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Canada's Ideal Line up and Formation


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I don't know. I would rate them about equal.

Podolski, Mertesacker, Lahm, and Schweinsteiger are not bad players.

And realistically, Ronaldinho did not spend much time in the French League (two years)so I don't think it can claim to have produced him.

As for Canadians going to France, it all boils down to the Euro Passport. If a Canadian has one, then maybe it is possible. If not, it appears easier to get into Scandinavia.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

I think france is outpacing Germany inthe last couple years by a long shot. Germany hasn't really been producing star players lately, like Ballack's kinda old when he left, as well the players they pulled in post development are leaving (Ze roberto).

Additionally I think that Lyon is way better then Bayern, and for germany's hamburg and werder bremen, france has lille, marseille, PSG, Bordeaux, Monaco etc.

France has been pulling in major players (Denilson, Vieri etc.) and has been producing major talent for export (Ribery, ronaldhino, Jay Jay O, Evra, Essien etc etc)

In all ways in the last couple years france is superior to germany and is probably gaining on the EPL for third best league and I think it shows a huge lack of depth on are part that we have no one in France or Italy. Really we should be finding france much easier to get into then Spain considering Quebec, Bernier and Occean could probably easily fit into a mid level french club and guareenteed starters in the second division.

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well two years from the age 21 - 23 is pretty important I think, and it may just be me but I can't stand podolski, he's overrated and a bit of a dick, and who the hell's mertesacker? shweinsteger is pretty wicked though eh.

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I agree that the development time between 21-23 is important but Gremio should get most of the credit for developing Ronaldinho. At the same time if this age is so important, Podolski is just entering that age so maybe he will be much better in a couple of years.

Mertesacker is also only 21 and has already played a World Cup in the central defence of one of the semi-finalists. Not bad if you ask me.

Also two young players that recently moved to the Bundesliga are Diego (Brazilian in Bremen from Porto) and Van der Vaart (Hamburg from Ajax).

Still, France is a good league too. Lyon is one of the better teams in Europe these past few years. I just think the two leagues are quite close with Germany maybe having a little more depth.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

well two years from the age 21 - 23 is pretty important I think, and it may just be me but I can't stand podolski, he's overrated and a bit of a dick, and who the hell's mertesacker? shweinsteger is pretty wicked though eh.

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Stally in midfield again? Could work!

Wide left?

------------Lars-----

------Nsaliwa---Edgar--

Ledgerwood-----------Simpson

-----------Attiba-------

---------DeGuz-------

Peeters-------Hume-----Stalteri--

----------Mckenna------

Or in the middle?

--------------Lars------

-------Nsaliwa----McKenna----

Ledgerwood---Attiba------Klukowski

-------------Stalteri--------

Peeters-----Johnson--------Dejong

---------------Friend------

Has the energy but can he be counted on to put a pass in the right place?

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quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I agree that the development time between 21-23 is important but Gremio should get most of the credit for developing Ronaldinho. At the same time if this age is so important, Podolski is just entering that age so maybe he will be much better in a couple of years.

Mertesacker is also only 21 and has already played a World Cup in the central defence of one of the semi-finalists. Not bad if you ask me.

Also two young players that recently moved to the Bundesliga are Diego (Brazilian in Bremen from Porto) and Van der Vaart (Hamburg from Ajax).

Still, France is a good league too. Lyon is one of the better teams in Europe these past few years. I just think the two leagues are quite close with Germany maybe having a little more depth.

true, especially since ronaldhino had a pro contact at the age of 13, and the difference between 4th and 5th is so close that it's not even worth argueing but I would say france has been making larger strides lately

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hello to everyone...

I like to see people making references to international starts (young ones) who had a good World Cup, players like Podolski, Ronaldinho, etc.

But @ the same time we must also keep track of the topic for this forum which is dicussing a potential line-up for Canada, with the players that we have, despite the fact that we do not have that many players in the top leagues.

If we want to choose players that play for top-leagues in their current countries, we should consider:

All Canadians who play in Norway

Hutchinson in Sweden

De Guzman in Spain

Johnson and Friend in Holland

De Rosario and Seriux in US

We could also think of people like Radz and Stalteri, but must also consider the youth projects coming up...

