red bull huge drop in attendance

[argh1]

Here's MLS and USL attendance as of June 3/4th.

http://www.kenn.com/soccer/index.html

You'll have to scroll down some, but they are there on the right hand side. EDIT: Keep going down untill you see the article titled "A view of Bridgeview" look to the right and there's MLS ATTENDANCE WATCH. Right underneath links on the rightside of the page.

NY is averaging close to 23,000 a game. Yes there are some weak spots but MLS is averaging over 16,000.

Could someone explain how this is bad. I know NY is a humungus market. But there's also two MLB teams averaging over 40,000 a game.Shoot from what I understand from NHL boards I visit. There's no love between local media and Devils/Rangers/Islanders it must be that much less for MLS. But c'mon 23,000 after 5 home games....how bad is that really....awesome me thinks!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Here's MLS and USL attendance as of June 3/4th.

http://www.kenn.com/soccer/index.html

You'll have to scroll down some, but they are there on the right hand side. EDIT: Keep going down untill you see the article titled "A view of Bridgeview" look to the right and there's MLS ATTENDANCE WATCH. Right underneath links on the rightside of the page.

NY is averaging close to 23,000 a game. Yes there are some weak spots but MLS is averaging over 16,000.

Could someone explain how this is bad. I know NY is a humungus market. But there's also two MLB teams averaging over 40,000 a game.Shoot from what I understand from NHL boards I visit. There's no love between local media and Devils/Rangers/Islanders it must be that much less for MLS. But c'mon 23,000 after 5 home games....how bad is that really....awesome me thinks!

As for New York, it's biggest crowd was a double header with two very popular national teams with a huge fan base in NYC (Columbia/Equador) with broght in 58,000. The second largets crowd had a concert by shakira (big latin draw) had 23,000. So take those double headers out and add the home game against Bayern Munich (5400) Red Bull is averaging 11 K per ish. In a market of 19 million.

So it's kind of crap actually. The 06 numbers aren't than what the WUSA'a Washington Freedom drew in 2002. (14K per game)

And where is the WUSA today?

As the MLS- take out all the double header events and I wonder what the bottom line is?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Here's MLS and USL attendance as of June 3/4th.

http://www.kenn.com/soccer/index.html

You'll have to scroll down some, but they are there on the right hand side. EDIT: Keep going down untill you see the article titled "A view of Bridgeview" look to the right and there's MLS ATTENDANCE WATCH. Right underneath links on the rightside of the page.

NY is averaging close to 23,000 a game. Yes there are some weak spots but MLS is averaging over 16,000.

Could someone explain how this is bad. I know NY is a humungus market. But there's also two MLB teams averaging over 40,000 a game.Shoot from what I understand from NHL boards I visit. There's no love between local media and Devils/Rangers/Islanders it must be that much less for MLS. But c'mon 23,000 after 5 home games....how bad is that really....awesome me thinks!

The issue with attendance in any MLS market Argh1 is that once you take away the games with a cross promotion - i.e. double headers primarily, there is a significant drop in average attendance. So with Red bull, that 23 K is made up of two games that drew considerable more than normal. Is this good or bad? I am not going to offer an opinion on that. I don't know what share of the gate MLS gets when in these double headers. All I do know is that once you factor out double headers - San Jose was 4 or 5th in attendance and they lost their team due to poor attendance. This would suggest that MLS does make a decent amount of coin on the double headers. But, the reality is that MLS actually draws 10-12 K on average when it is just MLS teams out playing a soccer game. And it is also a reality that non-cross promotional attendance is on a downward trend. This is not to say that the cross promotion isn't a good business strategy, and it is perhaps the route to making professional soccer viable in North America. Nothing wrong with that if it is the case. Indeed, kudos for the innovation.

In terms of what this means for Canada, it would suggest that viable MLS markets in Canada would be cities with the capacity to move to another stadium and draw 50K+ with a doubleheader. This would add Edmonton to the list due to Commonwealth, take Montreal w/o the Big Owe off the list, and make Vancouver's entry dependent upon the continued operation of BC Place (or replacement with equivalent). Look for Toronto to host at least 1 doubleheader in their inaugral season.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

The Freedom averaged 14K their first season in 2001, and then the last two seasons they got around 9000, which was still best in the league. They also had doubleheaders with the DC United, which resulted in a higher attendance average for the Freedom. One doubleheader in 2002, drew 36,000. Let us not forget that they also had the Mia Hamm factor.

