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2007 WYC Final in Toronto


Elias

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Doyle is a guy who didn't even support soccer in Edmonton by going to USL games when they had a team. I really doubt his butt would be in the seats of a U-20 World Cup final either although he would certainly fill the board with his excuses of work, ticket price, etc. I fully agree with Richard's post that we should do what we can to make this the best tournament possible. Personally I would go to any game in my city but I would only travel to see Canada. I would not travel to see the final but I would travel to see a Canada game. I would choose a ticket to a Canada match over one for the final. My point being that in my opinion and probably that of most Canadians, Edmonton looks like it is getting two of the three most attractive matches. However, if they keep complaining like they are and threatening not to give full effort they will lose them and probably to Ottawa. So keep bitching maybe I will get to see a few more matches live than I thought.

Once again, I'm proven how people choose to ignore the facts and decide to slander.

Why don't you go great off you little piece of worthless ****.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Once again, I'm proven how people choose to ignore the facts and decide to slander.

Why don't you go great off you little piece of worthless ****.

Facts

By your own admission you did not attend the Aviators home opener.

By your own admission you did not even attend an Aviators game until late in the season when they were already finished as a franchise.

The average person who does not support Canadian or Edmonton soccer by actually attending games (even if they could not do so for legitmate reasons as you claim) would be somewhat circumspect in writing opinions about what moves should be made by organizations concerned about fans who actually attend games.

Calling people who disagree with you idiots or calling me names is not going to bother me or anyone else on the board nor bring anyone over to your viewpoint. Why do you even bother to post here if you think we are all such idiots?

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As I indicated earlier, I too am disappointed by the CSA's decision but not particularly surprised.

Unfortunately none of us know what was actually said to any of the cities concerning who was promised what and when. Local reports have suggested a number of things. Mr. Sharpe to his credit...at least from the quote in Terry Jones' article appears to have put enought "weasel words" and provisos into his statement so as to be less than a "promise".

From the minute the CSA began talking about a "national" stadium in Toronto and the discussion of MLSE and MLS came up and it appeared that Mr. Pipe was becoming increasingly "desperate" to get a stadium at all,I expected that Toronto would be awarded the final.

Good luck to Toronto. I hope they do well and that all of the teams are supported well and that this becomes a success artistically and financially. Goodness knows our teams need the support that a financially successful tournament "may" bring.

I think what offends a number of folks out here is/was Mr. Pipe's rather glib explanation for the rationale,i.e. makes more financial reason to host the final in Toronto because they have not had the same degree of success in smaller population centres [read Edmonton] whereas Toronto has had multiple multi-million dollar pay days recently.

It struck me as more than a tad condescending. What soccer events was he talking about? Toronto is a "World Class City"...doesn't Godfrey tell us that whenever he brings up the NFL...we all know that.

Then to decry and diminish the success of the U-19 tournament [without which I expect we would not even being talking about this championship being held in Canada] by commenting that was merely a tournament to "put bottoms in seats" was particularly galling, indeed offensive.

I certainly paid substantially more that $5.00 you "officious, little bureaucratic pri#$". What did you pay you underperforming jerk?.ooops, promised myself not to get personal [grin].

I do not think that there would have been any impetus to Canada's application for the 2007 Championship were it not for the way this city supported the U-19 Female tourney. It opened a lot of eyes to the potential success this type of tournament could have in Canada.

Do I think that Edmonton would have in excess of 20,000 fans for a final regardless of the participants. No question!. 50 to 60,000 uncertain. However, if you give a local body the budget and support there is no question that it would be a financial success.

As other posters from this area have already pointed out Edmonton has a proven "track record" of doing very well when it comes to getting involved in an "event". The city and province were behind the proposal and were prepared to financially back up the offer. Perhaps, MLSE is too. The CSA has not commented.

I do not expect anyone from outside of the region to understand this. You have to live here and have experienced the U-19 event, the World Track and Field Championships, the Masters Games and the road racing events to understand that events like this work albeit in a comparitively smaller population centre.

