Attendances at the SkyDome

[RS]

They do have the odd weeknight game in the summer, but the vast majority of the matches fall on weekends.

[john tv]

From what I recall, viewing the stats from Holland,it appears that the majority of the teams barely exceed 10k per game. It's the big boys that draw the big crowds. But you are only talking about 5 teams only. The others all are in that range while sometimes 6 or 7000 are the norm.

I guess it matters how many there are living in a city. This is where Toronto should shine.If we add in the surroundings areas we are talking about close to 5 million within a driving distance of the stadium.One of one percent would be a sell out.I just hope that the ticket prices are all less than $20 while the kids should get the promotional clubshirt ticket price.I wonder if they would consider the affiliated club system which seemed to work while I was at the Blizzard.These promotions were good for at least 7 to 800 screaming kids plus parents and or relatives.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I was at all these games except the Benfica one, and I think these attendances are about right, though perhaps the Parma match was closer to 14 or 15K.

Its funny how these crowds, all at Varsity, were considered great crowds at the time, yet when a couple of developmental squads for foreign team play on a Wednesday in November for $70 and still pull in a similar large crowd size its cited as "bad omen" for MLS. Perhaps its the effect of putting a 15,000 crowd into a 54,000 seat facility that makes people think this way.

A friend of mine was involved with the Parma match and he said it was a sell out. However, he also told me that a block of 1500 or so tickets had been stolen. How that effected things I don't know.

I agree with you about the Skydome. 15k in Varsity would have been considered acceptable although I was always disappointed with anything less than a sellout of Varsity for the big games.

That said, it sure looks better doesn't it (especially on tv).

db

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I was at all these games except the Benfica one, and I think these attendances are about right, though perhaps the Parma match was closer to 14 or 15K.

Its funny how these crowds, all at Varsity, were considered great crowds at the time, yet when a couple of developmental squads for foreign team play on a Wednesday in November for $70 and still pull in a similar large crowd size its cited as "bad omen" for MLS. Perhaps its the effect of putting a 15,000 crowd into a 54,000 seat facility that makes people think this way.

A friend of mine was involved with the Parma match and he said it was a sell out. However, he also told me that a block of 1500 or so tickets had been stolen. How that effected things I don't know.

I agree with you about the Skydome. 15k in Varsity would have been considered acceptable although I was always disappointed with anything less than a sellout of Varsity for the big games.

That said, it sure looks better doesn't it (especially on tv).

db

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

By the way, the most relevant attendances as an indicator of what MLS Toronto might get - in my view, they are the attendances of other MLS cities. I don't see why Toronto shouldn't be expected to get to the league average. These cities tend to have the same issues as Toronto - ie. lots of Eurosnobs, preference for major league teams only, and have had poorly attended (by comparison to MLS) A-league or APSL teams in their cities like Toronto has had. Or put it this way, I think the Lynx attendance has as much relevance to the Toronto MLS team as the A-league's Long Island Roughriders attendance did to the attendance of the Metrostars.

Exactly...and Toronto never was even average in the NASL...often well below average....why would that change now?

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Exactly...and Toronto never was even average in the NASL...often well below average....why would that change now?

Again, not sure what your comment has to do with the point I was making (had to do with not using A-league crowd sizes as an indicator of what MLS might get), but in any event your statement that Toronto was never even average in the NASL is not true. Many times they were below, yes, but "never"?

