Bobby de Guzman is Wrong! (Right about one thing)

[Ian Kennett]

Dead wrong! He is, obviously, looking out for his son's best interests, and good for him to promote the soccer opportunity for Jonathan; however, he has a couple of things dead wrong.

First of all, he is being vindictive about the CSA and the fact that somwhere along the line the coaching did not meet his expectations. I would prefer to see him say that he supports Johnathan playing for Canada, and then try to make informed suggestions about how Canadian coaching can improve. Yes, it is about money in Canada as far as coaching is concerned, but Canada will not likely improve its coaching expertise until we get on the soccer map, and players like Johnathan de Guzman are essential for Canada to make the next step. Revenge is a cold choice.

Second, Bobby is wrong to believe that his son will make more money if he plays for the Dutch national team. I believe that a player will make his endorsement money if he is a top player with a great club. Johnathan is well on his way to being that. He is already, apparently, making money with Adidas. Johnathan will never, and rightly so, play club soccer in Canada so he will never have money concerns as long as he plays at a top level in Europe which he likely will. Hence, he will not suffer financially for playing FOR Canada as opposed to IN Canada.

Third, I must confess that Bobby is right about one thing. It IS all about patriotism. Johnathan may well be in the place that he is because, and I have said it before, his dad received a new life in Canada when he moved here as a less advantaged man from another country. He should be grateful, but instead he has chosen another path. That is a shame and is the wrong approach. Perhaps it is all about the money - which isn't really an issue in the first place.

Yes, Bobby, you are absolutely correct. It IS about patriotism. Do you have any left?

And Johnathan, play with your brother, Julian. You will certainly be a wealthy man, but isn't the once-in-lifetime chance to play internationally with your own brother worth just a little bit? You can have your cake and eat it too. Why not team up with your brother and help lead us to the World Cup? What a legacy!

Cheers!

[Bertuzzi44]

Very nice. I agree with pretty much all you had to say.

It seems, though, that bobby has (or at least is trying to have) a big impact on his sons' decision. Hopefully JDG2 can make his own choice - and hopefully that choice is Maple Leaf red.

Plus, if everything continues as is, I believe Canada has a VERY good shot at making WC 2010. So the 'i can play in the world cup' argument kinda goes out the window...

[Guest speedmonk42]

The guy has been there since he was 12. I want him to play for Canada as much as anybody, but living there since age 12 pretty much makes him part of that community and perhaps a 50/50 choice. If we are going to make the same argument for players starting a new life in Canada, it has to work both ways. Him making a life there and playing there does not stink of the mercenary highest bidder nature of those that shall not be named.

I don't know anything about Mr DeGuzmans personal situation when he moved here,perhaps you do, but I would be very careful about stating 'as a less advantaged man'. People come here for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of situations.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The guy has been there since he was 12. I want him to play for Canada as much as anybody, but living there since age 12 pretty much makes him part of that community and perhaps a 50/50 choice. If we are going to make the same argument for players starting a new life in Canada, it has to work both ways.

I'd agree with you, but it doesn't seem to apply here.

Judging from Bobby's quotes, the motivation doesn't seem to patriotism or feeling Dutch, but rather the pursuit of more money.

If Jon simply feels more Dutch than Canadian at this point, we can't really fault him for that, as he has spent his formative years in Holland.

[bettermirror]

it is possible he was misquoted.

i look at a lot of clubs around the world who if they had kept all their players together they'd be world-beaters. west ham united being the prime example, of course. internationally, canada seems to be in a similar lot. if everyone who could choose us, did choose us, would they not be in a far superior situation? possibly. possibly not. but as mentioned above, the chance to create a legacy is improved ten-fold. however, as has been pointed out before, it is easy for us fans to moan about patriotism and honour.

[Guest Georgio]

"Right now he has a $50,000 contract with adidas for unlimited equipment. What do we have (in Canada), some orange juice or McCain stuff? It sounds selfish but career and money-wise in Europe it's far more advanced. Holland goes to the World Cup all the time. Canada's only been there once. There's a lot of other sides that people don't understand. They just look at the patriotic side," Bobby says.