Yes, you can take shots at recent WCQ attendances but the CSA needs to shoulder a lot of the blame for their lack of involvement. To be fair, I do not recollect the Honduras match. Was that the one we met at Sherlock Holmes afterwards? If so, I have good reason to "erase it from my memory bank" [smile]. The CSA is a standing joke in this city. No advertising budget. Show up, get a few ales at the pub and fly back.

Grizzly, with regard to the the stadium issue. I think the Eskimos are scheduled to play at home on June 24th, July 7th and July 20th. The latter game might have presented some difficulty if the weather was particularly bad. Not knowing...as I expect is the case for all of us...the schedule apart from the July 1st and July 22nd closing matches, I am not sure that this would have presented an insurmountable obstacle for the organizers and the CFL.

Obviously, that is not a problem for the proposed stadium in TO given that the Argos are going to play at Skydome...apart from the fact that the stadium is not build and as for Ottawa's prospects in Frank Clair...well with the "Glieberguys", less said the better...the condition of the field turf is the least of Ottawa football...both versions...fans.

I hope I am wrong but the atmosphere in this city is positively "toxic" toward the CSA, NOT let me EMPHASIZE toward the Canadian team, the CSA.

I do not forsee a turn out of any size for the apparent match against Brazil on the May long week-end. Yes, I think Terry Jones was a tad "over the top" in his commentary but soccer has lost a good "friend" and a source of needed publicity...at least locally.

Oh well, this all too bad as the sport in this country needs more support than what it is currently getting.

However, I am a realist. I do not expect to see many games in Edmonton once the TO stadium is built.

To a certain degree I hope I am wrong but I am not sure that this matter is completely at an end. I will be more confident when I see a finished stadium in TO and not an impending "train wreck" at the end of the tunnel given the CSA's conduct to date.

I also would prefer to see Canada play wherever is the most strategically advantageous to their efforts...which now appears to be Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto given that TO has the opening game rather than out here merely in an effort to appease local concerns. If you can sell 20,000 seats to unknown finalists the populous east should be able to fill their stadia for Canada, n'est-ce pas?

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well by that token then all of the matches mentioned would be comparing apples to oranges as they are all different to what we are about to get. The U19 final might be the closest comparator in theory, except when you factor in the bit about the ticket prices in turns it into a different fruit altogether IMO.

the notorious durian fruit? [xx(]

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quote:Originally posted by morrison

Anyone remember the world media laughing at "Deadmonton" at the world athletics Championships in 2001?

You mean the British reporter who apoligzed or what was supposed to be a satirical comment. The only worl media that complained was the British media that distanced themselves from the comments.

We got the last laugh when London couldn't get it's **** together for 2005 and lost their right to host.

quote:Originally posted by morrison

Face it, Canada would not have gotten the tournament without Toronto.

There you guy. Taking credit for other people's work.

I'm glad the Conservatives didn't elect an MP from Toronto. They certainly wouldn't want your filth.

You guys couldn't host a dinner party on your own without the rest of Canada helping.

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quote:Originally posted by morrison

Anyone remember the world media laughing at "Deadmonton" at the world athletics Championships in 2001?

Face it, Canada would not have gotten the tournament without Toronto.

not totally sure. Amongst Canada's cities, I would pick Montreal and Vancouver as far more interesting than Toronto and really, most people outside of Canada and NOrth America, can't name any Canadian cities. Maybe some Atlas gurus would know about Ottawa as the capital city and the odd occasional one would know something about Van or TO or Montreal, but definitely not enough to give it a whole tournament because of TO. The tournament was given because of Canada and because it was probably time for a CONCACAF team.

As for deadmonton comment, the guy who started it was some british journalist. I would say at the time, he had a point. Downtown Edmonton where he was staying, had just been decimated by the cuts in provincial government and the city was just beginning to wake up from the impacts of that and Calgary stealing a few of its companies as well and some tough times in the '90s. Today, it has added well over 150,000 people since then, has gone over the 1 million mark and its downtown is slowly coming together. It has a much more pro-active mayor in terms of attracting and maintaining businesses and is also feeling the impacts of the oil/gas boom. The problem was also that cities like Athens and Paris or Seville had hosted the event before and really, I am not sure there are many Canadian cities who can compete with those.

