Jump to content

Question for supporters groups


10

Recommended Posts

This is for the Ultras, U-Sector, Southsiders etc, etc....I was just wondering which of the three Canadian teams (Impact, Whitecaps and Tor MLS)have the largest following? I'm not talking attendance as I know Montreal leads in that department but which club has the largest supporters club?? Keeping in mind estimates for the #'s for Toronto's new team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest HamiltonSteelers

Thanks Sigma. It's nice to be lumped with the company of the larger supporters groups.

And as far as the not having a team thing, that status should be changing sooner than later.

Active members: a dozen (give or take a few). Triple that number in active lurkers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Difficult to say for sure but I suspect the Toronto Ultras (or U-Sector or whatever we are called these days) has the most former members - ie. the most people that joined the movement, got fed up with out pathetic the Toronto situation was and left.

The Toronto group has recently doubled in size in terms of regular members.....just from the MLS expansion team announcement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Gian-Luca

The Toronto group has recently doubled in size in terms of regular members.....just from the MLS expansion team announcement.

This is kind of what i was fishing for. The success of any club really relies on these type of rabid followers...not only are they your season holders, but they will also indirectly (i believe) push the average fan to buy tickets...through the atmosphere created etc..

more importantly though they are not like the fickle fan and support through thick and thin....i am so glad to see that whatever size they may be, these clubs exist for all our canadian pro teams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Difficult to say for sure but I suspect the Toronto Ultras (or U-Sector or whatever we are called these days) has the most former members - ie. the most people that joined the movement, got fed up with out pathetic the Toronto situation was and left.

The Toronto group has recently doubled in size in terms of regular members.....just from the MLS expansion team announcement.

It had picked up last year oddly enough due to new faces. The previous year (2004)was really the down year whereby on average you were lucky if 12 people showed up to a game. Last year got a bit closer to 20. Bit still nowhere near to the 20-30 ( aprox) that would show up in the years circa 2001-2003.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

It is erroneous to think that the Southsiders are the main supporter's group of the Whitecaps.

I discovered this summer that this is a fiction that they themselves have liked to promote, but that indeed a much larger group of people without a clear name or identity chant, sing and support the Caps on the south side of Swangard. And the Southsiders separate themselves from them and do their stuff in rather sectarian fashion in the corner. While the supporter's section has women, children and a mix of ages, the Southsiders end up looking a bit too homogenous.

I think this is fine to happen, there is no reason why there has to be just one section. Most clubs have various and even competiting supporters groups, and the stadium will often benefit from the environment they create, as there are multiple focuses of energy. One day a crazy guy stands up in a section and gets them cheering and in the end, what is the basic difference between those fans and the self-proposed "official" supporters section? I'd say it is basically the ego and big-headedness of those types whose greatest aspiration is to be "the" group instead of appreciating the others.

If MLSE only listens to the sectarian types who are promoting the so called U-section for the Toronto team they'll end up merely catering to their tendencies towards sectarianism. Which is why I think they are taking most of what is being called "research" on these boards with a large bag of salt. They are not as stupid as some are making them out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is there a barely veiled agenda behind so many of your posts Jeffrey? It is no secret you don't get along with some of the Southsiders and U-section posters on this board et viola, a post criticising both sections and pretty much the opinions of the board as a whole. You are like a mixture of a very good poster and a troller just trying to pick fights with people. I don't see the need for this because you are one of the most knowledgeable soccer fans on the board. Why can't you just stick to soccer in your posts and cut out all of the cheap shots at other posters and wild speculations of anti-latinism in Canada and the CSA? People with chips on their shoulders get tiresome very quickly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Why is there a barely veiled agenda behind so many of your posts Jeffrey? It is no secret you don't get along with some of the Southsiders and U-section posters on this board et viola, a post criticising both sections and pretty much the opinions of the board as a whole. You are like a mixture of a very good poster and a troller just trying to pick fights with people. I don't see the need for this because you are one of the most knowledgeable soccer fans on the board. Why can't you just stick to soccer in your posts and cut out all of the cheap shots at other posters and wild speculations of anti-latinism in Canada and the CSA? People with chips on their shoulders get tiresome very quickly?

Why don't you just respond to the comments I made and leave it at that, if you have anything to say. Having an agenda or having an opinion or even harping on a theme is typical, I would say, of most people on this board. So why do you point to me?

Look Grizzly, even after we spoke reasonably here about my frustrations with Fernandes and I even admitted my line about a certain cultural bias could have had some weaknesses (at least you reasonably tried to point them out, which I appreciated), you still have come on here and used that against me in completely unrelated posts. After the fact. I did not call you on it, I left it, but it was a bit backstabbing on your part. I mean, when someone backs off a bit on this board and admits another might have some validity in their arguments, the idea is usually to give them some margin. You have not done that with me. Your very post proves my opinion, as it has nothing to do with my argument: the supposed real, cool, authentic supporter groups for the Canadian clubs that have strutted their stuff on these boards are often full of it, apart from being essentially divisive or sectarian types who will live off a certain disdain for other soccer fans.

I am not sure you are one of them.

In any case, since there is a bunch of people you seem to support who will end up dominating the Voyageurs entirely if we let them -just as they want to dominate the future of supporter groups for the TO MLS team, which I think they won't for reasons related to MLSE- it is better for me for now not to jump on the normative, yeah-saying bandwagon and take these rabble-rousing angles. I think if these guys have their way they will kill Voyageurs in the name of their own closed mindsets and social clique. And drive off many from outside TO, as they have already done by letting this board be dominated by Lynx BS in a country where Impact and Whitecaps have been far more significant teams with much greater public support.

