must be taken to task for this because they are bringing the sport into disrepute (not to mention the reputation of their own ethnic communities).

[BalkanBoy]

quote:Originally posted by soccerfan01

Ok this is exactly why the last topic got closed so im not even gonna comment. But balkan two questions...

1. Can u email me any pics you have of the fight since ur not allowed to post? (the ones that the girls took or if u have any other ones)

2. Your buddy come through with that video?

My buddy says the video is great. One problem is it is very dark but that can be fix in the brightness when viewing it in media player. I am on the road this week, and I will be back in London thursday or so, at which time I will grab the dvd from him. The files are pretty big and I don't want to drop the res. They will be here soon enough.

here's a couple of clips from other fans:

[River City]

Daniel,

I'm as guilty as anyone for not going out to watch AMSL games, but the attendance is horrible as the league does not promote itself. I went once to a game and the only people in the stands were related to the players.

RealGooner,

no confusion with your posts. I don't condone the actions of both sets of fans as neither do most people, but I do see a huge difference between the issues being discussed here and the whole multiculturalism debate. The crowd problems at the games are being held up as examples of the folly of multiculturalism and the failure of immigrants to adapt to Canadian life, rather than the failure of Security to install the proper safeguards.

We have a Mini-World Cup in Edmonton every year in Edmonton at the indoor centres (which automatically create a more hostile feeling) and the best attended games when I last watched were the Italian, Serbian, Croatian, Chilean and Polish games. Knowing a little bit of some languages, I can tell you I heard some stuff I didn't appreciate, but the fans behaved themselves, because they knew that at the slighest hint of trouble they would be escorted out.

Soccer, like it or not brings out a lot of passion. If you let it run amok, that passion can be dangerous (look at hooligans the world over). But if you control it properly, it can be beautiful. When was the last time the Tartan Army got into a fight at the World Cup? Just review the Security requirements, and the crowd issue is controlled.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by River City

For me, the main issue with this multi-thread discussion is the anti-CSL venom and the anti-multiculturalism feelings being expressed.

Rubbish. The opposition is to a domestic regional league that purports to be professional and charges for attending games setting up an entire division precisely to exploit pre-existing ethno-cultural animosities and rivalries for no reason other than to boost gate receipts. There is no objection to the CSL per se. I don't think I have read any objection anywhere on this board to multi-culturalism at all.

Interesting to observe that the league commissioner, who was more than ready to jump in previously and justify the CSL's ethnic based division, has been conspicuous by his complete absence from this discussion.

[River City]

Richard,

the comments that have been made on this board regarding the failure of Serbs (specifically) to adapt to a Canadian lifestyle have been numerous. That's where the anti-multiculturalism angle comes from.

You're entitled to whatever issues you have with the CSL, but admonishing them for trying to take their league to the next level, while you are content to keep yours where it is, smacks of jealousy. If you are happy with the PCSL the way it is, good for you. It is a good league. But it is inherently limited. If the CSL wants to grow and carry out their expansion plan nationally, good for them. They're trying to do something that no one else is. Don't piss all over it and then proceed to tell me it's raining (I heard that somewhere and sounds so appropriate).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Don't piss all over it and then proceed to tell me it's raining (I heard that somewhere and sounds so appropriate).

John Vernon's character in the Clint Eastwood movie The Outlaw Josey Wales FWIW.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Richard,

the comments that have been made on this board regarding the failure of Serbs (specifically) to adapt to a Canadian lifestyle have been numerous. That's where the anti-multiculturalism angle comes from.

You're entitled to whatever issues you have with the CSL, but admonishing them for trying to take their league to the next level, while you are content to keep yours where it is, smacks of jealousy. If you are happy with the PCSL the way it is, good for you. It is a good league. But it is inherently limited. If the CSL wants to grow and carry out their expansion plan nationally, good for them. They're trying to do something that no one else is. Don't piss all over it and then proceed to tell me it's raining (I heard that somewhere and sounds so appropriate).

I have no problem whatsoever with the CSL and their honourable desire to take their league truly national. I have a BIG problem with them deliberately structuring the 'international division' to take advantage of domestic ethno-cultural differences and animosities amongst Canadians. You seem to be having great difficulty separating those two concepts in your mind.

When the CSL has been around for 75 years come and talk to me about comparisons with the PCSL.