Formation-wise I still think is between a 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-1-2

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quote:Originally posted by Canadiense

If we want to choose players that play for top-leagues in their current countries, we should consider:

All Canadians who play in Norway

Hutchinson in Sweden

De Guzman in Spain

Johnson and Friend in Holland

De Rosario and Seriux in US

We could also think of people like Radz and Stalteri, but must also consider the youth projects coming up...

Hutchinson is at FC Copnhagen (Denmark) now ;)

And if you're listing Canadians in top leagues, you must also list McKenna and Imhof in the Bundesliga.

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Ok on topic now.

First of all, as most coaches would say, you set the formation to fit the players you have.

Second, I think it is appropriate to consider two teams. One is made of our players that would form the best team today and another is the likely starting eleven in 2010.

Today's team. I think it is important for our National team to consider current form rather than potential. As many national team coaches would demand, I would also expect that our starters would be playing fairly regularly at their club.

Finally, the level of club play is very important because the national team coach has little time to prepare the team and if the player is playing in a top league, he has learned to compete at that level. On top of that, his club coach has a positive opinion (at least more positive than the other options at the club) of the player.

My first list does not consider the availability of individual players.

G - Hirschfeld

RB - Paul Stalteri

D - Kevin McKenna

D - Tam Nsaliwa

LB - Mike Klukowski

MF - Atiba Hutchinson

MF - Julian de Guzman

MF - Adrian Serioux or Daniel Imhof

MF - Dwayne De Rosario

F - Tomaz Radzinski

CF - Rob Friend

The current group lends itself to a 4-4-2 formation. However, I am an optimist so I will add that if Jonathan DeGuzman declares himself for Canada, he moves straight into the starting 11 because he is good enough to be there. I am not convinced of Serioux nor Imhof but they are playing. While Imhof is now with a Bundesliga team, I am concerned that he may suffer the same fate as Brennan a few years ago. I suspect McKenna will have more staying power but he faces the same challenge.

2010 Team.

This is more complicated. But I will start by assuming that some of the younger guys will have developed to the point where they deserve a starting spot. Also a few 30+ aged players will continue to play at a high level. My process is to split the players under consideration into three categories: one, players at or near their peak in 2010; two, young players that have risen high enough to be considered, and; three, the 30+ aged players still considered (Goalkeepers excepted who are likely to be at their peak after 30).

Players at or near their peak (2010)

Lars Hirshfeld - G

Atiba Hutchinson - MF

Julian de Guzman - MF

Ian Hume - F

Rob Friend - F

Kevin McKenna - D

Tam Nsaliwa - D

Josh Simpson - MF/FB

Mike Klukowski - FB

Olivier Occean - F

Young Players rising to prominence (by 2010)

Jaime Peters - MF/F

David Edgar - D

Marcel de Jonge - MF/F

Nicolas Ledgerwood - FB

30+ aged players (in 2010)

Daniel Imhof

Paul Stalteri

Adrian Serioux

Dwayne De Rosario

Based on this pool of players my 2010 starting eleven is projected as:

G - Hirschfeld

FB - Stalteri

D - Edgar

D - Nsaliwa

FB - Klukowski

MF - Hutchinson

MF - Julian de Guzman

MF - Josh Simpson

F - Jaime Peters/Ian Hume

F - Rob Friend/ Olivier Occean

F - Marcel de Jonge

Again if Jonathan de Guzman declares himself for Canada, he starts, probably pushing Simpson to de Jonge's position.

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Imhoff has been injured this summer so it could be difficult to get playing time when he comes back if the guy who took his place does well.

I haven't seen Nsaliwa played for 4 yrs now, so I wouldn't give him a starting position. But I would like to see him getting an invitation for a camp or a friendly soon.

In the young player rising to prominence by 2010 I would add:

Hainault

Johnson

Wagenaar

Possible:

Begovic

Gyaki

Nunez

Lombardo

The problem with all those young players is that we'll need them for 2008-2009, not 2010 unless we qualify. So I'm not sure if we'll see any of them during the qualification, Edgar, Hainault and Johnson would've at the moment the best chance to be there.

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Ok, I forgot about Hainhault and agree that he could be there for 2010 too. But he may but I doubt that he will replace the central defenders listed (in my opinion) by 2010. Edgar is a long-shot because of his age but if he starts to get regular time (not necessarily starting) at Newcastle (which could happen this year or next), I don't think any NT coach could ignore him.