So sure, me digging away like this is a rhetorical device, just like heckling might be, or sarcasm, or irony, or pontificating. We are just fans after all, I don't know why guys have to be so big-headed about how and where and to who things should be said on a frigging fan-forum.

Trust me, Grizzly, if you guys think that the little research started by an MLSE guy, on his own admission without being asked to do so by his boss, is a serious thread, you are tremendously naive. The guy is either very young and inexperience; or, after meeting a few of the guys here, decided that we were rather childish and immature and came on here accordingly; or just as well he is trying to get brownie points with his boss; or is doing "field research" for a Marketing MA, which might explain why he is so flexible, cool, and obliging, even to everyone's nemesis G-Man .

Anyone who has even suggested that the guy is a goof, or not really from MLSE (which I am sure he is), or has absolutely minimal power to influence anything, has been drowned out by the cheerleaders and wannabees who actually think they are mature in taking him seriously. That deserves at least a bit of cynicism and the odd destroyer post, which is the only way I have to keep from puking at the behaviour of some of the other supposedly intelligent types on these boards.

You'll get used to it, I assure you. When I studied classical guitar I played Sor and Villalobos and thought them sweet, and was first taken aback by Leo Brouwer: that was musical dissidence. But now I listen to Derek Bailey and other free improvisers, and Brouwer does not seem so radical anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grizzly, albeit I am a new poster but Jeffrey does raise a good point. When I had orignally posted the question I really did think these groups numbered >100. Naivity maybe, but 20 - 30??? Having said that how easy, and welcoming are these groups to new joiners? The atmosphere, chanting and dare I say - tailgating - that must be routine before taking in a footy match surely must be something others would love to be a part of. Especially since it is done in the same passionate style as the purists "back home" do it.

Having read the thread on mls research some EXCELLENT points raised, but also some that suggest catering to '20 - 30' people in a 20k stadium? So now for my point, the idea of U-Sector (or insert generic supporters name here) is brilliant and neccessary for MLS to thrive in the Livable City, but is an official supporters club something the fans should organize, or is it the club's responsibility - so that it can include as many members as possible??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK I will respond to the points:

quote: It is erroneous to think that the Southsiders are the main supporter's group of the Whitecaps.

I discovered this summer that this is a fiction that they themselves have liked to promote, but that indeed a much larger group of people without a clear name or identity chant, sing and support the Caps on the south side of Swangard. And the Southsiders separate themselves from them and do their stuff in rather sectarian fashion in the corner. While the supporter's section has women, children and a mix of ages, the Southsiders end up looking a bit too homogenous.

I think this is fine to happen, there is no reason why there has to be just one section. Most clubs have various and even competiting supporters groups, and the stadium will often benefit from the environment they create, as there are multiple focuses of energy. One day a crazy guy stands up in a section and gets them cheering and in the end, what is the basic difference between those fans and the self-proposed "official" supporters section? I'd say it is basically the ego and big-headedness of those types whose greatest aspiration is to be "the" group instead of appreciating the others.

Up to here I can live with the post. This is your opinion of the Southsiders and as I have never attended a Whitecaps game I can not offer any comment on its validity. I certainly do not think this is true of either the U-section or Impact Ultras groups. I also am suspicious about your objectivity in this matter as you have a history going back several years of arguing and disliking several Southsiders who post here. The use of the word sectarian is a bit over the top as it implies some sort of aggressive action against or disdain of other fans. It is normal in any sporting event that the most vocal fans group together where they can make as much noise as possible and celebrate away from others who may not enjoy their form of support. You point out this as normal but then criticize the Southsiders for doing this. I also don't remember anyone on this board suggesting the Southsiders were the only Caps fan group or that you had to be a Southsider to be a true Caps supporter. Every team has fans who support in a very vocal manner and fans who don't like this and usually people know which section to sit in for the atmosphere they like. It is also normal that a supporters group has a smaller core of member supporters which is then joined in singing by another larger group of less formally affiliated fans. The non-supporter group people who sit in these sections are also often quite vocal so I don't see much evidence that there is anything different in Vancouver than what happens at soccer matches throughout the world.

quote:If MLSE only listens to the sectarian types who are promoting the so called U-section for the Toronto team they'll end up merely catering to their tendencies towards sectarianism. Which is why I think they are taking most of what is being called "research" on these boards with a large bag of salt. They are not as stupid as some are making them out.

You have no idea who MLSE is listening to or what their attitude is to the feedback they are receiving. How many Lynx games have you been to in forming your assessment of the U-section? I haven't been to any Lynx games either but I did attend two Canada matches with many of the U-sector members and found them to be neither exclusive nor sectarian. Nor do I find the Impact ultras to be exclusive or sectarian. Some fans prefer to support vigourously and other watch the game quietly. Those who want to sing and scream stand with us and those that don't do not. Noone is forced to sing and scream with us. If fans are not allowed to stand together and sing because it is sectarianism and not every other fan enjoys this than the whole soccer fan culture will be lost. MLSE should be and probably is listening to many groups from soccer moms to ultras and fortunately we are one of them. You are implying that they are not and should not be taking us seriously and I do not agree with this. I also suspect that again it has something to do with your personal opinion of some of the U-sector members. As for the number of supporter club members, I think Montreal has about 20-30 very dedicated members and a larger group of about 100 that stands with them every game. This is pretty typical of supporter groups everywhere.

quote:Trust me, Grizzly, if you guys think that the little research started by an MLSE guy, on his own admission without being asked to do so by his boss, is a serious thread, you are tremendously naive. The guy is either very young and inexperience; or, after meeting a few of the guys here, decided that we were rather childish and immature and came on here accordingly; or just as well he is trying to get brownie points with his boss; or is doing "field research" for a Marketing MA, which might explain why he is so flexible, cool, and obliging, even to everyone's nemesis G-Man .