Nevertheless, the tourney made money and in a country that doesn't care about Track & field, drew an average crowd of 40000/day.

I don't agree with the bashings and east/west stuff being thrown around, but I feel somewhat screwed by the CSA, considering they used the 2002 Edmonton U-19 as their selling point and then essentially, screwed Edmonton over.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Once again, I'm proven how people choose to ignore the facts and decide to slander.

Why don't you go great off you little piece of worthless ****.

I take a weekend off from posting and come back to see that DoyleG is in his best BigSoccer form.

Awesome how he talks about slander and then immediately proceeds to hurl profanities.

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quote:Originally posted by Reza

not totally sure. Amongst Canada's cities, I would pick Montreal and Vancouver as far more interesting than Toronto and really, most people outside of Canada and NOrth America, can't name any Canadian cities. Maybe some Atlas gurus would know about Ottawa as the capital city and the odd occasional one would know something about Van or TO or Montreal, but definitely not enough to give it a whole tournament because of TO. The tournament was given because of Canada and because it was probably time for a CONCACAF team.

I have to many different countries ranging from small towns in provincial Russia to the Tunesian desert and don't find this statement true at all. In fact, most Europeans have a better knowledge of our cities and geography than US Americans. Toronto is known everywhere and many people think it is the capital. It is far better known than any other city. My estimate of best known cities by foreigners is:

1. Toronto

2. Vancouver

3. Montreal

4. Ottawa

5. Calgary (because of the Olympics)

6. Quebec City

7. Halifax

The only time I have met people in foreign countries who knew Edmonton was when they were hockey or Wayne Gretzky fans.

I am not saying this is the only reason to give Toronto the tournament but if you think that either 1. Toronto is not well known internationally and/or 2. Edmonton is well known internationally, you are deluding yourself.

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quote:Originally posted by bmac

I think what offends a number of folks out here is/was Mr. Pipe's rather glib explanation for the rationale,i.e. makes more financial reason to host the final in Toronto because they have not had the same degree of success in smaller population centres [read Edmonton] whereas Toronto has had multiple multi-million dollar pay days recently.

Yes, you can take shots at recent WCQ attendances but the CSA needs to shoulder a lot of the blame for their lack of involvement. To be fair, I do not recollect the Honduras match. Was that the one we met at Sherlock Holmes afterwards? If so, I have good reason to "erase it from my memory bank" [smile]. The CSA is a standing joke in this city. No advertising budget. Show up, get a few ales at the pub and fly back.

I have noticed on several occasions that there have been references to poor work on the part of the CSA from a promotional standpoint as reasons for disappointing attendances. But I am still at a loss to understand what one would expect the national association to have done from an adverstizing standpoint?

The local press coverage for that game was very good and there is nothing that I can think of that the CSA can do to substitute for good press coverage. I picked a newspaper every day that I was there ( ie.: the day before the game, the day of the game, and the day after the game). I followed as closely as I could the sportscasts in local TV media. All in all I found there to be alot stories and very good coverage. Lots of interviews, game notes, discussions, editorials etc etc. Terrific stuff! I thought. even the kind of editorials written by the higher profile writers. Also, the coverage was not tucked away in the back pages or at the end of the sportscast. Nope even the local TV outlets had video footage consisting of interviews, scrimmages, game footage, etc etc.

You cant buy that kind of publicity. I don't know how much better you can do. Or what the CSA could have done that was better. the media did as good of a promotion job as you can get.... I've have never seen that anywhere else in canada that level of exposure for a game involving our MNT.

Thats why I am curious to know what people think the CSA should have specifically done?

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I have noticed on several occasions that there have been references to poor work on the part of the CSA from a promotional standpoint as reasons for disappointing attendances. But I am still at a loss to understand what one would expect the national association to have done?