"At 18 he's making more than I'll make in my lifetime. If you get on a European team like England, France or Holland ... we're absolutely talking millions and millions of dollars."

...............................

Your saying it's likely Jonathan's father spoke this much about money and he was misquoted? Ya right!

Bobby appears to have zero perspective for the extent of marketing in North America. He sees a developed football nation to latch onto and is shortsighted in this manner too.

[An Observer]

His father seems like one of those well known Tennis dads....money money money. I do think that his situation is different than Hargreaves. Deguzman has lived in Holland since he was 12 and if he feels Dutch, fine...let him play for the Netherlands. Hargreaves never lived in England and chose them ahead of Canada (the country of his birth), and Germany (the country that helped him develop his footballing talents). What I find objectionable about Bobby's comments is the slagging off of Canada which seems to be a country that helped him at one point.

Club football is about money, no question. National football is about patriotism. That is why the World Cup is so popular. If fans started believe that players were just choosing nationality on the basis of financial opportunities, the World Cup would lose its appeal over night and the Champions League would be the best ticket in town. What I find interesting, is that Jonathan wants to play for a country where on his father's own admission his youth side did not accept him as Captain only a few short years ago because he was not Dutch.

It seems his father's only concern is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Quite sad really for the kid.

[Canuck Oranje]

Hypothetically, I am convinced that being the best Canadian soccer player ever would generate much more financial opportunity than being the best Dutch player of a generation. The national team you play for has little impact on how much money you make. It is the size of the club team you play for, size and wealth of the country you come from (and your reputation in that country), and your worldwide marketability.

When Cruyff began playing for the Netherlands, its program was not much better than Canada's is today. Today, Cruyff is legendary and the Dutch program is better than most in Europe. More importantly, the Dutch was one of the World's best in 1974 with a large contribution from Cruyff.

The important thing for de Guzman is to think long term. Canadian soccer will be successful in spite of the CSA not because of it. You only need to look at Brazil's incompetent CBF and Brazil's continued success.

[Cheeta]

I'm going to wade in now that I've had a little time out.

Don't know if this Bill Lankhof fellow is a decent reporter or no, but he is scribbling for the Sun so that alone is already one mark against him even if the articule seems overall all right (despite the grim news). Good or bad his editors only give him so much ink and so typically it's not like he can report every part of every interview he's done with the family. There might be hours of stuff missing here and a few quotes by Bobby taken out of context may twist their intent completely. So it's hard for me to hung up on the "there's better money in playing for Holland" bit. Lankhof found a theme and ran with it. It was the easiest road and didn't require paragraphs and paragraphs of explaining the de Guzman's grievances big, small and inbetween, with the soccer establishment in Canada.

So don't hang Bobby if you can help it. Maybe I'm wrong. But it's hard to find some one so one dimensional.

To me the part that stands out so prominently is Julian saying that bit about Jon being a proud Canadian but football being something different. I mean how do you develop that sort of attitude? In something so nationalistic as football? I'm not judging anybody, I'm just curious because it seems so odd.

I'm especially curious as to how it is that the de Guzman's attitudes about putting on the Maple Leaf can be so different from not so many years ago. Now there's a story.

Teen star turns back on ever, ever having the opportunity to play shoulder to shoulder with his brother. Wonder why?

I've long complained that the CSA is just a big rec. sports association. Nothing more, nothing less. I suppose for some who may feel the same way as I do and who take their football a little more seriously it wouldn't take too much more to push them over the edge and into the waiting arms of say, the Dutch.

Is that saying "you lot aren't good enough for me"? After a fashion, I suppose. But it's more like "I'm serious. You're not." Under those circumstances I guess a fellow can still be a proud Canadian but not have to trouble themselves with the burden of playing internationaly for some CSA clown act.

Geezus. I don't think that time out helped me one bit.

P.S. Before anyone trys to tear me a new one for CSA bashing I'm not saying Joe or Bob or Mary at the CSA are all incompitent. But as a whole the organization certainly is at far too many levels.

P.S.S. Politics in football, Bobby? Have you even been to Holland?