Anyone who has even suggested that the guy is a goof, or not really from MLSE (which I am sure he is), or has absolutely minimal power to influence anything, has been drowned out by the cheerleaders and wannabees who actually think they are mature in taking him seriously. That deserves at least a bit of cynicism and the odd destroyer post, which is the only way I have to keep from puking at the behaviour of some of the other supposedly intelligent types on these boards.

We have reliable accounts that the poster is indeed from MLSE. Although he has not revealed his name and position (I don't blame him for this), he has otherwise been fairly honest about not being a top boss nor doing this in any official capacity. It is good someone from the organization is taking interest in our views and hopefully we might have some small influence on developments. It is also quite possible that we are just wasting our time on the thread but if you think that is the case then don't bother posting. Your last line is certainly very arrogant and lacking in respect for some other posters who do not share your views.

quote:In any case, since there is a bunch of people you seem to support who will end up dominating the Voyageurs entirely if we let them -just as they want to dominate the future of supporter groups for the TO MLS team, which I think they won't for reasons related to MLSE- it is better for me for now not to jump on the normative, yeah-saying bandwagon and take these rabble-rousing angles. I think if these guys have their way they will kill Voyageurs in the name of their own closed mindsets and social clique. And drive off many from outside TO, as they have already done by letting this board be dominated by Lynx BS in a country where Impact and Whitecaps have been far more significant teams with much greater public support.

Noone dominates these boards. People are free to post their opinions and some people agree and others disagree. The mods do not intervene very often in legitimate discussion. Some views are more popular than others but that is natural. It is also natural that people who know each other personally may have a better relation than those who do not. However, I do not see any evidence of the large cliques you claim are dominating the board. Nor do I see any evidence of a conspiracy of club support groups to dominate this board, their own stadium or the MLS team.

quote:Why don't you just respond to the comments I made and leave it at that, if you have anything to say. Having an agenda or having an opinion or even harping on a theme is typical, I would say, of most people on this board. So why do you point to me?

Look Grizzly, even after we spoke reasonably here about my frustrations with Fernandes and I even admitted my line about a certain cultural bias could have had some weaknesses (at least you reasonably tried to point them out, which I appreciated), you still have come on here and used that against me in completely unrelated posts. After the fact. I did not call you on it, I left it, but it was a bit backstabbing on your part. I mean, when someone backs off a bit on this board and admits another might have some validity in their arguments, the idea is usually to give them some margin. You have not done that with me. Your very post proves my opinion, as it has nothing to do with my argument: the supposed real, cool, authentic supporter groups for the Canadian clubs that have strutted their stuff on these boards are often full of it, apart from being essentially divisive or sectarian types who will live off a certain disdain for other soccer fans.

I will admit that you haven't mentioned the latin discrimination thing since we discussed it and that is positive in my opinion. What bothers me is that it has been replaced by several personal attacks, in particular the one against Gianluca. Gianluca made a mild comment about a poster who constantly makes repetitive, poorly reasoned, baiting posts. If you like G-man's posts you could have stated this and that you disagree with Gianluca. However, instead you went into a vast criticism of Gianluca as a person including calling him names and questioning his professional integrity. It wasn't just over the line it was way over the line and deserving of an apology. It is one thing to give deserved criticism to posters who are not adding anything to a debate and only baiting other posters. It is also perfectly fine to argue against their point of view. It is another thing when we start personally attacking legitimate posters even if we don't agree with them or find them irritating.

As far as G-man goes he actually had a couple of posts in this MLSE thread where he raised some legitimate points but unfortunately quickly returned to his repetitive, poorly reasoned rhetorical style. Maybe G-man has some potential as a poster but it is up to him to change people's opinions of him by making reasoned posts and not trying to bait people. He is not required to change his view on MLS and the stadium to be respected here but he won't get any respect until he changes the way he expresses this view.

Why am I pointing at you, Jeffrey? There is a good number of regular posters here who I think have a good knowledge of the game and make interesting well constructed arguments. I would include yourself, Gianluca, Freekick, Mathew, el Hombre, Gordon and many others in this group. I have agreed and disagreed with many of these posters on various issue including MLS, the stadium, Edmonton, Yallop, Onstad. However, whether or not I agree with them on a certain topic it is not very often that a red flag goes up when I am reading their posts that something is at play other than the issue at hand. With you I often feel that personal antagonism towards several other posters is often mixed in to your arguments as well as the previously mentioned opinions on the place of Anglo-Saxon and Latin cultures in Canadian society. I think your posts would be much better without these "foreign, ie. not pertaining to the subject" elements. Noone including Gianluca and those you regard as his friends are stopping you from expressing your opinion nor are they saying you have to agree with them. Thus there is no reason to react in such an aggressive manner against these posters and in doing so it is you who are guilty of the sectarianism.

quote:You'll get used to it, I assure you. When I studied classical guitar I played Sor and Villalobos and thought them sweet, and was first taken aback by Leo Brouwer: that was musical dissidence. But now I listen to Derek Bailey and other free improvisers, and Brouwer does not seem so radical anymore.

You play classical guitar? I like you better already!;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

I don't play classical guitar anymore.

