Developing elite hockey and soccer players

[analyst]

Do the CSA and CHA approach player development the same way.

During the Sweeden-Finland junior hockey game yesterday, a message from the CHA was broadcast at GM Place in Vancouver. The CHA was advertising its player testing program - it described the tests as simple, and coaches in one city could see how his her players are doing at certain skills compared to players in other provinces. That obviously means standardized tests.

Does the CSA have a similar program? I'm not aware of one from the CSA, what about other people?

[Daniel]

Matrixball ®!

csd

[Free kick]

Well I am not familair with the inner working and politics of the game from an administrative standpoint and amongst various associations. But one thing that is clear to me about hockey in Canada versus soccer is that ( from a distance ) it would appear the national association in Hockey ( ie.: Hockey Canada) has a greater grasp and figures more prominantly in what happens from a development standpoint. Whereas, you get a sense that in soccer its the provincial associations who really rule the roost. Has anyone ever heard of Hockey Ontario? or what about Hockey Newfoundland? That might be the probelm for soccer in canada in that is hard to set any kind of agenda if you have to get buy in from ten associations. Compounding this problem is the fact that these associations are very very diverse in shear numbers.

Take for example that U17 tournament thats going on right now in Saskatchewan. Notice that in that event, unlike the CSA's national championships, you have teams representing regions rather than provinces. Doesn't that make more sense in order to ensure that a talented kid plays in the right environment in terms of competitiveness?

I'll bet that you could never set up that kind of format for a national tournament in soccer because every assocation from the tinest province would be looking out for number one to preserve their fiefdom. So what happens if you happen to be a talented athlete from one of these small provinces? you would be forced to play along side some inferior talent because your province doesn't have the numbers. Hows is that going to make you standout? Or how is it going to help the talented kid playeing from one of the bigger provinces wwhen playing aaginst province X and running up the score to 6-0.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Well I am not familair with the inner working and politics of the game from an administrative standpoint and amongst various associations. But one thing that is clear to me about hockey in Canada versus soccer is that ( from a distance ) it would appear the national association in Hockey ( ie.: Hockey Canada) has a greater grasp and figures more prominantly in what happens from a development standpoint. Whereas, you get a sense that in soccer its the provincial associations who really rule the roost. Has anyone ever heard of Hockey Ontario? or what about Hockey Newfoundland? That might be the probelm for soccer in canada in that is hard to set any kind of agenda if you have to get buy in from ten associations. Compounding this problem is the fact that these associations are very very diverse in shear numbers.

Take for example that U17 tournament thats going on right now in Saskatchewan. Notice that in that event, unlike the CSA's national championships, you have teams representing regions rather than provinces. Doesn't that make more sense in order to ensure that a talented kid plays in the right environment in terms of competitiveness?

I'll bet that you could never set up that kind of format for a national tournament in soccer because every assocation from the tinest province would be looking out for number one to preserve their fiefdom. So what happens if you happen to be a talented athlete from one of these small provinces? you would be forced to play along side some inferior talent because your province doesn't have the numbers. Hows is that going to make you standout? Or how is it going to help the talented kid playeing from one of the bigger provinces wwhen playing aaginst province X and running up the score to 6-0.

When I started coaching hockey with my my kids in Quebec, I had to do a course in which we went over teaching skills to kids under the age of 7. Every session was outlined- 32 in total. As a coach I was expected to follow it. If not- I wouldn't be coaching and if my association refused to follow it, they'd be fined up the ying yang. The system is called MAGH and was develolped by a wide range of specilists. It's excellent and I walked away with a 4 year plan.

This was done all through hockey quebec.

What that mean is that every kid is Quebec is taught the basic skills just like every other kids in the province is taught.

There is nothing as wide planned in soccer. It simply wouldn't be allowed. Local technical directors would moan and bitch that it didn't serve thier needs (earning a pay-check)and individual youth coaches ego's wouldn't be able to deal with a system that they didn't control.