The WUSA failed for a number of reasons. In their first season they hoped to average around 7500 fans, so low attendance wasn't the only factor the league failed.

That's right. One of the biggies was when the corprations pulled out and there no sugar daddies willing to bankroll clubs with former US National team players warming the bench and making 60K a year.

And if the sugar daddies walk away from the MLS, it nothing more than a modern day version of the strongest 12 NASL clubs. Which may be it's only saving grace.

[Foxscarf]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

That's right. One of the biggies was when the corprations pulled out and there no sugar daddies willing to bankroll clubs with former US National team players warming the bench and making 60K a year.

And if the sugar daddies walk away from the MLS, it nothing more than a modern day version of the strongest 12 NASL clubs. Which may be it's only saving grace.

Agree!

[argh1]

Okay, we've gotten away from MetroStars......Redbull.

So in general what we're saying is; if attendance is low there's no interst and bad promotions. But if attendance is good there's still no interest but crappy promotions that people go see........and without said crappy promotions attendance would suck. So we could bitch at the marketing guys for having no promotions and crappy attendance. But if folk so up it's because of crappy promotions not because of the game. If no-one shows up it's lack of gimmicks. But if they show up it's because of gimmicks........

And THE WHEELS OF THE BUS GO ROUND AND ROUND, ROUND AND ROUND, ROUND AND.......

[RS]

There have been exactly two non stand-alone matches played so far in MLS. Both by Red Bull New York.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

But no one is countering him with the "good" numbers....where are those?

It is fine to say that G-Man is just pointing to the lows...but if you countered with some of the highs then his argument would not hold water

Don't really want to get too deep into it, but one good example of G-Man only pointing out the lows is how he mentioned the Chivas match (8k), but failed to mention the DC United match (22k) played on the exact same day.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

But, the reality is that MLS actually draws 10-12 K on average when it is just MLS teams out playing a soccer game.

Like I said in my post above, there have been exactly two gimmick matches thus far in MLS, both hosted by New York, so what you described is not the "reality" at all. The attendance numbers you are seeing (outside of RBNY) are for people who are paying to see their MLS side. It's roughly 16k per game thus far.

There are some teams doing poorly (KC, Colorado, NY), while most are doing relatively well (DC, LA, Houston, Dallas, Columbus, Real Salt Lake).

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

MLS attendances will increase once the World Cup begins.

Well, the WC has begun and here were today's attendance figure

Columbus at home to KC.....Attendance: 11,754...weather Partly Cloudy -and- 60 degrees

New York at home to Houston...Attendance: 9,617....Weather: Partly Cloudy -and- 64 degrees

Average 10,685.5

Sorry, to be fair, I should have included games played on the ninth as the WC had begun then too.

Colorado hosted Real SL on the ninth...Attendance: 12,920...Weather: Cloudy -and- 84 degrees

So the average attendance of games played since the start of the WC is, actually, 11,430.

There are, I believe, 3 games today with FC Dallas, the Fire and the Galaxy all at home.

[Start fan in exile]

I thought FIFA required that all national leagues cease play during the World Cup? At least the top level. Are there not a number of US players missing from MLS rosters as they are in Germany?

The Norwegian league had to cease play even though there is only 1 player from the top two levels of Norwegian soccer playing at the WC (Sweden's Rami Shaaban).

Is this another case of the US ignoring rules that apply to the rest of the world or did FIFA simply not care what MLS does?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

There are, I believe, 3 games today with FC Dallas, the Fire and the Galaxy all at home.

The Fire got 12,941 to their 'public safety' match at Toyota Park in Bridgeview, which was supposed to be capped at 12,000. Their official home opener takes place on June 25th.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Start fan in exile

I thought FIFA required that all national leagues cease play during the World Cup? At least the top level. Are there not a number of US players missing from MLS rosters as they are in Germany?

The Norwegian league had to cease play even though there is only 1 player from the top two levels of Norwegian soccer playing at the WC (Sweden's Rami Shaaban).

Is this another case of the US ignoring rules that apply to the rest of the world or did FIFA simply not care what MLS does?

MLS can't afford to stop play for a month just for the World Cup.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

MLS can't afford to stop play for a month just for the World Cup.

Would anyone miss it? I doubt it.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Well, the WC has begun and here were today's attendance figure

Columbus at home to KC.....Attendance: 11,754...weather Partly Cloudy -and- 60 degrees

New York at home to Houston...Attendance: 9,617....Weather: Partly Cloudy -and- 64 degrees

Average 10,685.5

Sorry, to be fair, I should have included games played on the ninth as the WC had begun then too.