A lone person isolated geographically from others on this board is not sectarian. He may be isolated, he may even be independent, and he may disagree. When I went to Santander I was alone, but I still made a small Voyageurs poster and put it up in the press section. There were a few isolated Canadian flags out there in the stadium. Those people had balls, were dedicated to Canada, and were not coming on here (as none did) trying to show off.

The handful of guys trying to make themselves out as an important supporters group (Gianluca claiming they have doubled their numbers IN THE OFFSEASON is the most hilarious piece of juvenile bragging we have seen here in years; based on that argument the Caps and Impact have disappeared entirely over the past few months) are a bit sectarian. In the end they'll kill Voyageurs, I am sure of it. It'll just end up as their board and everyone else will be encouraged to put up or shut up.

As for me supposedly picking on Gian-luca, it has gone the other way for quite a while now, though he is a subtle guy. Was the only person on the entire board to defend Gerba in the Spain game, which after I delivered an extensive report on the match was his niggling way of trying to get at me, since I saw a terrible performance in a Canada uniform from the guy. If I don't like it, he defends it, he is as knee-jerk as you could be. Which is why I am going to wholeheartedly support Italy on these boards in the World Cup, just to see how he squirms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good on you and any other Canadians who come out to support our team in other countries. I personally think it is too bad the other in Santander did not post here and probably do not even know about the site.

I still fail to see how Gianluca or anyone else is hijacking this board. You and other posters with various views post frequently and are encouraged to do so. The posters who are heavily criticized and not encouraged to post are those who make frequent, repetitive posts intended to disrupt threads. This includes G-Man and several others but certainly not yourself. The board may have gone downhill a bit in the last year but this is not due to a group of posters but to the fact that a World Cup is coming up that we are not part of which will and should put any passionate supporters group into a collective bad mood.

As far as your conflict with Gianluca goes, either he is very subtle or you are a bit paranoid and adverse to criticism. I have not noticed him picking on you so I am inclined to believe the later but assuming you are right then you should reply with the same subtlety as he does and criticize only the contents of his posts without using insults. Reacting in the way you did certainly discredits you on the board far more than anything Gianluca could post. I don't see anything out of place with either your or Gianluca's posts regarding Gerba. In fact, you two are not all that far apart on the issue, you thought Gerba was poor (I agreed with you on this by the way as did most of the other posters on the thread) and Gianluca thought he was mediocre and that you were being a bit overly hard on him. The views are not that far apart. I don't see why you would take Gianluca's disagreement with you on this so personally. There are also legitimate posters on this board who have very different opinions and rarely agree but this doesn't have to be seen as anything more than diversity of opinion. If you do feel he is constantly criticizing your posts than try and ask him about this by private message. Insulting him will not solve anything and will hurt your reputation on the board not his. It also makes people sceptical about the motives behind your posts, for example, reading the conflicts you have had with members of both the Southsiders and U-section posters made me quite sceptical about a very negative posting about these two groups particularly as it came so soon after your posts attacking Gianluca.

I want you to keep posting even if you are no longer a member of the hallowed group known as classical guitarists (a shame considering you are living in the homeland). I just think you should lighten up a bit and not take everything so personally because I would much rather read your opinion on soccer matters than your opinion on Gianluca. Otherwise I think you are free to post what you want on any subject. One of the worst things about the MLS Toronto and stadium issues is that after a few critical posts by legitmate members who opposed the MLS and stadium, this side of the issue was hijacked by the kooks. This in turn seemed to scare the legitimate posters of this viewpoint from getting too involved in the debate turning it into a one sided affair of reasoned posts by the pro side againsts those of trollers. I don't enjoy reading boring, repetitive, poorly presented trolling posts on any side of any issue. I personally would be more than happy to read reasoned posts by those opposing MLS and the stadium even if I don't agree with their view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

I am still waiting for a few others on this board to come out and question the attitude of those making lists of stupid fellow Voyageurs, or baiting those not in support of MSL Toronto or the like. I don't know why I have to be the one standing up for the little guys at Voyageurs who may be critical, cynical or less articulate, but someone has to do it, as the demographics of the board are being weighed more and more to the institutional lackeys of MLSE TO and their circle, in detriment to those supporting other clubs or in other provinces. The Quebec contigent, once small, has fled, the Albertans are not made to feel comfortable, and the Vancouverites mostly go about their business without having to strut like roosters in doing so.

Of those acting like official propogandists and orchestrating the little list-making the only one who insists on his right to do so and refuses to ever admit he is out of line is Gian-luca. All you have to do is look at his hysterical reaction to anyone who dared to question him on that thread -where not just a few agreed with me, or haven't you noticed- where he never backed off and was, of course, the person who insisted on having the last word on everything there, or his incredible rudeness to those who disagrees with him or at least question his "contact" on the so-called "research" thread.

But this is part and parcel. Many of the Lynx Ultras bunch -like a few of the Southsider bunch- have regularly bad-mouthed the other fans going to the games, have always played themselves as the "real and only" die hard supporters, including throwing scorn at children and families at games (the golden bachelor fan club are they?). At Lynx this has to be considered even more pathetic, since it is obvious that anyone consistently watching a badly run losing team in a poor setting is pretty damn dedicated to the team and the sport. Including families (incredibly these guys will then come out and glowingly speak of how their dad or grandad took them to games when kids and how they caught the soccer bug at an early age, a privilege they will now deny other generations of kids). Which is why I referred to the 1950 other fans of the 2000 attending. Why they think they are so important I don't know, but don't tell me they are not isolated and sectarian in their attitude.