The local press coverage for that game was very good and there is nothing that I can think of that the CSA can do to substitute for good press coverage. I picked a newspaper every day that I was there ( ie.: the day before the game, the day of the game, and the day after the game). I followed as closely as I could the sportscasts in local TV media. All in all I found there to be alot stories and very good coverage. Lots of interviews, game notes, discussions, editorials etc etc. Terrific stuff! I thought. even the kind of editorials written by the higher profile writers. Also, the coverage was not tucked away in the back pages or at the end of the sportscast. Nope even the local TV outlets had video footage consisting of interviews, scrimmages, game footage, etc etc.

You cant buy that kind of publicity. I don't know how much better you can do. Or what the CSA could have done that was better. the media did as good of a promotion job as you can get.... I've have never seen that anywhere else in canada that level of exposure for a game involving our MNT.

Thats why I am curious to know what people think the CSA should have specifically done?

You really think people were going to attend a WCQ game over a Canada-Russia hockey game going on at the same time?

Any sane person would've started the game in the afternoon, thus allowing fans the opprotunity to watch Canada-Honduras and then get home in time for Canada-Russia hockey. Instead, the CSA decided to go straight in competition with hockey and lost bigtime in both fans at the stadium and in a TV audience.

Sad too see you guys still defending the sack of **** that is the CSA.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

By your own admission you did not attend the Aviators home opener.

Wrong.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8337&SearchTerms=Aviators,home,opener

quote:Originally posted by GrizzlyBy your own admission you did not even attend an Aviators game until late in the season when they were already finished as a franchise.

if you even bothered to read the posts, I worked at night and the games were at night. But don't let facts get in the way of your little rant.

I'll be waiting for your apology.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Wrong.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8337&SearchTerms=Aviators,home,opener

if you even bothered to read the posts, I worked at night and the games were at night. But don't let facts get in the way of your little rant.

I'll be waiting for your apology.

You will be waiting a long time then. I heard all your excuses the first time and no not every game was at night and they were on a wide variety of days of the week. Doesn't sound like you tried very hard. But even assuming that you had legitimate reasons to miss the games one would think that this would cause you to temper your opinions in favour of those who actually do attend games. If you want credibility you have to attend matches.

You claimed in November 2005 that you attended the home opener. However in 2004 you posted (http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5332&whichpage=3)

quote:I wasn't even able to attend games at all until the owners

threw in the towel.

Do you just post whatever helps you in your current argument? Did you think we all forgot the earlier post? Do we all get an apology for you lying on the forum?

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Thats why I am curious to know what people think the CSA should have specifically done?

Hate interrupting a topic as it crashs and burns but what the Hell? Why not?

Long answer

That is a tough question. Once the venue was decided you'd think it would have been up to the organizing commity to handle all the advertising and what-not. How much to spend, on what, when and where. But I guess that would depend on how venue hosting was awarded, what hosting entaled and how the profit/losses are split up at the end of the day. All somethings we don't know.

I'd have thought the CSA would be very sensative about ensuring that the WCQ matchs were successful. And by that I don't necessarily mean with on-field results. I mean by putting bums in seats and getting the resulting media attention that that brings everything else not withstanding. Surely by then the CSA had learned how positive their product looked when everybody noticed that people actually care enough about this funny old game to show up for international matchs. Again, notwithstanding the on field results.

So all that being said, and given that the CSA must know who they're dealing with in this country and what they're capable of, I'd have thought the CSA would have taken on an advertising responsability for all the WCQ matchs. Say what you want about local media coverage, and I agree with everything you've mentioned, but there is no replacement for consistant and well directed advertising. For weeks before the match. Not a couple of days.

So the long and short(answer) is no local organizing commity has the where with all to put out any pre-match advertising campain which would matter. The CSA may claim to be a pauper but it's their product and they're far better equiped, funded and connected to take on the responsability and so they should.

Would $100K in advertising have put 10,000 more bums in the seats? We'll never know. But if it did you can bet the match would have turned a profit and looked 20x better than it did.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Actually, I think that we would not have earned the right to host this event without the predominant involvement of Toronto. I think FIFA expects the final to be played in the country's most populated urban area.

I'll repeat, why even bother with a bid process then? if this supposition is true, it is the perfect out for the CSA. Why go into a bid process for the Final and then throw out a bunch of condescending BS if a simple, 'FIFA expects/demands it in Toronto' will suffice?

