Petition against the CSA

[MLSFAN]

quote:Originally posted by Mpenza

What do you know about that deal anyway?

Let me tell you what's behind it. MLSE paid 8 million dollars, and in return, THEY manage a 65-million dollar stadium and THEY make money out of it FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. Sweet deal indeed. Anyone would've done the same.

It has NOTHING to do with soccer though, it's all about a stadium, and if that includes paying 10 million bucks for an MLS team, what the heck, it doesn't change much. The stadium is not gonna vanish if the team folds in 2009, now will it? And the deal they have runs until 2027, so why bother about soccer when you have a stadium with which you can make money (even on Canadian national soccer teams games) for the next 20 years?

I'm just saying... check every detail of that MLSE thingy before you support it. sure on the short term, it's great for you guys in T.O. Heck, I might even go to a game or two, but in the long run, is it really profitable for Canadian Soccer as a whole? Allow me to doubt that.

That said, this is my last post here. If you don't agree with this petition, just don't sign it, but don't waste your time signing it with insults, they will be deleted.

If it was such a sweatheart deal, why was there not others lined up to do it?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by MLSFAN

If it was such a sweatheart deal, why was there not others lined up to do it?

No one else had the nerve ot lack of morality to demand it. Anyother corporation would be actually ashamed of the deal.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

No one else had the nerve ot lack of morality to demand it. Anyother corporation would be actually ashamed of the deal.

Yes, every corporation is ashamed to make money and expand their brand.

You should really run for CEO of a major corporation with such astute business savvy.

[MLSFAN]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

No one else had the nerve ot lack of morality to demand it. Anyother corporation would be actually ashamed of the deal.

What a nugget of information. Do you pull them out of your &)__(&*(.

A stadium needed to be built for WYC. What is so hard to understand here. MLSE stepped up and when no one else did to bridge the gap.

We here in Toronto are quite happy. We really are tired of all the haters.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Mpenza

What do you know about that deal anyway?

Let me tell you what's behind it. MLSE paid 8 million dollars, and in return, THEY manage a 65-million dollar stadium and THEY make money out of it FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. Sweet deal indeed. Anyone would've done the same.

It has NOTHING to do with soccer though, it's all about a stadium, and if that includes paying 10 million bucks for an MLS team, what the heck, it doesn't change much. The stadium is not gonna vanish if the team folds in 2009, now will it? And the deal they have runs until 2027, so why bother about soccer when you have a stadium with which you can make money (even on Canadian national soccer teams games) for the next 20 years?

I'm just saying... check every detail of that MLSE thingy before you support it. sure on the short term, it's great for you guys in T.O. Heck, I might even go to a game or two, but in the long run, is it really profitable for Canadian Soccer as a whole? Allow me to doubt that.

That said, this is my last post here. If you don't agree with this petition, just don't sign it, but don't waste your time signing it with insults, they will be deleted.

So what if it's all about the stadium? If it brings us a soccer team to fill said stadium, then so be it.

These are private businesses, not charities. There has to be some give and take in these deals.

What I don't understand is why all of the detractors are so sure that the team will fold in 3 years or so. I know there is an underlying hatred for all things Toronto by many non-Toronto people on this board, and it's compounded by the fact that the team will be owned by the much-hated Maple Leafs, but I still have a sneaking suspicion that if the team were to be owned by Rogers or any other large corporation that the sentiment will still be the same.

[mcgill]

MLSE is only interested in making money with the stadium. They don't care about soccer and will sell or move the team as soon as they'll be able to. See their interest at this link

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/10/29/1284075-sun.html

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Not only that I saw you yesterday,oops Sunday and I am twice your size.Not that it matters,your mouth or I guess your fingers maybe my size. yes I have seen and experienced so much more than anyone on this board. not bragging just observing.I have never found anyone who totally agreed with me although John MacMahon also maintained that something fishy was going on while he was manager of the Blizzard. my old buddy Jim Hubay was also conconced that the Canadian media was totally against soccer in canada and thought this was organized. I know that my phone lines were bugged. I once wrote a letter to the Russian sports minister and i thought that this may have started something. My lines were being bugged,this I knew.A lot of things happened in the past that are unexplainable and quite mysterious.Again there is a lot of money at stake and it may very well be that some of the other sports tried to stop soccer.These funny little guys were sometimes exposed and levoila the Watergate.This GL guy is a weirdo and I really don't know why he is on this board other than with very deviuous intentions as I have related to.It is indeed a shame that we still are up against this thing that make people shudder or wonder about their alternitave motives.