As for the Southsiders, my opinion was formed after being in Vancouver, not before. I was in Van this summer, had contact with the Caps (including conversing with three different players at length and with a legend, Sammy Lenarduzzi) and found a different reality than what I was led to believe by their posts here and on their web. Only after that I started to challenge some, like Krammerhead, on his attempts to bait the Impact supporters here. I never posted against the Southsiders before I was there this summer, but I now realize that they were not only fringe but unrepresentative even within the context of "ultra" or "end-zone type" vociferous supporters at Swangard.

So as I see it, I am defending a principle, however ineptly I may be doing so. This bothers others here, some perhaps because of my poor phrasing of my ideas, others because they don't like to be criticized. But I am encouraged by the few people who have supported this line or have even given those of us who are not so quick to swallow the crap we are being fed here some credit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree with very much of this post but don't have time to respond to each point. As far as you only posting about Krammerhead after this summer though, you have been arguing with him for years going back to the old board. This has only stopped because he stopped posting here so maybe it is you driving some of the people away. There has been no noticeable drop in supporters from different regions. There has been a general drop in posters lately in keeping with the fact that most of our players are on winter break, all of the Canadian teams are on winter break and our national team is not in the World Cup nor has it been particularly active in recent times. If you want to ally yourself with G-Man and Doyle G and spearhead the anti-MLSE crowd then knock yourself out. Spare us the conspiracy theories about GL and the pro-MLSE posters though, you are free to post as much as you want about the subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

In any case, since there is a bunch of people you seem to support who will end up dominating the Voyageurs entirely if we let them -just as they want to dominate the future of supporter groups for the TO MLS team, which I think they won't for reasons related to MLSE- it is better for me for now not to jump on the normative, yeah-saying bandwagon and take these rabble-rousing angles. I think if these guys have their way they will kill Voyageurs in the name of their own closed mindsets and social clique. And drive off many from outside TO, as they have already done by letting this board be dominated by Lynx BS in a country where Impact and Whitecaps have been far more significant teams with much greater public support.

Wow.

Clearly you're taking a shot at the U-Sector here. It must be incredibly easy to paint an entire group of people (that you've never met) with such a broad stroke. And from so far away. How convenient.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I am not a Lynx supporter. I had previously attended Lynx games up until about 3 years ago when became I fed up with the 'product' and clear lack of motivation by the front office, and decided to bide my time until something professional actually came along. Until two months ago, I had never met anyone from this board, not even the guys from the Toronto area.

Yet, when they started having their MLS-related gatherings, they welcomed people like myself, RealGooner, BusanBhoy, and others who were not part of the U-Sector with open arms.

I did not sense any 'sectarianism' or divisiveness. What I found was a good group of people who loved soccer as much as I do and welcomed all the support that they could.

Of course, just because you had some bad experiences with the Southsiders in Vancouver, you're now entitled to paint all supporters groups in Canada with the same brush. Isn't that great?

Maybe if you stepped down from your soapbox for a second and actually saw what the U-Sector and other supporters groups in Canada are trying to accomplish, you'll see that they're not the big, bad boogeymen you make them out to be.

Or you can just keep up with the condescending posts from all the way over there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by 10

Having read the thread on mls research some EXCELLENT points raised, but also some that suggest catering to '20 - 30' people in a 20k stadium? So now for my point, the idea of U-Sector (or insert generic supporters name here) is brilliant and neccessary for MLS to thrive in the Livable City, but is an official supporters club something the fans should organize, or is it the club's responsibility - so that it can include as many members as possible??

A couple of things to note here. The Toronto Ultras were never the official supporters club of the Toronto Lynx. There was/is an official supporters club consisting of about 3 or 4 members, as far as we could tell. There really wasn't much call for the Ultras to be official with the Lynx (though plenty of call for us not to be).

As for the numbers, its about 30 or so people now for the MLS supporters group, but obviously we hope that it will grow to a far more substantial level than that, and as it is still well over a year before this team even plays a game, I wouldn't think the numbers are actually too bad at this point. Things will heat up considerably when we actually are close to having a game played.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I don't want a new poster's first thread to be hijacked off the rails entirely and because I frankly don't have all day, I will just respond to some of Jeffrey's points about the supporters clubs, and not comment on his wild, and surprisingly paranoid accusations about me. However as I mentioned the last time this happened, I don't mind at all if people start a "Why Gian-Luca is an ass" thread if they so wish they can even get the mods to sticky it if they want (I have a thick skin as well as a thick skull), I just don't think we should hijack existing threads to do so, and this is the second time its happened within the last week.

Generally on the Toronto Ultras side (I can't speak for the Montreal Ultras or the South-siders) I think Jeffrey you are making the mistake of taking a lot of the posts that make fun of all the kids & soccer-moms that attend games as being an attack on them, when they have for the most part been an attack on the Lynx ownership that caters exclusively to that market, specifically for that reason, along with the fact that they do a poor job of catering to the market. That German article that someone posted a little while ago was spot on. When I was a kid I & my fellow friends, siblings & cousins of that age were catered to as well, but not exclusively so. I was a member of the Blizzard Booster Club, a special supporters club for kids that the Blizzard set up. I got my free team poster, a signed colour photo of the Blizzard player of my choice (Ivan Lukacevic, in case you were wondering - he was my favourite player because of his last name) & other stuff that appeals to kids. However, at the games itself I wasn't asked to not pay attention to the soccer on the field the way that all too often happens at Lynx games with the kids of today, and never was a game scheduled so that adult or even adolescent soccer fans couldn't attend. I don't blame the kids for going nuts when a team mascot comes into the stands and starts throwing bags of Unico pasta at them during the game (which happened last year) - if I was that age I would do the same thing. I do criticize the ownership for having a strategy that appeals exclusively to kids, and yet at the same time then encourages those kids to not actually pay attention to the game while its on. Its this sort of attitude which has caused a lot of fans, including some die-hard fans like Franky, to drop out of the movement or not to join a supporters club in the first place.