NASL average vs. Toronto Average

1968 NASL 4,699 vs. 5,284

1971 NASL 4,154 vs. 5,993*

1972 NASL 4,780 vs. 7,173**

1973 NASL 5,954 vs. 5,961

1974 NASL 7,770 vs. 3,458

1975 NASL 7,642 vs. 6,271

1976 NASL 10,295 vs. 5,555

1977 NASL 13,558 vs. 7,321

1978 NASL 13,084 vs. 6,233

1979 NASL 14,201 vs. 11,281

1980 NASL 14,440 vs. 15,043

1981 NASL 14,084 vs. 7,287

1982 NASL 13,155 vs. 8,105

1983 NASL 13,258 vs. 11,630

1984 NASL 10,759 vs. 11,452

* led the NASL in attendance

** 2nd in the NASL in attendance (St.Louis led league by 7,773, average of 600 more fans per game than Toronto).

So much for never being average. As for why should things change, things already have. These are decades old statistics, a lot has changed in Toronto since then, especially with regards the population and the popularity of soccer, and the ownership situation. Even during the NASL years things changed - the Metros led the league in attendance one year & three years later had the league's worst attendance. Other years they were below, other years above. What conclusions can you draw from that?

Ben Knight has something to say on this issue as well:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/nfl/columnist.jsp?content=20051111_152617_5592

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Again, not sure what your comment has to do with the point I was making (had to do with not using A-league crowd sizes as an indicator of what MLS might get), but in any event your statement that Toronto was never even average in the NASL is not true. Many times they were below, yes, but "never"?

NASL average vs. Toronto Average

1968 NASL 4,699 vs. 5,284

1971 NASL 4,154 vs. 5,993*

1972 NASL 4,780 vs. 7,173**

1973 NASL 5,954 vs. 5,961

1974 NASL 7,770 vs. 3,458

1975 NASL 7,642 vs. 6,271

1976 NASL 10,295 vs. 5,555

1977 NASL 13,558 vs. 7,321

1978 NASL 13,084 vs. 6,233

1979 NASL 14,201 vs. 11,281

1980 NASL 14,440 vs. 15,043

1981 NASL 14,084 vs. 7,287

1982 NASL 13,155 vs. 8,105

1983 NASL 13,258 vs. 11,630

1984 NASL 10,759 vs. 11,452

* led the NASL in attendance

** 2nd in the NASL in attendance (St.Louis led league by 7,773, average of 600 more fans per game than Toronto).

So much for never being average. As for why should things change, things already have. These are decades old statistics, a lot has changed in Toronto since then, especially with regards the population and the popularity of soccer, and the ownership situation. Even during the NASL years things changed - the Metros led the league in attendance one year & three years later had the league's worst attendance. Other years they were below, other years above. What conclusions can you draw from that?

Ben Knight has something to say on this issue as well:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/nfl/columnist.jsp?content=20051111_152617_5592

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Re. 1981 NASL 14,084 vs. 7,287, we have to remember that the team was absolutely horrible and attendance fell through the floor. IIRC, the team lost ten in a row near the end of the season. It was disastrous.

The 1982 season was the start of the rebuild on and off the field.

AFAIC, attendances never got back to where they should be so I've some sympathy with the nay sayers but there were enough decent crowds to show what the potential was. Three games in eight days (Sunday - Wednesday - Sunday) were occasional issues as well. The Wednesday would be crap and pull everything down. We only had so much money to spend in the period of one week. Excuses? I suppose so but hell, it was fact!

db

[TOareaFan]

Hey, I have been away and unable to respond.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Again, not sure what your comment has to do with the point I was making (had to do with not using A-league crowd sizes as an indicator of what MLS might get),

It was a direct response to your statement that the best indicator of Toronto attendance should be MLS attendances in other cities as Toronto should be able get average MLS attendances.

I was pointing out that the last time "major league" soccer was here it did not achieve average attendances.

quote:

but in any event your statement that Toronto was never even average in the NASL is not true. Many times they were below, yes, but "never"?