Colorado hosted Real SL on the ninth...Attendance: 12,920...Weather: Cloudy -and- 84 degrees

So the average attendance of games played since the start of the WC is, actually, 11,430.

There are, I believe, 3 games today with FC Dallas, the Fire and the Galaxy all at home.

To make sure I am not accused of picking and choosing....here are the final attendance stats for MLS' first weekend of play with the WC going.....

FC Dallas at home to Chivas...Attendance: 10,737...Weather: Sunny -and- 96 degrees

Fire at home to Revolution...Attendance: 12,941...Weather: Cloudy -and- 60 degrees

Galaxy at home to DC United...Attendance: 17,538...Weather: Partly Cloudy -and- 63 degrees

So in a weekend with 6 matches, the WC underway, no weather problems and home games in the 3 largest cities (LA, NY and Chicago) the average attendance was 12,585....I will leave it for you guys to determine if that is good, bad or indifferent.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

To make sure I am not accused of picking and choosing....here are the final attendance stats for MLS' first weekend of play with the WC going.....

FC Dallas at home to Chivas...Attendance: 10,737...Weather: Sunny -and- 96 degrees

Fire at home to Revolution...Attendance: 12,941...Weather: Cloudy -and- 60 degrees

Galaxy at home to DC United...Attendance: 17,538...Weather: Partly Cloudy -and- 63 degrees

So in a weekend with 6 matches, the WC underway, no weather problems and home games in the 3 largest cities (LA, NY and Chicago) the average attendance was 12,585....I will leave it for you guys to determine if that is good, bad or indifferent.

As I stated in my last post, the Chicago match was capped at 12,000 (even though they let in close to 1,000 more) because their stadium isn't finished yet.

They used the match as a 'dry run' to see how the facilities will hold up. Expect the official June 25th grand home opener to sell out (21,000).

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

As I stated in my last post, the Chicago match was capped at 12,000 (even though they let in close to 1,000 more) because their stadium isn't finished yet.

They used the match as a 'dry run' to see how the facilities will hold up. Expect the official June 25th grand home opener to sell out (21,000).

OK I get it but, lets face it, those additional 8,059 people (assuming that is the capacity of the new stadium and it would have been reached) would bring the average of the 6 games to 13,928....if you would rather discuss that number then, ok, is that good/bad/indifferent.

If I am running MLS I am disappointed by those numbers on a good weather weekend when the sport is actually front page news all across America (but without an actual USA game to compete with) and 4 of the 6 matches are being played in the SSS that are supposed to save the sport in North America!

Just my opinion.

[G-Man]

Give the MLS a break. It was the 20th "ArenaBowl" week-end in Las Vagas. Crowds should pick up now that Arena Football in over for the summer.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Give the MLS a break. It was the 20th "ArenaBowl" week-end in Las Vagas. Crowds should pick up now that Arena Football in over for the summer.

G-Man knows how to pick a winner.

Just look at how great his Caribbean Stars are doing in the CSL.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

OK I get it but, lets face it, those additional 8,059 people (assuming that is the capacity of the new stadium and it would have been reached) would bring the average of the 6 games to 13,928....if you would rather discuss that number then, ok, is that good/bad/indifferent.

If I am running MLS I am disappointed by those numbers on a good weather weekend when the sport is actually front page news all across America (but without an actual USA game to compete with) and 4 of the 6 matches are being played in the SSS that are supposed to save the sport in North America!

Just my opinion.

Let me put it to you another way.

Just a few years ago, MLS was getting similar attendance numbers in giant NFL stadia (with exorbitant rent and very little access to ancillary revenue).

Now, with SSS's coming online, they get the same numbers and break even or even turn a profit. Now they can focus exclusively on bringing the numbers in, rather than paying the bills. That's how the SSS's will save the sport.

As for the attendance dip this month, I have to disagree with others here who said that the World Cup would increase attendance. If anything, the WC is a detriment to MLS attendance. I think if the WC will spike attendance, it'll be after the tournament finishes.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

G-Man knows how to pick a winner.

Just look at how great his Caribbean Stars are doing in the CSL.

At least they outdraw the Red Fools of New York.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Let me put it to you another way.

Just a few years ago, MLS was getting similar attendance numbers in giant NFL stadia (with exorbitant rent and very little access to ancillary revenue).