As for Begovic and Wagenaar, I left them off simply because I feel that Goalkeepers peak later. I suspect that they will be much better in four years than they are now. However, I would also expect Hirschfeld to have stepped up a notch or two by then as well.

As for Johnson, Nunez, Gyaki, and Lombardo, I feel they are all a little further off from those that I mentioned in the young category (maybe 2014).

As for Nsaliwa, I guess it is a matter of opinion. Nsaliwa played regularly now for three years in the Bundesliga-2 level. That is a relatively high level and the same level as McKenna played last year. I also feel McKenna needs cover for his lack of speed and Nsaliwa needs cover for his lack of height. The two fit nicely and I would like to try the two together at the back. Also, I don't think you can completely discount the fact that Rudi Bommer actually puts his job on the line in defending Nsaliwa against Saarbrucken management and then Ewald Lienen, more or less, takes him to Greece. That's two highly respected German coaches that have endorsed him. I don't know if we have another central defender with that kind of endorsement.

As for the issue of having the same players playing in 2008 as in 2010, my view is that today's team should evolve to the one projected in 2010. I believe the National team should start the best team (usually a combination of the best and in-form players at the time). That is likely to be the mid-point between the two teams listed above.

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Imhoff has been injured this summer so it could be difficult to get playing time when he comes back if the guy who took his place does well.

I haven't seen Nsaliwa played for 4 yrs now, so I wouldn't give him a starting position. But I would like to see him getting an invitation for a camp or a friendly soon.

In the young player rising to prominence by 2010 I would add:

Hainault

Johnson

Wagenaar

Possible:

Begovic

Gyaki

Nunez

Lombardo

The problem with all those young players is that we'll need them for 2008-2009, not 2010 unless we qualify. So I'm not sure if we'll see any of them during the qualification, Edgar, Hainault and Johnson would've at the moment the best chance to be there.

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I think that Canuck Oranje said what I was trying to say with much better clarity. The current starting line up should rely more on vetrans at the highest level. The younger player that we have hopes for should be tried out as subs and occasional starters so that the team evolves to our 2010 version. My main concern would be that Canuck Oranje's player pool has only four fullbacks, if you add Hainault then you have five, still not a lot. However this has been a problem for a while and is the reason we have Hutchinson playing out of position. I think that we are still going to have some of the current group of defenders that most people have left out still being in the picture when 2010 qualifying starts ( ie Brennan, Reda, Jazic, Braz, not all of them but some).

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Well, I'm in the opinion of looking at the best possible players for 2008 since it's the beginning of the qualification. So If guys like Radz, Stalteri, Imhoff and co are in top form I have no problem using them even if we know that some of them won't be at the WC in 2010 because of their age.

As for the kids I've named I just wanted to point out that they were in good club situation and some might be pushing for a starting role sooner than we might think but I'm not sure if any of them will crack our starting lineup by 2008 (I would think 1 or 2 will)

My problem with Nsaliwa is that I haven't seen him play for a while and he's been in the Bundesliga 2 for a while too and it doesn't seem like he's moving up level with that move in Greece. I'm pretty sure he's MNT material but from what I've seen a backline of Stalteri---Mckenna----Kluka---Simpson would be pretty good.

BTW, I think the Nsaliwa coach was defending some coaching principles more than defending Nsaliwa when he refused to take him out of that game. When the team owners want to do your job you have to make them understand that your are the man in charge and you make the decisions. I don't see it as a proof of Nsaliwa's quality, I just think it's a coach who wants his decisions respected and doesn't feel like the management has the right to step into his job.

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quote:Originally posted by ken

I think that Canuck Oranje said what I was trying to say with much better clarity. The current starting line up should rely more on vetrans at the highest level. The younger player that we have hopes for should be tried out as subs and occasional starters so that the team evolves to our 2010 version. My main concern would be that Canuck Oranje's player pool has only four fullbacks, if you add Hainault then you have five, still not a lot. However this has been a problem for a while and is the reason we have Hutchinson playing out of position. I think that we are still going to have some of the current group of defenders that most people have left out still being in the picture when 2010 qualifying starts ( ie Brennan, Reda, Jazic, Braz, not all of them but some).