I can see that my use of the word "never" has caused you problems. Was not intended to mean "not one year" but more of a general "Toronto is never an average city" as far as attendances go.

quote:

NASL average vs. Toronto Average

1968 NASL 4,699 vs. 5,284

1971 NASL 4,154 vs. 5,993*

1972 NASL 4,780 vs. 7,173**

1973 NASL 5,954 vs. 5,961

1974 NASL 7,770 vs. 3,458

1975 NASL 7,642 vs. 6,271

1976 NASL 10,295 vs. 5,555

1977 NASL 13,558 vs. 7,321

1978 NASL 13,084 vs. 6,233

1979 NASL 14,201 vs. 11,281

1980 NASL 14,440 vs. 15,043

1981 NASL 14,084 vs. 7,287

1982 NASL 13,155 vs. 8,105

1983 NASL 13,258 vs. 11,630

1984 NASL 10,759 vs. 11,452

* led the NASL in attendance

** 2nd in the NASL in attendance (St.Louis led league by 7,773, average of 600 more fans per game than Toronto).

Actually, with respect, those figures do a better job of proving my point (that Toronto is, generally, a well below average attendance city for soccer in North America).

In only 6 of 15 years were they at or above average. Only 40% of their seasons....below par by any measure.

If you take the yearly league averages and average them, the result is 10,122...do the same thing for Toronto figures and you get 7,870. On average, then, in seasons where Toronto was in the NASL, they drew at a sparkling rate of 78% of the league average. When you consider that, as a rule then, Toronto "brought down the average" (ie. the league averages include the Toronto figure) Toronto did even worse when compared directly to the other teams.

I stand by my position Toronto was never even an average NASL city

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

It was a direct response to your statement that the best indicator of Toronto attendance should be MLS attendances in other cities as Toronto should be able get average MLS attendances.

I was pointing out that the last time "major league" soccer was here it did not achieve average attendances.

And I have already pointed out the value of those 21 to 38 year old attendance statistics, and that they are of considerably less value than current MLS attendances in other cities. The New York Cosmos were in comparison to Toronto getting 49,000 fans on average in some seasons, but they are getting average MLS-sized crowds and are not leading the league in attendance like they did back then. The Colorado Caribou lasted one measly season in the NASL yet the Rapids are doing fine nearly 10 years in. The Tampa Bay Rowdies & Fort Lauderdale strikers were also fairly successful in the NASL (Tampa was often 2nd in attendance to the mighty Cosmos), far more than the Colorado Caribou were - and guess what happened to the Mutiny & Fusion. They went the way of the Caribou. That's how much relevance to the MLS those NASL attendances can have - often very little.

What relevance they do have is, as David Bailey states, the potential that exists in each market for good. And that's what those of us who want to give MLS a chance are saying, the potential is there in Toronto to make it a success and we believe it could happen (nobody has said that it a a 100% slam dunk certainty that it will be a great success). We won't know if we don't try. I have noticed however in comparison that the doom & gloomers tend to be fairly certain that they know it will fail. Personally I tend to trust the viewpoints of people who don't claim to know the future with such certainty than those who do (unless the latter have a TARDIS at their disposal).

quote:

I can see that my use of the word "never" has caused you problems. Was not intended to mean "not one year" but more of a general "Toronto is never an average city" as far as attendances go.

I take it you must be British, as I only see "never" used in that fashion by British people (like Michael Palin's "That was never 5 minutes" line in the Monty Python argument sketch). Very difficult to pick up regional colloquialisms like that on the internet without an accent to help. If you had stated "usually was not a city that got average attendance in the NASL" then I wouldn't have disputed that, but "never" usually means "never" to me.

quote:

Actually, with respect, those figures do a better job of proving my point (that Toronto is, generally, a well below average attendance city for soccer in North America).

Well your argument appeared to change from what most people would have thought it meant when you used the word "never", which was what I was actually responding to. Again though your statement must be qualified in that Toronto's attendance was usually spread out over more than one pro team at a time in those days (and even in the CSL days with the Blizzard & Rockets), unlike the other cities who generally had one team to focus on. You have to take into consideration all the factors, not just the ones that support one's viewpoint

[TOareaFan]

I do not want to drag this out....clearly, we are both going to have to agree that we have a different opinion on the likelihood of MLS success in Toronto.

What we do not disagree on is that we both hope that you are right and I am wrong. I know, myself, I am just debating whether I want 4 season tickets 15 rows up at mid-field or 2. Hopefully enough other people are going through a similar personal debate.