Had they catered for both markets, rather than just kids, and catered to them properly, perhaps they wouldn't be the mess they are in now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Lots of stuff posted from all over the board that i think I need to weigh in on (Asbestos underwhere has returned form the cleaners so I am feeling brave). I am going ot post it here simply for the sake of my convenience.

First. Making lists of poor posters is not something that should be done. Period. Sorry, it is just plain wrong, one man's poor poster is another poster's friend and ally. Haven't weighed in previously because I am not without sin and have been arrogant and condescending on occasion - and not always with regrets. I agree with Jeffrey on this.

Second. Jeffrey I think you have stepped over the line ascibing motives to Gian-Luca and commenting upon things outside his on board persona. He, like myself, yourself and virtually every other poster on this board has quirks which range from harmless to mildly irritating. We could all make lists about each other, I am sure. None of us are above reproach. But it is neither reasonable nor fair to make observations about someone's real life character from posts on a message board. And of course, you are not alone in this. Done it myself once or twice. Would say a few others have as well. Some currently.

Third. There is some disconnect that is happening here and many are too quick to dismiss many of Jeffrey's points. Griz, seriously, if you truely think: "One of the worst things about the MLS Toronto and stadium issues is that after a few critical posts by legitmate members who opposed the MLS and stadium, this side of the issue was hijacked by the kooks. This in turn seemed to scare the legitimate posters of this viewpoint from getting too involved in the debate turning it into a one sided affair of reasoned posts by the pro side againsts those of trollers." then you are fooling yourself. Many of us don't post as much as we might, or stopped entirely, is because the 'other side' has its fair share of "kooks and trolls", and even when debating the "reasonable" posters it is often equivalent to banging ones head against a brick wall as there is simply a refusal to even acknowledge a differing point of view. Toronto is now taboo on this board, bring it up and the wagons get circled, with kooks firing alongside the reasonable posters, the latter apparently able to turn a blind eye to the presense of the former. A lot on the board have earned the benefit of the doubt fom me over the years so I step back and leave the threads without a great fuss most (but not all) of the time. And I have to think twice about whether I really want to step in when things get discussed because I know I need the aforementioned asbestos underwear if I bother to weigh in on any matter that is anything but a full endorsement of all things soccer involving Toronto.

Finally Rudi, got no problems with you generally, but when you suggest that no one from Toronto has ever attacked another Canadian city while Toronto has been slagged by people from outside of Toronto, then there is again a serious disconnect occuring. Yes, there have been many asinine attacks on Toronto (as well as reasonable observations supported by facts that have been labeled as attacks). But equally, the same is true of many posters from Toronto who have savaged Edmonton, Vancouver and Montreal (as well as reasonable observations supported by facts). That you would think that this has not occured lends credence to some Jeffrey's assertions about a developing 'group think'. I don't think it is a deliberate strategy as Jeffrey seems to be saying, but to dismiss it out of hand is a mistake. Because it is occuring, IMO. de Tocqueville's observations on the tryanny of the majority has its applications here.

Food for thought. Think on it or flame on as you will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

Just a couple of things.

First, I do hope that the MLS supporters can be less sectarian and less arrogant and try to open up, as the way they are going the group will be a lot smaller than what they'd be proud of due to their haughty attitude with anyone remotely critical or cynical of their procedures.

Second, I have been on these boards for maybe six years now, think that was just after our scoreless draw to Mexico in Toronto in the last HEX. Geez, without looking it up I am confused, but i think it was Nov 15 1999. In that time the demographics definitely have changed. In the past there was a much greater representation from the West, and quite a few from Vancouver, some interesting voices from places like London and Ottawa, a few but very gracious posters from Montreal (generally the calmest bunch), not too many from further east, as now. This mix is being seriously reduced not only because the Impact people have found their own place, because some Vancouver supporters found theirs too, because the Alberta teams have gone belly up. I think it is somewhat due to some attitudes coming out of TO and environs, sorry to say it. And with the excessive opinions that have emerged in related to MLS Toronto, the ridiculous excess of threads and posts in the lead up in September-October, and a particular vision of it all to boot that is radically intolerant with disagreement or disbelief; at least that is how I see it.

The demographics are not just regional though. Many other older posters with families and related committments -like a ton of interesting press people and active types in soccer organizations- here haved also backed down before the snarky harping of the intolerant juniors. I have got personal messages from a few of them. For example from decent Voyageurs who are rather bothered about the Fernandes case, instead of posting publicly, as they know what kind of **** some of the CSA-panderers will send flying their way. Certain attitudes here are silencing Voyaguers, believe me you. Ou loss I'd say, the board is much less heterogenous and plural now than 3-4 years ago.

Thanks to this same deplorable behaviour by the U-section drinking section for winning the silence of Luis, one of the most endearing and unique posters here for a long time, and a passionate soccer follower, simply because he did not join in the sectarian group I am speaking of (and of course he existed guys, I remember specific details he posted about himself over the years, but we won't go into that). You guys went on and on about how he did not exist, how he did not have validity since he did not go to Lynx games, how he was a farce since he did not show up at your meetings. In this particular issue you behaved like pack animals, and the prey has finally fallen. If you were the youth division of some totalitarian regime you'd have been promoted for that.