This whole FIFA and Toronto thing has come to be taken as a given even though the CSA consistently fails to use it as a reason to get out of tight jams and controversial decisions. This surprises me as logic dictates that if then-20 WC was dependent upon a stadium in Toronto and the Final was FIFA mandated for Toronto then the CSA might just come out and say so at some point. But since they haven't, I feel pretty comfortable that the "FIFA demands it" are without merit. Simply because there is no reason to hide FIFAs 'conditions'.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I'll repeat, why even bother with a bid process then? if this supposition is true, it is the perfect out for the CSA. Why go into a bid process for the Final and then throw out a bunch of condescending BS if a simple, 'FIFA expects/demands it in Toronto' will suffice?

This whole FIFA and Toronto thing has come to be taken as a given even though the CSA consistently fails to use it as a reason to get out of tight jams and controversial decisions. This surprises me as logic dictates that if then-20 WC was dependent upon a stadium in Toronto and the Final was FIFA mandated for Toronto then the CSA might just come out and say so at some point. But since they haven't, I feel pretty comfortable that the "FIFA demands it" are without merit. Simply because there is no reason to hide FIFAs 'conditions'.

Yes, in retrospect the bid process was very likely just for optics. It could be because they needed something like a prèss conference in order to get the attention of Ottawa given the fact that there is a new incoming government and may have wanted to ensure that the process to approve the funding stays high on the agenda. What better way than a press conference.

If my memory is correct, Jack Warner may have said it himself about a year ago. “There will be no U 20 WC in Canada without a stadium in Toronto” is what I recall him saying. With that in mind, is there any doubt that they would envisioned that the key matches would be held in Toronto. Warner did not set those stringent conditions for any of the other sites in Canada.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

You claimed in November 2005 that you attended the home opener. However in 2004 you posted (http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5332&whichpage=3)

Do you just post whatever helps you in your current argument? Did you think we all forgot the earlier post? Do we all get an apology for you lying on the forum?[/size=2]

Image removed - too large

SEE-CYDE!

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Holy crap!

In that same thread that Grizzly trudged up to dispell Doyle's monthly rant, there's a post from G-Man which actually has positive things to say about MLS, going so far as to say that he'll make 3-4 trips to toronto see the team play.

Don't believe me? Check it out:

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Pro soccer is a bussiness first. Those that treat it as anything else will fail. If Toronto gets an MLS team, then the rest of the market will have to adjust. It's called democracy.

And thanks to Doyle, we get all the excuses all over again. Oh it was the media, the city, the stadium and the weather. Try this one. Doyle couldn't be bother to get to a game until the team foled and was run by the league. How many more "fans" are like doyle? In Edmonton it would seem many.

I went to a bunch of Ottawa Fury W-league games last year. Am I a big women's soccer fan? not really. I went to games cause I'ma soccer fan. I'll probably go to as many PDL games as I can this year. But do I think that 8 to 10000 people will show up? or even 1000? No.

Ottawa, even with an A-league team would be lucky to get a 1500 average. I'm a realist.

There are too many Doyles in Ottawa. "Sure I'd love a team" they'll say then not buy a ticket- and when it fails, they'll blame the media, the stadium, the weather, the owners.

So if you claim to want something and you believe in it. You get to the games. You'll even buy season tickets- to put your money where your mouth is, even if you don't go to them.

If Toronto got an MLS team, I'd make 3-4 trips to Toronto to see teams like the L.A or San Jose play.

So will you be sitting in the supporters section with the rest of us, G-Man? :D

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<mod>Ok first off let's stop the personal attacks floating around here by DoyleG, morrison, Domi Rulezz, et al. Let's keep it on topic</mod>

Now, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed with Terry Jones' article. As Gian-Luca pointed out so well, he really loses credibility in his argument by trying to tie Edmonton's support of the Canadian team into support for 2 (likely) foreign teams in the final... especially when he says "whoop de do" about getting most of Canada's group matches (which could very well be ALL of Canada's matches). However, for those that might not know.. Jones often goes off the deep end in articles - laying blame with broad strokes as he sees fit.