There are a couple of points/clarifications, though, I would like to make.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And I have already pointed out the value of those 21 to 38 year old attendance statistics, and that they are of considerably less value than current MLS attendances in other cities. The New York Cosmos were in comparison to Toronto getting 49,000 fans on average in some seasons, but they are getting average MLS-sized crowds

Doesn't that scare you a bit? New York is a similarly large, ethnically diverse city as Toronto (only larger) and their crowds in MLS are considerably smaller than the old NASL crowds. If there is, in fact, a corelation in those attendance figures....Inter Toronto is in trouble.

quote:What relevance they do have is, as David Bailey states, the potential that exists in each market for good. And that's what those of us who want to give MLS a chance are saying, the potential is there in Toronto to make it a success and we believe it could happen (nobody has said that it a a 100% slam dunk certainty that it will be a great success). We won't know if we don't try. I have noticed however in comparison that the doom & gloomers tend to be fairly certain that they know it will fail. Personally I tend to trust the viewpoints of people who don't claim to know the future with such certainty than those who do (unless the latter have a TARDIS at their disposal).

I fall into a middle category (although you don't seem to pick that up). I will give it a chance. Just as I gave a chance to NASL, CSL and USL/A-League. What I don't have confidence in, at all, is that a significant number of Torontonians will.

quote:

I take it you must be British, as I only see "never" used in that fashion by British people (like Michael Palin's "That was never 5 minutes" line in the Monty Python argument sketch). Very difficult to pick up regional colloquialisms like that on the internet without an accent to help. If you had stated "usually was not a city that got average attendance in the NASL" then I wouldn't have disputed that, but "never" usually means "never" to me.

Yes, born in Britain (raised here, mostly, though) and influenced by people just like Michael Palin in my speach. As soon as I saw your reaction to my use of "never" I realized I had spun you off in the wrong direction! Sorry 'bout that. I will "never" say "never" again

quote:

Well your argument appeared to change from what most people would have thought it meant when you used the word "never", which was what I was actually responding to. Again though your statement must be qualified in that Toronto's attendance was usually spread out over more than one pro team at a time in those days (and even in the CSL days with the Blizzard & Rockets), unlike the other cities who generally had one team to focus on. You have to take into consideration all the factors, not just the ones that support one's viewpoint

My argument (that Toronto is a below average supporter of non-touring/domestic professional soccer/football) never changed but I acknowledge that the choice of words might give that appearance.

You and I discussed the "multi-team" point before in another thread and I still say that unless you can show me that other cities like Montreal, New York, etc etc....don't have similar amounts of minor pro/semi-pro/senior leagues that are comparable to what Toronto had/has then I don't think you can make that argument. I can't state/prove they did....but I suspect that they do/did.

[john tv]

What I found to be an eye opener at the Lynx games is the lack of any one who went to the Blizzard games.I rarely if ever recognized anyone and I can assure you that I know a lot of soccer people.It seemed to a totally different crowd and in fact there were many more "just" Canadian parents,and a lot of young girls which is great but what happened to all these old timers.Were they being spoiled by the games on TV or did they not know about the Lynx enough to care,or did they consider it to be bush league stuff,I really don't know.But I do know they were not at the Lynx,I guess that European crowd.Will they be back at the MLS games or does the new franchise have to forget about these guys and concentrate on the younger crowd.I guess it could be a variety of reasons,location maybe,seize of stadium as well,total lack of publicity, no one knew when a game was on,players totally unknown,transportation and even maybe parking at times, no covered stands,rain problems,remember Canada-Mexico,the status, period, of soccer in this town and of course organization.

It will be interesting what angle the new leadership will take and what the priorities are.