And I just want to reiterate I never was against MLS in Canada, never thought a Canadian league could work, also have hoped that the Lynx could do better and give our players a better club experience, believed the frustration of their supporters here with the organization, am in favour of MLS in Toronto, and the stadium there with all the government investment and CSA effort involved, and the final of the WYC there. I don't think that those gloating about those things now and lording them over everyone else on this board have been even half as gracious to the rest of us as most of us have been to them.

Final comment on Krammerhead. We sided on tons of issues for years and laughed together about many things (we had a field day with minorsoccer/CPSL west), often going way off topic bantering about North Vancouver trivia. Perhaps you were not here then Grizzly, but I know what i am talking about. I even personally mailed him at BS, if I recall correctly, to encourage him to return after he first left out of frustration a few years ago. I know a few personal details about him that only the oldtimers here might remember. So you are making things up there I think.

Another day I will detail for you the better fights I have had on this board over six years of posting. I count maybe 6-7 really good ones (this not being one of them, at least not yet).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Thanks to this same deplorable behaviour by the U-section drinking section for winning the silence of Luis, one of the most endearing and unique posters here for a long time, and a passionate soccer follower, simply because he did not join in the sectarian group I am speaking of (and of course he existed guys, I remember specific details he posted about himself over the years, but we won't go into that). You guys went on and on about how he did not exist, how he did not have validity since he did not go to Lynx games, how he was a farce since he did not show up at your meetings. In this particular issue you behaved like pack animals, and the prey has finally fallen. If you were the youth division of some totalitarian regime you'd have been promoted for that.

Just to comment on this, Luis twice said he was going to be at the meetings, yet never showed (using an INCREDIBLY lame excuse the firs time around, and explicitly saying that he would be there the second time around, to make up for missing the first).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Finally Rudi, got no problems with you generally, but when you suggest that no one from Toronto has ever attacked another Canadian city while Toronto has been slagged by people from outside of Toronto, then there is again a serious disconnect occuring. Yes, there have been many asinine attacks on Toronto (as well as reasonable observations supported by facts that have been labeled as attacks). But equally, the same is true of many posters from Toronto who have savaged Edmonton, Vancouver and Montreal (as well as reasonable observations supported by facts). That you would think that this has not occured lends credence to some Jeffrey's assertions about a developing 'group think'. I don't think it is a deliberate strategy as Jeffrey seems to be saying, but to dismiss it out of hand is a mistake. Because it is occuring, IMO. de Tocqueville's observations on the tryanny of the majority has its applications here.

You're right Gordon, there have been Toronto posters who have attacked other places, but, using your own terminology, those are the 'kooks'. I tend to not include them in any discussion about 'real' board issues.

But tell me you haven't noticed that it has become the 'in thing' amongst a lrage number of non-Toronto posters to jump on the Toronto bashing bandwagon, including many whom I at one time considered to be 'normal' posters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

Just to comment on this, Luis twice said he was going to be at the meetings, yet never showed (using an INCREDIBLY lame excuse the firs time around, and explicitly saying that he would be there the second time around, to make up for missing the first).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Why don't you just respond to the comments I made and leave it at that, if you have anything to say. Having an agenda or having an opinion or even harping on a theme is typical, I would say, of most people on this board. So why do you point to me?

Look Grizzly, even after we spoke reasonably here about my frustrations with Fernandes and I even admitted my line about a certain cultural bias could have had some weaknesses (at least you reasonably tried to point them out, which I appreciated), you still have come on here and used that against me in completely unrelated posts. After the fact. I did not call you on it, I left it, but it was a bit backstabbing on your part. I mean, when someone backs off a bit on this board and admits another might have some validity in their arguments, the idea is usually to give them some margin. You have not done that with me. Your very post proves my opinion, as it has nothing to do with my argument: the supposed real, cool, authentic supporter groups for the Canadian clubs that have strutted their stuff on these boards are often full of it, apart from being essentially divisive or sectarian types who will live off a certain disdain for other soccer fans.

I am not sure you are one of them.

In any case, since there is a bunch of people you seem to support who will end up dominating the Voyageurs entirely if we let them -just as they want to dominate the future of supporter groups for the TO MLS team, which I think they won't for reasons related to MLSE- it is better for me for now not to jump on the normative, yeah-saying bandwagon and take these rabble-rousing angles. I think if these guys have their way they will kill Voyageurs in the name of their own closed mindsets and social clique. And drive off many from outside TO, as they have already done by letting this board be dominated by Lynx BS in a country where Impact and Whitecaps have been far more significant teams with much greater public support.

So sure, me digging away like this is a rhetorical device, just like heckling might be, or sarcasm, or irony, or pontificating. We are just fans after all, I don't know why guys have to be so big-headed about how and where and to who things should be said on a frigging fan-forum.

Trust me, Grizzly, if you guys think that the little research started by an MLSE guy, on his own admission without being asked to do so by his boss, is a serious thread, you are tremendously naive. The guy is either very young and inexperience; or, after meeting a few of the guys here, decided that we were rather childish and immature and came on here accordingly; or just as well he is trying to get brownie points with his boss; or is doing "field research" for a Marketing MA, which might explain why he is so flexible, cool, and obliging, even to everyone's nemesis G-Man .