Next time I will buy you half a beer, you are not that tall and only good for half!

John, were u the big guy wearing glasses sitting by dbailey? Cuz i said hi on my way out but forgot to ask your handle. So I guess I know who you are (if you are who I think you are).

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by mcgill

MLSE is only interested in making money with the stadium. They don't care about soccer and will sell or move the team as soon as they'll be able to. See their interest at this link

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/10/29/1284075-sun.html

OH MY GOD!!!!

Can you imagine the gall!?!?! So they have the operating contract and they want to make money.....did you expect them to sit on their butts and just have the MLS team play there and not bother trying to prevent any losses?

Good on them.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by River City

OH MY GOD!!!!

Can you imagine the gall!?!?! So they have the operating contract and they want to make money.....did you expect them to sit on their butts and just have the MLS team play there and not bother trying to prevent any losses?

Good on them.

No kidding.

This is what I don't understand. MLSE is being villified for actually trying to get the best business deal for their company.

I know that everyone loves to paint Kerfoot and Saputo as these larger-than-life philanthropists, but the reality is that they are businessmen too, and given the same situation would take the deal just as MLSE has.

[MLSFAN]

quote:Originally posted by mcgill

MLSE is only interested in making money with the stadium. They don't care about soccer and will sell or move the team as soon as they'll be able to. See their interest at this link

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/10/29/1284075-sun.html

What else are they supposed to do. Run it to lose money. MLSE has a divison that runs stadiums. They tender for rights to run facilities. Thats part of what they do.

Your post is moronic. Yes thier interest is to make money on it. The article points out what they will do to make it. WHere does it say they are not interested in soccer you fool.

[Franky]

let me try and add my bit, rudi pretty much answered it for me but i'll try to elaborate on it.

recently, CSA got the WYC and a stade plus $35 + $8 million from the government. MLSE bridged the gap. Looking at the big picture, CSA has never done anything for Canadian soccer for the past (i don't know) 19 years since the WC MNT (aside from lucking out with the u-19 Women's) , basically nil in the whole big picture.

MLSE is throwing their hat into the ring, just as Kerfoot and Saputo did in the past. Kerfoot SAVED a storied franchise and Saputo created one (AGAIN PEOPLE MISS THIS AND GET THIS RIGHT!!!) with the blessing of the CSA to join the APSL in 1993. NO DIFFERENT. what was wrong with trying to save the CSL and instead saving USA soccer. Now the shoe is on the other foot and USA soccer is trying to save Canadiana soccer. if the MLSE, bolts and sells the MLS team to another prospective buyer that will keep the team hear, all is good.

would i be upset if they did this for Vancouver or Montreal, (READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY, for god sakes) answer NO!! absolutely not because it benefits soccer (hopefully) in the long run. i'm envious of the success of Montreal, but don't forget non-profit is a business too, if it doesn't do well, goodbye!!

continue to form your petitions and your naysaying, it only hurts the image of the game here (not only in T.O.)

[mcgill]

In 1971, Sam Berger owner of the Montreal Alouettes got a franchise in the NASL (the Montreal Olympique) to try to make more money with the Autostade that the Als rented on package deal basis. This team was last in the league for 3 years and then folded. He lined up players on loan from lower English divisions and reserve teams and these guys had to go back before the end of the season leaving the team with a lack of players. By the way, did you know that Graeme Souness played for the Olympique.