Soccer is run way to loose in this country and is a huge reason why we lag behind the rest of the world. There simply isn't the structure in place at the 5-13 level.

Imagine the improvement if every U-9 coach and below it, had to run the same skill sessions that were designed by people who knew the game, or what 9 year olds can realistically do.

We start to get better as a nation.

But this will never happen as long as we have local TD'S making 70 grand a year.

[analyst]

I attended the Canada Finland junior hockey game yesterday and they repeated the CHA information about its player testing program. Imagine if I, as a soccer coach, could test my players, say 10 years old, and compare the results to elite teams from other provinces or to national averages. The results woudl show that my kids need lots of improvement in dribbling or shooting, but not at juggling or passing, or vice versa. I could then use the information to run practices that concentrate on areas where the kids need to develop the most.

[piltdownman]

Well sounds like Quebec Hockey is leaps and bounds better than what we have here in BC. I coached a team here a few years ago. I was in grade twelve at the time and applied to my local minor hockey association (Where at the time I was a pretty elite player and a referee) to be an assistant coach. Turns out there was a lack of coaches and I was given a head coach job. I had to go to a weekend course but that was it. I was given some great drill packages and reading material, but no set rules or guidelines. The only thing that saved my bacon was my father, who had coached or assistant coached my brother and me all through our childhood. If it wasn't for my dad i wouldn't know what to do really.

The toughest part was that I drafted a team of players from about four try outs. I didn't know anything about the nature of the kids, or if they were problem cases. Turns out I drafted two bad apples who had parents that didn't support me. If I sat their kids because they were behaving badly they would come and yell at me. It didn't matter if they were making verbal and physical attacks on players from both teams the parents would always back their kids and not me. Also take into account these were 13 and 14 year olds playing house league hockey. Eventually I had a meeting with the offending kids parents and said that their kids wouldn't play until they acted properly. The tried to get me replaced but the league and the other parents backed me up, plus who else would I get. One kid did come back and try to be better, so he played. The other kid just didn't come back for the rest of the season. Something I still feel bad about. Eventually the season ended and that was the end of my coaching career.

Maybe it was my fault. I didn't do the best of jobs, but I really tried. All in all I shouldn't have been put in that position. So who knows.

----

On the other side of the coin. As a player i'm not sure about standardized testing. The only thing like that I had was once we had a skating test. Where we did all these laser timed excesses. A few weeks later we each got a piece of paper saying on each test were we were in terms of the province in both % and ranking. I only remember that because i got 100% in everything. And ranked 2nd in Backwards skating and I think 5th in circles. i did that when i was about 13 or 14.

[matthew]

I've been completely bombarded with the U17s and the WJC for two weeks now and about a week ago I was thinking about how the U17s do things and why we couldn't do something similar in soccer.

This is how it works here in Saskatchewan (more or less). At 14 the province's best second-year Bantam hockey players are chosen through a series of zone camps. The province is divided into eigth zones (for all sports) and each of these zones select a Bantam team and they play in a tournament showcasing the top 160 Bantam players. This is a big combine for players eligible for the Western Hockey League bantam draft.

Also from that tournament (and I believe some other camps) they select the top-40 who then attend a camp in the summer with the year previous' top-40 as they prepare to enter Midget. After their two years of top-40 this elite group gets looked at in their 16-year-old year during the summer in another top-40. Based partly on that and partly on their play in Midget AAA or the WHL, 11 are chosen for Team Western (with the best 11 from Manitoba) for the World Under-17 Hockey Challenge.

The U17 has five regional teams playing the U17 national teams from Germany, Czech, Slovakia, Finland and the US. This gives them a taste of international competition on home ice. They’re also fairly familiar with their 10 provincial teammates from three summers of elite top-40 camps which helps add familiarity both on the ice and off. Also this is a good proving ground for young coaches as well.

From there the most impressive players get invited to two camps before two U18 international tournaments — the IIHF World Under-18 Championships held in April and the Under-18 Junior World Cup held in August — the former coincides with the major junior playoffs and limits participation. One is also in Europe which helps players adjust to international ice, foreign lodging, food and officials.