Anyone who has even suggested that the guy is a goof, or not really from MLSE (which I am sure he is), or has absolutely minimal power to influence anything, has been drowned out by the cheerleaders and wannabees who actually think they are mature in taking him seriously. That deserves at least a bit of cynicism and the odd destroyer post, which is the only way I have to keep from puking at the behaviour of some of the other supposedly intelligent types on these boards.

You'll get used to it, I assure you. When I studied classical guitar I played Sor and Villalobos and thought them sweet, and was first taken aback by Leo Brouwer: that was musical dissidence. But now I listen to Derek Bailey and other free improvisers, and Brouwer does not seem so radical anymore.

Little change of subject yet I am curious.I at one time was very close to one of Canada's greatest classical guitarist Gordon O'Brien.

He played solo with the Toronto Symphony Orchestra at the age of 11.So I assume you must know him. I just wonder if you know what happened to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by john tv

Little change of subject yet I am curious.I at one time was very close to one of Canada's greatest classical guitarist Gordon O'Brien.

He played solo with the Toronto Symphony Orchestra at the age of 11.So I assume you must know him. I just wonder if you know what happened to him.

John, you are funny. Ask Grizzly, on the Off Topic board there is a thread on his classical guitar web: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8668

Canada has had a few top guitarists by the way, I would not say that you can come right out that easily and call one or the other the "greatest", it is like with soccer players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well so much for my attempt to keep this thread on-topic. Rather than to reply quoting any specific post I'll mentioned a few points generally, if I may:

Given the accusations that are being levelled this way I think it is worth noting that a lot of Toronto-area posters & readers over the years have stopped posting and/or reading respectively because of what they perceive to be an anti-Toronto bias in a lot of posters and got sick of reading it so they left. Again, it's often not the reasonable posters that bother people, its the "kook" crowd as others have called it. However, I imagine the real reason why people have left is the poor performance of the national team in games that matter. If people have something exciting to post about they will do so.

I must admit I find it difficult to appreciate why someone wouldn't post for fear that a lot of peoople won't agree with them. So people disagree, so what? Nevertheless if people have posted less because they feel they aren't in the majority on a certain point of view, I hope they will reconsider. In my experience there is rarely a majority viewpoint on any discussion board, that's what makes for a discussion. I have yet to see a discussion board where everyone doesn't do anything except simply hold hands and sing "We are the World". If people become personally abusive, that's where both the moderators and hopefuly even the non-moderators will step in to denounce such conduct.

The suggestion, however, that this board is one giant pro-CSA cheering section is utterly laughable - we have the reputation for being the exact opposite, just ask the good folks at World Talk Radio who interviewed one of our own members live on the radio to ask why we are so harsh on the CSA.

On to some of Jeffrey's latest wild accusations - interms of the "ridiculous number" of Toronto-specific posts, as Jeffrey describes it, there is no grand conspiracy here once again. People post about topics that interest them, on any internet discussion board. The fact that there has been a lot of positive activity in the Toronto area (and unfortunatey not a whole lot else to excited about elsewhere) is what has caused a lot of posts to happen on the Toronto situation. And given that there are a lot of people in Toronto, there are bound to be a lot of Toronto-area posters on a Canada-only board. And a lot of those threads were started by people like Robert who aren't even from Toronto but Vancouver who's motivation seem to be to just insult Kevan Pipe. Outside of Robert's dubious motivations, there was nothing sinister about the amount of Toronto threads leading up to the stadium announcement.

Re: Luis, nobody from this area has ever met him in the over 6 years I've been on this board, despite the numerous opportunities, far more than two. That's one reason why nobody thinks he actually exists (and Jeffrey, anybody can create an internet character & post details about themselves on boards, I've seen it happen at 8 times on various boards, including this one). Nobody hates or despise him because of this, but the fact that he hasn't shown up to anything (even when claiming he would at times) causes him to be the butt-end of a few jokes - hardly surprising. Using this as an excuse to compare the posters on this board (and you've lumped me into this category, for what reason I don't know since I have never "gone after" Luis in over 6 years of being here) to a fascist totalitarian regime is ridiculous and would be grossly offensive to these people if the people reading such comments weren't so busy laughing.

I'm probably tempting fate by posting this but I rather suspect "Luis"'s silence in recent times is because the poster pretending to be Luis has decided the game is up - in previous years people would hurl abuse at Luis & he would respond by replying in kind (or vice versa) rather than disappear quietly. And you Jeffrey made a very humorous but still chastising post making fun of Luis's inability to make a meeting - does that mean you are a member of the Voyaguers Facist Club of Canada along with the rest of us? At the very least it makes you a hypocrite on this point.

Finally, while I can happily take personal insults of the likes of the several thousand that have seemingly come my way recently, I am less tolerant of people personally insulting other people, especially those that I know personally. The suggesting that I seek the approval of the CSA with my posts is laughable enough as it is, but the comment that I have a whole bunch of "weak-willed" followers is fairly insulting to other posters from the group. It suggests they are not only weak-willed, but not intelligent enough to think for themselves and follow me blindly, a suggestion which frankly, is a load of crap - both on the issue of their alleged lack of intelligence and the suggestion that these people "follow" me to begin with. I guess, going by your assertion that the Toronto Ultras are fascists who are following me, that puts me in the position of the fascist dictator. Which is a shame, as it means I got to the top without performing a military coup, and I always wanted one of those.

Its a rather bizarre notion - "let's improve the quality of the posts on the board by personally insulting as many people as possible and pointing as many fingers as possible". Yet that seems to be the motivation of some of these posts. And if it isn't, what exactly are people stirring the pot here trying to achieve?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...