Anyway on and on we go,we will see and knowing some of these guys on this board nothing will be correct. I can just see our vultures waiting in the wings loaded with that venum. The funny part is that even if this thing will be succesfull some of our board members will still spout their stuff.Look how they reacted even after the CSA pulled it of.OK guys I am waiting and so are you!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

You and I discussed the "multi-team" point before in another thread and I still say that unless you can show me that other cities like Montreal, New York, etc etc....don't have similar amounts of minor pro/semi-pro/senior leagues that are comparable to what Toronto had/has then I don't think you can make that argument. I can't state/prove they did....but I suspect that they do/did.

I'll agree to disagree on the other points as you ask but on t his last one, sorry to act all lawyerly on you (a bit of my upbringing I'm afraid ) but you can't ask someone to prove that something doesn't exist in order to substantiate their argument. If you believe the other Canadian cities had multiple pro teams (and I know for a fact in the CSL only Toronto had more than one team), then I'd say its up to you to prove that those other pro teams do exist & got Toronto Italia like crowds. You can't ask someone to prove a negative. I could spend the rest of my life looking up attendance records for non-existent teams, if they don't exist of course I'll never find them.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Doesn't that scare you a bit? New York is a similarly large, ethnically diverse city as Toronto (only larger) and their crowds in MLS are considerably smaller than the old NASL crowds. If there is, in fact, a corelation in those attendance figures....Inter Toronto is in trouble.

Sorry didn't see this question initially. No, I'm not really scared about that. I know the New York Cosmos were really an international all-star team that happened to play out of New York, with the likes of Pele, Chinaglia, Jairzinho and Beckenbauer in their ranks. That's why their attendance was usually so far above all the other NASL teams. The Metrostars represent the home grown American product that would be the equivalent of what will happen with the Toronto Black Squirrels (except that the Metrostars do not have their own stadium at present).

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I'll agree to disagree on the other points as you ask but on t his last one, sorry to act all lawyerly on you (a bit of my upbringing I'm afraid ) but you can't ask someone to prove that something doesn't exist in order to substantiate their argument. If you believe the other Canadian cities had multiple pro teams (and I know for a fact in the CSL only Toronto had more than one team), then I'd say its up to you to prove that those other pro teams do exist & got Toronto Italia like crowds. You can't ask someone to prove a negative. I could spend the rest of my life looking up attendance records for non-existent teams, if they don't exist of course I'll never find them.

Sorry, I disagree (surprised). It was you that brought up the other "pro" teams in Toronto to counter my suggestion that Toronto was a poorer supporter of pro soccer when compared to other cities (specifically Montreal originally). I believe that if you are going to use this as an excuse for poor attendance in one city relative to another you have to show/prove that the condition did/does not exist in the other cities. Otherwise your argument has limited credibility and should not be introduced into the discussion.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Sorry, I disagree (surprised). It was you that brought up the other "pro" teams in Toronto to counter my suggestion that Toronto was a poorer supporter of pro soccer when compared to other cities (specifically Montreal originally). I believe that if you are going to use this as an excuse for poor attendance in one city relative to another you have to show/prove that the condition did/does not exist in the other cities. Otherwise your argument has limited credibility and should not be introduced into the discussion.

Well I can tell you're not a lawyer or a judge. That's just not the way it works. Its crazy. I mean, how am I, or anyone for that matter, expected to prove that something doesn't exist? The only thing I could to prove these they don't exist is to point out that in leagues like the ECSL Toronto had two teams in the four team league, Montreal had one (Hamilton the other), in the CSL Toronto had two teams, Montreal initially zero and then one, with Vancouver having one, and in the pre-NASL leagues that combined into the NASL Toronto had a team in each league, while Vancouver had one & Montreal had none. I can find no record of any comparable Montreal pro teams or league to the NSL in Toronto.

I might be a creative individual, but that doesn't extend to inventing non-existent soccer leagues to prove that there were no Montreal teams in them.

[john tv]

Hey G.L you forgot about the two Westwood boys,Carman Marcantonio and Robert Iarussi as well as the two Dutch boys, Neeskens and Rijsbergen.