So by time they are selected for the Under-20 team and the WJC they have faced top-level international competition for two years, know most of their teammates and have gone from provincial to national summer evaluation camps for five years running. In theory they know exactly what the process is, what the coaching staff expects and there is a consistency of process all along the line in the Program of Excellence.

I don’t see why we can’t do something similar to the U17s. Except we’d have to do it younger. Why can’t we pick five elite regional teams at the U15 level (or U14, but that’s probably too young?). I believe soccer players really need to have that base level of skill and touch at an early age and since most are already off to Europe at a young age, I think we need something at the U15 or so. Get a BC team, a prairie team (Alta/Sask/Man), Ont, Que and the four Atlantic provinces together. Bring in either elite academy teams (I mean elite, elite) or strong international sides and you have a strong first step for identifying players.

Then a step towards international competition. Have a big camp in April. Send a team to the Under-16 Ballymena Youth Turnament in Northern Ireland which would provide an nice step up in competition. Then send a couple of Under-17 teams (maybe an east and west select teams) to Dallas Cup’s Super Group also in April. That should help prepare the Under-17 group for a run at the FIFA Under-17s.

Now obviously people slip through the cracks. It happens in the vaunted Hockey Canada progam. If we don’t have a WHL head coach, I’m not sure Justin Pogge becomes a late addition for the summer camp and eventually earn the nod for the World Juniors. Because I don’t think he was high on the radar before being traded to Calgary last year at the deadline. Heck last year WJC defenceman Shea Webber wasn’t even drafted as a Bantam player IIRC.

Hopefully the various provincial all-star teams helps kids from falling in the cracks and helps late bloomers get identified. That being said I think we’re doing an all right job right now at least at the U20 level. Lots of camps, lots of varied competitions where we’re looking at a lot of different people (U20 developmental, U18 at Canada Summer Games, U18/19s at the Francophone Games, the U18 English camp, etc).

I agree that having standardized tests would be useful, but surely isn’t the be all and end all. There’s enough skills and intangibles like vision and understanding that hard to quantify with raw data. But it wouldn’t hurt.

All that being said; I think there are things to be learned from how Hockey Canada does things, but I don’t think we’re doing a bad job of developing some pretty good young players. We’re doing decently at the U20 level and sending some quality young guys overseas for better training and experience. It’s taking those U20s and getting them to progress as fast, if not faster, than our competition that has often been the problem. And at that age group it’s not really the CSAs job to make you better.

cheers,

matthew

[Obinna]

This is an excellent idea Matthew.

Provincal All-Star Teams do well to keep players from falling through the cracks.

But i'm amazing nobody on this site has mentioned the case of Ottawa.

Now--mabye i'm wrong here, but it seems to me that the majority of Team Ontario players come from the GTA. Which ever players are not from the GTA are almost ALWAYS from somewhere in Southern Ontario. Sometimes one or two players from the Ottawa region make the team, but anymore than 2 is rare.

Is this a matter of Geography(easier to gather players for training) or are the quality of players from Ottawa simply not up to par with Southern Ontario? This is a question i've always pondered--people of Ontario...please answer this for me.

Either way though, at 1.2 million, Ottawa is Canada's fouth largest CMA. But how many players from this region are ever present at the Canadian National All-Star Competition???

Take in comparison a city like Winnipeg who are only pushing 700,000 people.

They are our 8th largest CMA but i'd bet my life that they easily have 8 times as many players playing in National All-star competitions.

If players are falling through the cracks anywhere it's Ottawa.

In my opinion Ottawa is far to LARGE of a region to Ignore.

Perhaps Ontario should adopt California's system. For example, in California they have a "Team Southern California" and "Team Northern California"

This ensures San Fransisco Bay Area players or Sacremento based players don't fall off the US radar.

Too bad something like this cannot be used in Ontario.