NE Revolution has the lowest payroll in the MLS. Why? They are owned by the owner of the NE Patriots of the NFL and also owner of the stadium. His first goal: money for the stadium.

What I mean is that the MLSE is primarily a stadium operator and that they operate a soccer team with the only goal of having guaranteed dates in their stadium. For example, they want more US players on the roster, they wanted the MNT coaching staff. They have to operate this team otherwise they wouldn't get the stadium and they will operate this team at the lesser possible cost in money and time for them. The main problem is lesser cost in time not in money.

And, when someone doesn't agree with you, it is not a reason to call him moron or fool.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

John, were u the big guy wearing glasses sitting by dbailey? Cuz i said hi on my way out but forgot to ask your handle. So I guess I know who you are (if you are who I think you are).

John doesn't have glasses (or at least wasn't wearing them on Sunday if he does). I think you might be referring to Bill Spiers.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No kidding.

This is what I don't understand. MLSE is being villified for actually trying to get the best business deal for their company.

I know that everyone loves to paint Kerfoot and Saputo as these larger-than-life philanthropists, but the reality is that they are businessmen too, and given the same situation would take the deal just as MLSE has.

The topic is a petition against the CSA for the deal, and only a few are also questioning the commitment of MLSE. The thing that I don't get about this whole process is the vigour in which what is not a good deal for Canadian soccer is being defended. Almost everyone in the "MLS is the solution camp", has waxed on about 3 MLS teams - and I can see why, since one brings nothing of value to the table - yet want to defend a deal that 1) craps on two individuals who have put money where their mouth is and have built successful soccer franchises in this country by giving the right to their markets to a johnny come lately from another community (one of whom has provided the CSA with office space and a trainined facility) 2) slows rather than speeds the timeframe in which MLS (allegedly the solution) will spread to Canada 3) virtually ensures that no senior national team games will be played outside of the Toronto (at least this one can be varied by the CSA actually trying to provide a real number of home games.)

So in the light of this, how can I conclude anything but that the majority of the "MLS is the solution" guys really don't give a damn about anything other than improving their soccer viewing opportunities in Toronto and don't give a damn about anything past that (although I do recognize a few who have more than proven their bona fides when it come to wanting the best for Canadian soccer and thus get the benefit of the doubt from me). Of course, questioning the deal, and its impact on soccer in Canada makes me a "hater" apparently:. Well guess what boys, this is not about options other than MLS, or even, in my case at least, an issue with MLS in Toronto. We are now down that path with no turning back. What it is about is the CSA signing a stupid deal, a deal that has come about only becasue Richard Peddie, that Guru of Canadian soccer, has decided that he needs access to the best available Canadian players and doesn't believe that there are 20 players, and another 10-12 youth players able to play MLS. That is not a good deal for Canadian soccer, even if every optimistic statement that has been made defending this deal come is accurate. 2 years ago, MLSE was not even on the radar and now they own an MLS franchisw. But now everyone is willing to accept two possible MLS markets, with owners possessing the means to jump sooner, rather than later, are both forced to wait at least 5 years to go forward, that is assuming that MLSE doesn't choose to exercise their rights to those markets. Frankly, Peddie's assessment of the available talent in Canada is not a good enough reason to sign off on this deal. Why so many find this acceptable is beyond my comprehension, because it certainly could not have been a deal breaker. Since we are already on the MLS path, why do everything in our power to minimize the benefits? So Vancouver is next in in 2010 (according to the MLS guys this is what is going to happen) do they exclusivity to all of Canada except Ontario until 2015? How many world cups have to go by before we get our coveted 3 teams in Canada? How many 18 and 18 year old soccer players have to see their development compromised because MLSE wants to squeeze every dime out of this venture? There are casualties you have to accept - The Hartrells were obstacles to a Canadian League, and they were obstacles to MLS, for the good of soccer in Canada, they have to be sacrificed. I can see that, but both Saputo and Kerfoot deserve better than they are getting. I know very well why MLSE wanted this deal. What I can't accept is the CSA giving in.