[soccerfan01]

quote:Originally posted by BalkanBoy

My buddy says the video is great. One problem is it is very dark but that can be fix in the brightness when viewing it in media player. I am on the road this week, and I will be back in London thursday or so, at which time I will grab the dvd from him. The files are pretty big and I don't want to drop the res. They will be here soon enough.

here's a couple of clips from other fans:

what bout the first question?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I have no problem whatsoever with the CSL and their honourable desire to take their league truly national. I have a BIG problem with them deliberately structuring the 'international division' to take advantage of domestic ethno-cultural differences and animosities amongst Canadians. You seem to be having great difficulty separating those two concepts in your mind.

When the CSL has been around for 75 years come and talk to me about comparisons with the PCSL.

So you're saying that the CSL by virtue of creating an international division is taking advantage of those poor, misled Serbs, Portuguese, Croats, Caribbeans who don't know any better than to pay their $10 to go watch their cultures being exploited by the 'system'. So your cause is an honourable one - to protect us ethnics from the man.

It couldn't be that by creating an international division they're actually including groups that may otherwise have been kept on the margins of Canadian soccer. I guess because they haven't been around for 75 years they have no right to develop their league according to their regional market. The nerve of some people...

This East Coast - West Coast thing could be good as I always stated I wanted to see a PCSL allstar versus a CSL allstar game. I'll even rent a field in Edmonton to stage the game. Or Calgary. Break even basis for me. Gate receipts to the winning League.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

It has been around since 1927 if the NSL and CNSL are factored in, which can be easily justified based on the fact that the three surviving CNSL clubs (Toronto Croatia, St. Catherines Roma and London City) were among the eight charter franchises.

[joga11]

hey balkan boy. can u send me that video too?

[Dok je srca bitce Croatie]

You know i really wanted to stay outa this and just remain a 'spectator' on the forum but my principals would not permit me to do so after balkanboys dis-information and propaganda rant to twist the minds of others who may not know better.

Why do serbs always feel the need to play the victim card? This is the last place i though id find this sort of behaviour. Funny how the serbs the only nation in the world which celebrates its defeats, kosovo anyone? The whole world finally fell off its deaf ears in the 1990s and discovered what the serbian nation is all about, war after war genocide after genocide (4 waged wars in the 90s, all 4 lost), soomething the Croatians and other ethnic groups have been dealing with for almost a century. The so called allied nature of the Cetniks is a sham as they were as fascist as you can get, vying to unite all serbs into one state (which they did in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia aka Greater Serbia in 1918-39, and later in 45-90 under the proxy yugoslav name) while violently wiping out any oposition to Serbian hegemony to the groups who stood in their way of their expansionist dreams. Any Croatian political, cultural, social and economic institutions were disbanded and violently extinguished all in the name of a Serbian dictatorship under Karadjordjevic's crown. Croatian Patriots were routinely beaten, jailed and killed simply for thier right of self determination , even Einstein commented on their plight and the nature of the Serb regime after notable intellectuals such as Milan Sufflay were murdered . The Ustasa which means insurgent or upriser was a reaction to this despotic serbian rule long before any nazi goose stepped along.

Do not be fooled the geo political nature on exyu during ww2 was an utter mess. Serbs like to play the card of the ' allies' and distort reality but Cetniks collaborated with german and italians invaders as much as anyone if not more. Armed by italians fascists cetnik hordes would raid Croatian villages leaving a trail of blood everywhere they went. Countless towns throughout Croatian and Bosnia Hercegovina attest to this as the drina ran red with blood at Foca. Dont believe me how about Nikola Kalabic letter to the Nazis about receiving arms http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/kalabic.jpg or pavle djurisic with nazi and fascist occupiers and the rest of these documents and pictures to show you just how allied these serbs were. http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5585/pic2mo1.jpg You have a problem with the letter -U- well we have a problem with cetnik skull n crossbones which bloodied our land in ww2 and in this war, vukovar anyone who can ever forget the serb troops under their skull crossbones standard singing send us salad slobo there will be meet we will be slaughting Croats http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/_1944__majevica__stevan_damjanovic.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/djurisic.jpg http://www.geocities.com/telescope_h/nemchet.jpg http://www.geocities.com/telescope_h/stanisic.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/cetniksaNijemcima1.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/d09d1c24.jpg or most absurd of all a letter from your very own draza mihailovic to cardinal stepinac pleaing for an alliance with Croatians. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/PismoDMnadbiskupuStepincu.jpg Serbs will always try to atach the stigma of ndh but just about every occupied state in europe had a regime and citizens friendly to the axis, yet it is the Croats which are constantly dealt a brunt of the blame for what the nazis inflicted upon the whole world, Pavelic and the Ustase did not have the liberty of picking their allies and no one would hear their plight and calls as when someone is knocking down your jail (yugoslavia) you do not ask who is doing it as the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Need i remind u of Nazi pupet serb Serbia and General Nedic and his triumphant proclamation of Belgrade as the first JudeinFrei (no jews) city in europe, emphasized by this serb postage stamp? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/7/77/PostanskeMarkiceokupiranaSrbija.jpg