Now, with SSS's coming online, they get the same numbers and break even or even turn a profit. Now they can focus exclusively on bringing the numbers in, rather than paying the bills. That's how the SSS's will save the sport.

Not sure how the SSSs are funded but if you have to pay debt on a construction/development loan then that can eat up more $$$ than rent. In the alternative, if the stadium is paid for from owner's cash then there had better be a return on equity which, again, will seem just like rent....unless they were all funded like the Toronto one with very little cash from the owner/operator of the franchise....then it is like getting a free stadium.

quote:As for the attendance dip this month, I have to disagree with others here who said that the World Cup would increase attendance. If anything, the WC is a detriment to MLS attendance. I think if the WC will spike attendance, it'll be after the tournament finishes.

As a skeptic I have to ask, is there ever a "right" time for attendance for North American soccer? I hope, one day, to be chearing for Toronto FC with packed houses of fans around me.....I just don't think I will live that long!

[RS]

If the sport is going to grow, it's going to take baby steps. I don't think we're going to see NFL sized crowds for (domestic) pro soccer in North America in any of our lifetimes, but it is realistic to expect incremental increases.

As for SSS's and return on investment, the LA Galaxy will reportedly turn a profit in 2006, 2-and-a-half years after the Home Depot Center was built, Chivas USA is already profitable (thanks to large corporate support from the LA Hispanic community) and the Columbus Crew were break-even last year, 6 years after Crew Stadium opened, so a team's financial outlook is a lot better with an SSS than without.

An oddity is the New England Revolution, whom Don Garber said was close to break even last season despite playing out of the cavernous Gilette Stadium. The fact that Robert Kraft owns the soccer team and the stadium (as well as the stadium's main tenant, the New England Patriots) probably has something to do with that.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

If the sport is going to grow, it's going to take baby steps. I don't think we're going to see NFL sized crowds for (domestic) pro soccer in North America in any of our lifetimes, but it is realistic to expect incremental increases.

Not looking for NFL size crowds....but are you not the least bit disappointed that, at this stage of league's life, this weekend they could not reach a 13k average with games in NY, LA and Chicago?

quote:

As for SSS's and return on investment, the LA Galaxy will reportedly turn a profit in 2006, 2-and-a-half years after the Home Depot Center was built, Chivas USA is already profitable (thanks to large corporate support from the LA Hispanic community) and the Columbus Crew were break-even last year, 6 years after Crew Stadium opened, so a team's financial outlook is a lot better with an SSS than without.

I have to assume, then, that those teams (like the Toronto team) did not pay for those stadiums....I know quite a wee bit about financing real estate projects and stadiums and can guarantee you that those stadiums are nowhere near paid off yet....so someone else built them and the teams get to use them cheaply and keep the ancilliary revenue streams.....in other words someone built the stadiums to subsidize soccer.

So it is not, so much, that they are SSS but it is because of the cheap rent and access to revenue streams.....I bet you could have done that in football stadiums if the rent deal was right.

quote:

An oddity is the New England Revolution, whom Don Garber said was close to break even last season despite playing out of the cavernous Gilette Stadium. The fact that Robert Kraft owns the soccer team and the stadium (as well as the stadium's main tenant, the New England Patriots) probably has something to do with that.

See.....it is not the SSS that makes the teams more viable....it is cheap rent....which Kraft can give them cause he owns the whole thing!!!

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Not looking for NFL size crowds....but are you not the least bit disappointed that, at this stage of league's life, this weekend they could not reach a 13k average with games in NY, LA and Chicago?

Out of those three cities, only NY did not pull its weight, so to speak. LA had 17,000+, and Chicago outdrew its own capacity for the public safety match.

Don't really have time to respond to everything else as I'm about to leave work, but I have to say that despite our obvious difference of opinions on the matter, I'm enjoying this civilized discussion.

Contrast this to my constant debates with a malicious board regular who shall remain nameless, and this is rather refreshing!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Out of those three cities, only NY did not pull its weight, so to speak. LA had 17,000+, and Chicago outdrew its own capacity for the public safety match.

Don't really have time to respond to everything else as I'm about to leave work, but I have to say that despite our obvious difference of opinions on the matter, I'm enjoying this civilized discussion.

Contrast this to my constant debates with a malicious board regular who shall remain nameless, and this is rather refreshing!

just about to leave work...hahahahhahaha. those that live in glass houses...

one day rudi, me and you are going to get together get pissed and try to pick up ugly euro whores on the danford.

and we'll laugh.