[MLSFAN]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The topic is a petition against the CSA for the deal, and only a few are also questioning the commitment of MLSE. The thing that I don't get about this whole process is the vigour in which what is not a good deal for Canadian soccer is being defended. Almost everyone in the "MLS is the solution camp", has waxed on about 3 MLS teams - and I can see why, since one brings nothing of value to the table - yet want to defend a deal that 1) craps on two individuals who have put money where their mouth is and have built successful soccer franchises in this country by giving the right to their markets to a johnny come lately from another community (one of whom has provided the CSA with office space and a trainined facility) 2) slows rather than speeds the timeframe in which MLS (allegedly the solution) will spread to Canada 3) virtually ensures that no senior national team games will be played outside of the Toronto (at least this one can be varied by the CSA actually trying to provide a real number of home games.)

So in the light of this, how can I conclude anything but that the majority of the "MLS is the solution" guys really don't give a damn about anything other than improving their soccer viewing opportunities in Toronto and don't give a damn about anything past that (although I do recognize a few who have more than proven their bona fides when it come to wanting the best for Canadian soccer and thus get the benefit of the doubt from me). Of course, questioning the deal, and its impact on soccer in Canada makes me a "hater" apparently:. Well guess what boys, this is not about options other than MLS, or even, in my case at least, an issue with MLS in Toronto. We are now down that path with no turning back. What it is about is the CSA signing a stupid deal, a deal that has come about only becasue Richard Peddie, that Guru of Canadian soccer, has decided that he needs access to the best available Canadian players and doesn't believe that there are 20 players, and another 10-12 youth players able to play MLS. That is not a good deal for Canadian soccer, even if every optimistic statement that has been made defending this deal come is accurate. 2 years ago, MLSE was not even on the radar and now they own an MLS franchisw. But now everyone is willing to accept two possible MLS markets, with owners possessing the means to jump sooner, rather than later, are both forced to wait at least 5 years to go forward, that is assuming that MLSE doesn't choose to exercise their rights to those markets. Frankly, Peddie's assessment of the available talent in Canada is not a good enough reason to sign off on this deal. Why so many find this acceptable is beyond my comprehension, because it certainly could not have been a deal breaker. Since we are already on the MLS path, why do everything in our power to minimize the benefits? So Vancouver is next in in 2010 (according to the MLS guys this is what is going to happen) do they exclusivity to all of Canada except Ontario until 2015? How many world cups have to go by before we get our coveted 3 teams in Canada? How many 18 and 18 year old soccer players have to see their development compromised because MLSE wants to squeeze every dime out of this venture? There are casualties you have to accept - The Hartrells were obstacles to a Canadian League, and they were obstacles to MLS, for the good of soccer in Canada, they have to be sacrificed. I can see that, but both Saputo and Kerfoot deserve better than they are getting. I know very well why MLSE wanted this deal. What I can't accept is the CSA giving in.

What a pointless rant. Total and utterly stupid in all senses.

Lets see. Toronto should be deprived of Pro Soccer so the sucky Saputo and the Johhny COme Latly keerfoot can be takin care of. Go awy and get an opinion.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

John doesn't have glasses (or at least wasn't wearing them on Sunday if he does). I think you might be referring to Bill Spiers.

Ok, got it now.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

While I think the CSA has put too much effort into this Toronto MLS team at the expence of the rest of the country I will not be signing this online petition. I think this Toronto team will be good for this country; however, I really think the CSA have not done enough for Vancouver and Montreal. Saying that the USL is an amateur league and the MLS will not hurt these teams is just disrespectful. At the very least say its a lesser league and make some comparison that is less damaging to the three pro teams currently in this country would be more tasteful. I have said all along that Vancouver doesn't need a handout, but it could use a hand. The rumor here is that the city of vancouver wants a two year review (Currently they have a six month primary review), after they have again rumored to have filled the whitecaps with the false hope of city land for two years for the the new stadium. If the CSA lobbied all thee level of government here to cut through the red tape with the effort they used in Toronto to get the stadium paid for, many people on this side of the country wouldn't be so hostile towards whats happening in hogtown.