Part of me cringes that he's speading negative 'vibes' out to the unwashed masses. It's all fine and dandy for us to debate this internally, but I know in the end we'll all support our boys no matter what. Jones' tag line at the end "maybe we'll show'em up by filling the place" does seem almost tacked on at the end. Who knows though... no press is bad press.

I'm also glad to see Reza and bmac providing some more sane Edmonton views here too. For me, even as an Edmontonian, this has nothing to do with regionalism. In my view the WYC 2007 wouldn't have come to Canada if not for 3 main facotrs:

1) The Women's U-19 Championships

2) The Toronto Stadium

3) The Fact that the Championship hasn't been in CONCACAF since Mexico (1983?)

It's silly do discredit the hard work that went in to making the U-19 WWC a success. Did it help that Canada went on a run to the final? Absolutely, but even with out that I'm sure FIFA would've considered the tourney a success. This played a huge part in making FIFA see we could pull off an even bigger tournament.

By the same token, a tournament like this without Toronto playing a major role just wouldn't have happened. Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and the one EVERYONE knows.

The third point is obviously just that it was good timing. No matter how well we did at the U-19's or if Toronto had 3 stadiums, none of that would've mattered if the USA had just hosted this tourney in 2005.

What bothers me most is the snub by the CSA towards Edmonton in awarding a high profile match. I've long thought that the sign outside Commonwealth should've read "Canada's National Soccer Stadium - At least until something.. ANYTHING else comes along". The other thing is the CSA's "scientifical" explanation about the economics of playing the final in a 20,000 seater vs. a 60,000 seater. You simply cannot convince me that it's better to charge more to fewer fans than it would be to offer reasonable prices and get way more fans (at least not in this case). For an "event" like this, building off the success of the U-19 games (and the Grand Prix, the World Masters, etc..) you could easily get over 50,000 out to a final in Edmonton.

I can, however, buy the argument that the new stadium in Toronto needs to be showcased. That's how these things work (there's a reason that the stadium in Edmonton is called "Commonwealth"). However there are two 'high profile' matches in every tourney, and to award both to Toronto is a bit much. (Can anyone name a major tourney where the final was played in the same place as the opening match?)

As others have pointed out, having our boys fly across the country puts them at a disadvantage. To me it makes much more sense to award Edmonton the opening match (as a 'reward') and keep the Canadian team in one spot. To be honest I wouldn't even mind if that 'spot' was in Vancouver or Montreal as long as it was the best of our lads. Canada should play it's matches from one homebase regardless, so there's no way to let everyone host our boys anyway.

For a final comment, I think it's interesting that for once Toronto's 'ethnic' support for teams is being presented as a positive. How nice is it that both Nigeria and Italy in the final will both feel warm and fuzzy with support.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by morrison

Anyone remember the world media laughing at "Deadmonton" at the world athletics Championships in 2001?

Face it, Canada would not have gotten the tournament without Toronto.

You are totally wrong, and that is pretty poor to bring up such an argument. The world media I heard from Spain judged the event, which was top quality. And evaluated the track, the organization, the records set, the efficiency of the officials. Edmonton is a respected city in sport on the basis of that event, as is Canada in general, a country everyone knows is perfectly reliable -though a bit lacking in pzazz and added values like design- organizing events.

The other thing is if you want the press to be excited about non-descript cities, a category the vast majority of urban centres in North America fall into, let's face it. Atlanta and Toronto are just bigger versions of your Edmontons, but if anyone thinks that TO is considered hip or exciting or an example of planning quality you are quite mistaken. It is a planning mediocrity and a general boring urban space.

I would suggest that Ottawa is better known than most realize, since it is the national capital. And that after that cities that have held big world events are also better known that most think, Calgary in there for the Olympics, Edmonton for the World Athletics. This is normal, and is the grounding upon which you build bids for other sporting events.

In the sporting world TO is known for sustaining the Raptors and Jays as well. But noone is going to think that you have to have the final there because of the intrinsic quality of the city.

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