P.S.S.S. Pretty much agree with everything Speedmonk42 wrote. Canada's immigration policy of the last 25 years has been far, far from generous. We've more than any other western nation perfected the art of cherry picking the best and brightest from the upper middle classes of the 3rd world. Very nice.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Canada's immigration policy of the last 25 years has been far, far from generous. We've more than any other western nation perfected the art of cherry picking the best and brightest from the upper middle classes of the 3rd world. Very nice.

...and allowing those who aren't the best and brightest to pay their way in.

It bothers me a lot that our tops players are happy to pull on the Maple Leaf until they become too good for us. However Jonathan being there since 12 at least gives him some credibility playing for Holland, even if his Dad is only thinking about "Freedom 45", as he himself put it in past articles.

McCain's was good enough for supper ten years ago, don't see why it isn't now...!

[Guest speedmonk42]

Hidden forces.

I really don't know these people at all, I too found the slagging of Canada a bit unclassey, however it may be representative of another frustration.

The thing none of these players will talk about, and Bobby would be crazy to talk about, as it would destroy them and hurt other Canadian players is that you cannot seperate the two careers.

It may well be all about money, but not necessarily in the way we think. If playing for Canada effectively ENDS your pro career it would change everyone on this boards opinion pretty darn fast were they in the same situation.

Play for us we will make you a millionaire soccer superstar, play for Canada you are on your own. That is a tough choice, wether or not it is explicitly stated by the club doesn't matter(it is against 'the rules'), the implication is there.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Judging from Bobby's quotes, the motivation doesn't seem to patriotism or feeling Dutch, but rather the pursuit of more money.

------------

Well his brother didn't talk like that, he talked about speaking the language, driving his first car.... ect...

So I don't know. Like I said, I want him on our squad and I realize how important a catalyst even a single player can be. I do though, think we are on our way, perhaps that more than anything is why this does not bother me so much.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

Well his brother didn't talk like that, he talked about speaking the language, driving his first car.... ect...

Yes. I suspect Julian is a bit more diplomatic, and of course not as driven by the money as his dad.

[Blue and White Army]

If Johnno doesn't want to play for Canada, then f*ck him.

Simple as that. No three-month Whoregreave-style debate is necessary, me thinks!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army

If Johnno doesn't want to play for Canada, then f*ck him.

Simple as that. No three-month Whoregreave-style debate is necessary, me thinks!

The lord give Marc Birchman and takes away Owen. And if we lose this young man, so be it.

Karma.

[bettermirror]

quote:Originally posted by Georgio

Your saying it's likely Jonathan's father spoke this much about money and he was misquoted? Ya right!

i said it was possible. not likely.

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The lord give Marc Birchman and takes away Owen. And if we lose this young man, so be it.

Karma.

Why are you even on this board?

Your posts have demonstrated that you clearly don't give a $hit about Canadian soccer.

Isn't there a "Lonely internet trolls from Montreal" site you can infest rather than spewing your crap here every day?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Domi Rulezz

Why are you even on this board?

Your posts have demonstrated that you clearly don't give a $hit about Canadian soccer.

Isn't there a "Lonely internet trolls from Montreal" site you can infest rather than spewing your crap here every day?

pardon me?

we love it when guys play for us from others countries (I think Birchman's grandmother flew over Gander once), but get upset when our guys play for someone else. It's a double standard.

And if stating that is trolling. So be it. At least my hero isn't a washed up goon who does more harm to his team than good.

[Soju]

That didn't look like trolling to me, he's just saying it's out of our hands which it is. Back to Speedmonk's points. Players eligible to represent more than one country could be facing a lot of pressure from their clubs to "make the right choice". I wonder if we looked closely at the choices these players have made in past, would we see a pattern?

[Bill Spiers]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

I'm going to wade in now that I've had a little time out.

Don't know if this Bill Lankhof fellow is a decent reporter or no, but he is scribbling for the Sun so that alone is already one mark against him even if the articule seems overall all right (despite the grim news). Good or bad his editors only give him so much ink and so typically it's not like he can report every part of every interview he's done with the family. There might be hours of stuff missing here and a few quotes by Bobby taken out of context may twist their intent completely. So it's hard for me to hung up on the "there's better money in playing for Holland" bit. Lankhof found a theme and ran with it. It was the easiest road and didn't require paragraphs and paragraphs of explaining the de Guzman's grievances big, small and inbetween, with the soccer establishment in Canada.