Point taken, but what many out West forget is that the CSA bent over backwards to accomodate FIFA, not MLSE,with respect to an SSS in Toronto. The WYC deal involved soccer being shown off in Canada's media capital and largest city in an SSS for which FIFA gave the CSA cash for the feasability studies and design process. The SSS had to be built, end of story. So, that type of pressure was not on CSA where Vancouver or Montreal was concerned. The CSA had to get a stadium built at all costs if they wanted to maintain any credibility at all with FIFA and CONCACAF.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

So what if it's all about the stadium? If it brings us a soccer team to fill said stadium, then so be it.

These are private businesses, not charities. There has to be some give and take in these deals.

What I don't understand is why all of the detractors are so sure that the team will fold in 3 years or so. I know there is an underlying hatred for all things Toronto by many non-Toronto people on this board, and it's compounded by the fact that the team will be owned by the much-hated Maple Leafs, but I still have a sneaking suspicion that if the team were to be owned by Rogers or any other large corporation that the sentiment will still be the same.

Rudi, your suspicion is correct. As long as there is a Toronto MLS team they will hate it. The only Toronto team these haters like is the Lynx because, well, you never hear about them. And thats how the haters like it.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by MLSFAN

What a pointless rant. Total and utterly stupid in all senses.

Lets see. Toronto should be deprived of Pro Soccer so the sucky Saputo and the Johhny COme Latly keerfoot can be takin care of. Go awy and get an opinion.

Its not clear to me from this post if I should put you in the "I think the exclusivity clause would be a deal breaker for MLSE because..." camp, or in the "Pointless troll" category. Unfortunately a category with far too many entrants these days.

To clarify it further for you, treating Saputo and Kerfoot with some repsect, and leaving open the opportuntiy of MLS expansion in their markets are not contingent on denying a MLS franchise in Toronto. It is not an either or proposition. Unless you have good reason to beleive that MLSE would walk away from he entire deal unless they got that exclusivity clause.

[MLSFAN]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Its not clear to me from this post if I should put you in the "I think the exclusivity clause would be a deal breaker for MLSE because..." camp, or in the "Pointless troll" category. Unfortunately a category with far too many entrants these days.

To clarify it further for you, treating Saputo and Kerfoot with some repsect, and leaving open the opportuntiy of MLS expansion in their markets are not contingent on denying a MLS franchise in Toronto. It is not an either or proposition. Unless you have good reason to beleive that MLSE would walk away from he entire deal unless they got that exclusivity clause.

Ever here of protecting your investment?

Moan and complain its all you got. Toronto deserves all the National Team matches it gets.

[Bill Spiers]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Ok, got it now.

I believe John left before you did. The beard (mine) would be the other identifier along with the glasses.

And a word of warning for next time - I'm a Spurs fan!

[Bill Spiers]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Ok, got it now.

I believe John left before you did. The beard (mine) would be the other identifier along with the glasses.

And a word of warning for next time - I'm a Spurs fan!

[Bill Spiers]

Not sure if any of the TO Voyageurs were at the OSA Annual Awards banquet on Nov 5th.

With the OSA/Everton agreement being announced the day before and a number of Everton personnel being present at the banquet, they showed a 'motivational' video that Everton had produced for their players. The video itself featured highlights from the Everton v. Liverpool derby game from December 2004 - a game Everton won 1-0.

The musical accompaniment was a recent 'hit' which has some 'motivational' lyrics that I think can be applied to our current situation.

(NOTE: The trivia buffs amongst you can guess at the song title - but if you were at the banquet, leave it for others to do the guessing).

"Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity

To seize everything you ever wanted-One moment

Would you capture it or just let it slip?"