Players like Serioux, Brennan, Hutchinson and Imhoff can also play at the back, so we might be safe but I would like to see one central defender emerge in the near future.

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Well, I am not going the belabour the point on Nsaliwa. It is an opinion and I will only say he has been endorsed by some respected club coaches (the degree to which is for you to decide). As for the move to Greece, I think it would likely be viewed as a step up, albeit maybe not a large one. For similar reasons, I place Friend in my starting eleven.

More importantly, I think it is important for our starting players to be getting regular playing time at the highest level possible. Simpson was left out of the starting lineup in my current team. If he performs well and plays regularly with Kaiserslautern, then he moves up. Until then, I think there are others who belong ahead of him.

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Well, I'm in the opinion of looking at the best possible players for 2008 since it's the beginning of the qualification. So If guys like Radz, Stalteri, Imhoff and co are in top form I have no problem using them even if we know that some of them won't be at the WC in 2010 because of their age.

As for the kids I've named I just wanted to point out that they were in good club situation and some might be pushing for a starting role sooner than we might think but I'm not sure if any of them will crack our starting lineup by 2008 (I would think 1 or 2 will)

My problem with Nsaliwa is that I haven't seen him play for a while and he's been in the Bundesliga 2 for a while too and it doesn't seem like he's moving up level with that move in Greece. I'm pretty sure he's MNT material but from what I've seen a backline of Stalteri---Mckenna----Kluka---Simpson would be pretty good.

BTW, I think the Nsaliwa coach was defending some coaching principles more than defending Nsaliwa when he refused to take him out of that game. When the team owners want to do your job you have to make them understand that your are the man in charge and you make the decisions. I don't see it as a proof of Nsaliwa's quality, I just think it's a coach who wants his decisions respected and doesn't feel like the management has the right to step into his job.

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Well...

It's really nice to see that in the recent replies we are taking a lot more into consideration the younger players and for that matter the qualfication process that is in 2008-2009.

We also have to consider the regional tournaments like the Gold Cup.

Do not forget that Gold Cup 2007 is the month before the U20 World Cup.

We should also consider sending some of the U20 guys there to get more experience for their upcoming tournament.

I agree with a lot of what Canuck Oranje is saying, especially waiting for certain players to hit a constant good form like Josh Simpson.

The one thing that I've noticed about his squads and teams is that he omits DeRosario for 2010... Even though he will be 32, I still think that he might still have the fitness and ability to play @ that level, although I must also agree that this depends on his form @ that time as well.

As for other players it does depend on their age and form, I am still not sure about Stalteri being able to hold down the 1st choice @ right back for 2010.

I would like to see:

4-3-3

STARTING 11

=================

GK) Hirschfeld

RB) Stalteri

CB) Edgar

CB) McKenna

LB) Klukowski

RCM) DeGuzman

CM) Hutchinson

LCM) Simpson

CF) Peters

CF) DeRosario

ST) Friend

or in the case that we want more men in the midfield:

4-4-2 dimond in the middle

STARTING 11

================

GK) Hirschfeld

RB) Stalteri

CB) Edgar

CB) McKenna

LB) Klukowski

DM) Hutchinson

RM) Peters

LM) DeGuzman

AM) DeRosario

ST) Johnson

ST) Friend

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Well, to be honest, 4-4-2 or 4-3-3, it doesn't really matter when, as BrennanFan pointed out, DeRo is essentially an attacking mid. It essentially all amounts to the same: 6 or one, a half-dozen of the other etc.

What I think is useful about the 4-3-3, however, is the mindset it puts our lads in: It says, let's attack, let's create, let's push forward and support each other in the final third of the opposition's end. 4-4-2, when stated, sort of suggests "serious football," and we need to be bold instead of serious. Canadians do not need to be serious--we are by nature serious, it seems. What we need is permission to be dynamic and ballsy and creative: 4-3-3 seems to do this, grant permission of a sort.

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unfortunately for canadian coaches you have to go with who is available to determine tactics - at all levels.

as far as canada goes though, i'd recommend a chelski-esque 4-3-3. this would offer optimum support for the defenders and midfielders while offering width in attack which plays into the strength canada has at winning balls in the air off crosses.

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