So don't hang Bobby if you can help it. Maybe I'm wrong. But it's hard to find some one so one dimensional.

To follow up on Cheeta's comments - Bobby de Guzman was at the Hall of Fame Induction Dinner on Saturday in Woodbridge. I had a nice chat with about his two sons. He is, naturally, very proud of both of them.

They are disappointed with some of the negative media coverage they have received. I can only suggest - as Cheeta has - that you take what you read in the newspapers with a grain of salt!

(They are also disappointed that Feyenoord lost out to Ajax in the Dutch playoffs for a Champions League position).

All of them read (or used to read) forums such as this but are, naturally, turned off by some of the comments being posted.

I took the opportunity to push my hope that Jonathan pulls on a Canadian jersey one day and both brothers end up in the Hall of Fame after successful careers in professional soccer. Bottom line, though, it's Jonathan's decision who he plays for - not Bobby's.

[bettermirror]

g-man. i agree with you about the double standard. a lot of folks on this board have taken exception to this belief and will continue to do so. who is to say iain hume wouldn't qualify for scotland these days!?

play where you are born barring exceptional circumstances.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

That didn't look like trolling to me, he's just saying it's out of our hands which it is. Back to Speedmonk's points. Players eligible to represent more than one country could be facing a lot of pressure from their clubs to "make the right choice". I wonder if we looked closely at the choices these players have made in past, would we see a pattern?

Well it worked out superbly for Brad Parker. Starting 11 at Feyenoord last week, right?

[Dante79]

if that idiot doest wanna play for Canada and is more interested in $$$$$, then let him, we dont need guys like that here~!:(

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

To follow up on Cheeta's comments - Bobby de Guzman was at the Hall of Fame Induction Dinner on Saturday in Woodbridge. I had a nice chat with about his two sons. He is, naturally, very proud of both of them.

They are disappointed with some of the negative media coverage they have received. I can only suggest - as Cheeta has - that you take what you read in the newspapers with a grain of salt!

(They are also disappointed that Feyenoord lost out to Ajax in the Dutch playoffs for a Champions League position).

All of them read (or used to read) forums such as this but are, naturally, turned off by some of the comments being posted.

I took the opportunity to push my hope that Jonathan pulls on a Canadian jersey one day and both brothers end up in the Hall of Fame after successful careers in professional soccer. Bottom line, though, it's Jonathan's decision who he plays for - not Bobby's.

Thanks for posting this Bill. Interesting to hear these thoughts.

I am glad Bobby is proud of his sons - as he should be. We, as Canadian fans are proud of them as well (especially if both end up playing for Canada). But I do not see the negative media coverage to which he refers. In fact, it seems to me at least that both are portrayed quite positively by the writers. It is the way Bobby portrays Candian soccer that is the negative aspect of the articles.

[Timotas]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

His father seems like one of those well known Tennis dads....money money money. I do think that his situation is different than Hargreaves. Deguzman has lived in Holland since he was 12 and if he feels Dutch, fine...let him play for the Netherlands. Hargreaves never lived in England and chose them ahead of Canada (the country of his birth), and Germany (the country that helped him develop his footballing talents). What I find objectionable about Bobby's comments is the slagging off of Canada which seems to be a country that helped him at one point.

Club football is about money, no question. National football is about patriotism. That is why the World Cup is so popular. If fans started believe that players were just choosing nationality on the basis of financial opportunities, the World Cup would lose its appeal over night and the Champions League would be the best ticket in town. What I find interesting, is that Jonathan wants to play for a country where on his father's own admission his youth side did not accept him as Captain only a few short years ago because he was not Dutch.

It seems his father's only concern is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Quite sad really for the kid.

Agree 100%. You don't chose a country for the financial aspect, you chose it to feel patriotic and help your country of birth. Exactly why the World Cup is so incredibly popular.

If Bobby wants JDG2 to play for Holland for the money... then I hope he never comes back to Canada . And if he does...... well we'll see what happens