With the FIFA U-20 Championships - an MLS franchise in Toronto - and a new stadium an integral part of these two events, this is an opportunity that we cannot let slip through our fingers! We have to make the FIFA Championships a success (and that applies across Canada - not just in TO)! We have to help make the MLS franchise a success! And we have to put fans in the stadium for ALL the soccer games that are played there!

"You better lose yourself in the music, the moment

You own it, you better never let it go

You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow

This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo"

This may be our last shot at making soccer a success in Toronto and in the rest of Canada. For the older soccer fans around - who have lived through the NASL days, the Metros-Croatia Championship in 1976, the CSL days, the 1986 World Cup, the Gold Cup victory, and all the promises of better times to come - this may be that once in a lifetime opportunity!

I know I'm preaching to the converted with the TO Voyageurs but we need the support of soccer fans across the country. Most people I know in TO were supportive of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic bid - even though it meant a future TO bid for the Summer Olympics was pushed further off into the future. Why this mindless antagonism towards Toronto? If we can make soccer a success in Toronto, it can benefit the entire country. And remember, Ontario Soccer provides funding to the CSA (National Teams, National Training Centres, etc.) of about 45% of total CSA fees - way in excess of population statistics which have Ontario at around 38% of the Canadian population. (Yet our vote at CSA meetings is capped at 25%. Does the phrase "No Taxation Without Representation" ring any bells?).

So if you are a Canadian soccer fan, let's all pull together and make 2007 a turning point in Canadian soccer history! And if it is a turning point, Montreal and Vancouver in the MLS will come sooner than you think!

"You can do anything you set your mind to, man"

[Bill Spiers]

Not sure if any of the TO Voyageurs were at the OSA Annual Awards banquet on Nov 5th.

With the OSA/Everton agreement being announced the day before and a number of Everton personnel being present at the banquet, they showed a 'motivational' video that Everton had produced for their players. The video itself featured highlights from the Everton v. Liverpool derby game from December 2004 - a game Everton won 1-0.

The musical accompaniment was a recent 'hit' which has some 'motivational' lyrics that I think can be applied to our current situation.

(NOTE: The trivia buffs amongst you can guess at the song title - but if you were at the banquet, leave it for others to do the guessing).

"Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity

To seize everything you ever wanted-One moment

Would you capture it or just let it slip?"

With the FIFA U-20 Championships - an MLS franchise in Toronto - and a new stadium an integral part of these two events, this is an opportunity that we cannot let slip through our fingers! We have to make the FIFA Championships a success (and that applies across Canada - not just in TO)! We have to help make the MLS franchise a success! And we have to put fans in the stadium for ALL the soccer games that are played there!

"You better lose yourself in the music, the moment

You own it, you better never let it go

You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow

This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo"

This may be our last shot at making soccer a success in Toronto and in the rest of Canada. For the older soccer fans around - who have lived through the NASL days, the Metros-Croatia Championship in 1976, the CSL days, the 1986 World Cup, the Gold Cup victory, and all the promises of better times to come - this may be that once in a lifetime opportunity!

I know I'm preaching to the converted with the TO Voyageurs but we need the support of soccer fans across the country. Most people I know in TO were supportive of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic bid - even though it meant a future TO bid for the Summer Olympics was pushed further off into the future. Why this mindless antagonism towards Toronto? If we can make soccer a success in Toronto, it can benefit the entire country. And remember, Ontario Soccer provides funding to the CSA (National Teams, National Training Centres, etc.) of about 45% of total CSA fees - way in excess of population statistics which have Ontario at around 38% of the Canadian population. (Yet our vote at CSA meetings is capped at 25%. Does the phrase "No Taxation Without Representation" ring any bells?).

So if you are a Canadian soccer fan, let's all pull together and make 2007 a turning point in Canadian soccer history! And if it is a turning point, Montreal and Vancouver in the MLS will come sooner than you think!

"You can do anything you set your mind to, man"

[john tv]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

John, were u the big guy wearing glasses sitting by dbailey? Cuz i said hi on my way out but forgot to ask your handle. So I guess I know who you are (if you are who I think you are).