And your #s of deaths are preposterous. Scholars from both sides who have extensively studied pre and post war demographics agree that around 1. Mill ppl died on the territory of exyu during the war from all sides (zerjavic and kocovic), and the hardest hit areas % drop and highest extent of emigrats demographically were Croat dinaric regions (not including the post war massacres on Croats whose scale are unparamount in modern times, in which british archives on the matter intended to be opened 35 years ago remain sealed). Secondary sources carelessly parroted from other secondary sources to another, Myths, fables, and deliberate propaganda to paint the entire Croatian nation and any adherence of Croatian nationalism and statehood as fascist and genocidal is nothing but a contination of the yugo communist propaganda policy which was in effect for 50+ years to justify its own artifial existence, denying the 1300 year old National tradition of the Croats and to hide the blood from their own hands (Bleiburg, Way of the Cross, Goli Otok and countless other jails, and UDBA kill missions). I apologize to the rest of the forumites for this rant but i cannot let such **** go on unquestioned.

And then some wonder why Toronto Croatia and hundreds of other Croatian clubs worldwide came into existence in the first place as they were not only to fulfill a sporting/social role and unify Croats but be a political voice and a beaken in the free world that Croatia exists and that the fire will not die, while at home in the yugo dictatorship uttering 'Long Live Croatia' was the higest state crime which landed you hard time or worse.

The simple fact is now that the homeland is free much of the fire and nationalist ferver which drove this club to the top of soccer on this continent has died down, Croats have moved on and are quite content with their homeland free from greater serbian tyranny and here in Canada living peacefully in the multicultural mosaic and enriching soccer across the country. The days of when we had something to fight for in for instance 70s and early 90s are long done AS THE HOMELAND IS FREE NOW and we are for the most part 1st and 2nd generation whos parents came in the 60s 70s and just really love soccer and our Toronto Croatia. While it is on occassion the serbian complexes which drive us to more agressive behaviour. I have been to all the games and have seen the atmoshphere progressiely get worse and the crowds get bigger and it all started with the lighing of Croatian flags on fire in the first game and the stoning of our stand/spectators after the game which naturally send tensions ablaze and hightened interest with every game, with people who would regularily not be at a game showup. This in an age when the most important problem of old (artificial state called yugo-slave-ia is dead) is settled and we have separate states which will hopefully in the future co exist in peace.

Toronto Croatia has been a staple of quality soccer in this country for Decades and is highly respected. Many national titles and the North American leage title of 76' beating the likes of pele and the cosmos attests to this. We did not come outa nowhere much like the amateur white eagles have with their new fancy coach sekularac, newfound capital, investment on foreign players and fan support which by the looks of it is largely made of fresh deports from the war in the 90s with frustrated complexes and an axe to grind, namely against Croats. The way i see it the white seagulls and the whole ultra serb tifo group is just a novelty which will die off as any new fad does.

And for those of you bashing 'ethnics', had there of been no 'ethnics'(namely the post ww2 generation migration) thered be no soccer in this country and a hell of a lot more of hockey and lacrosse. For all you 'ethnic' haters, It really must suck during the world cup having no links and ur heart beating for no one, so u opt like the masses and adopt brazilian yellow. I know i wont get many fans with my next reply but How can you build ONE national identity when the whole basis of our identity was a split anglo-franco one and is now a multicultural one, our country is not even 2 centures old (bloodlines and ties to the land and ur kin which go over generations, inveitably mean more than a a tie to someone though a citizenship paper which can be adopted by anyone,anywhere) has already existing regional and cultural faultlines and whose modern identity is pregressively being built around not being American? Blood is not water.

TORONTO CROATIA, PROUD SINCE 1956 and not going anywhere

1956

1975 metros croatia and pele

1976 government of ontario award to tor cro

[DoyleG]

Rathe hard playing the Anglo-Franco thing on all of Canada. Neither of those two dominate the praries.