Attendances at the SkyDome

[RS]

Relax john.

One comment made in passing does not a equal a 'conspriacy', and as G-L stated, the media has really covered the upcoming MLS team well, despite the fact that they haven't even been officially been granted a franchise yet and the team won't take the field for another year-and-a-half.

[john tv]

I am waiting for the Globe to put the finishing touches on this trend!

[john tv]

I am waiting for the Globe to put the finishing touches on this trend!

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I am waiting for the Globe to put the finishing touches on this trend!

What trend?

Stephen Brunt of the Globe has been favourable towards the stadium (and by extension, the MLS club) thus far. But I suppose you never noticed that [8)]

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I am waiting for the Globe to put the finishing touches on this trend!

What trend?

Stephen Brunt of the Globe has been favourable towards the stadium (and by extension, the MLS club) thus far. But I suppose you never noticed that [8)]

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

Starless night bad omen for MLS team

"There were few big names on display, but their replacements put on a fine show. The high-tempo affair ended in a rousing 5-3 win for Sporting. More notable for the Toronto fan was the size of the crowd at the first big international staged here since it became clear this city will welcome Major League Soccer in 2007. The paltry attendance — 14,673 — has to be a warning sign to the MLS franchise's owners at Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1131576448013&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home

[|)]

It also needs to be said that part of the problem is that santos is a Brazilain club. Being that the Brazilian community in Toronto is small and not all of them support Santos, it was basically up to the Portuguese Sporting fans to fill the stadium. I'll bet that if Sporting had played a Greek team they could have pulled over 20,000 between the Greeks and Portuguese. There is also the fact that Sporting's appeal is limited to mainly the Portuguese community. Big EPL and Italian clubs tend to have broader appeal across ethnic lines, and will pull in bigger crowds as a result. So in reality the attendance at this match tells us next to nothing about what will happen with MLS.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

Starless night bad omen for MLS team

"There were few big names on display, but their replacements put on a fine show. The high-tempo affair ended in a rousing 5-3 win for Sporting. More notable for the Toronto fan was the size of the crowd at the first big international staged here since it became clear this city will welcome Major League Soccer in 2007. The paltry attendance — 14,673 — has to be a warning sign to the MLS franchise's owners at Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1131576448013&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home

[|)]

It also needs to be said that part of the problem is that santos is a Brazilain club. Being that the Brazilian community in Toronto is small and not all of them support Santos, it was basically up to the Portuguese Sporting fans to fill the stadium. I'll bet that if Sporting had played a Greek team they could have pulled over 20,000 between the Greeks and Portuguese. There is also the fact that Sporting's appeal is limited to mainly the Portuguese community. Big EPL and Italian clubs tend to have broader appeal across ethnic lines, and will pull in bigger crowds as a result. So in reality the attendance at this match tells us next to nothing about what will happen with MLS.

[john tv]

I am afraid that there is a slant that Steve has not written about and I suspect that the Globe will do a story analyzing this MLS thing with some nasty sidebars. That has been the trend over the years and usually I am right. I hope I have to apologize and eat crow if I am wrong. OK

[RealGooner]

What kind of slant are you refeering to?

[Massive Attack]

Guys, I found a picture of johntv:

[john tv]

This funny thanks!

[Canuck Oranje]

Just to put this is proper perspective, this was essentially a reserve team game that probably would not have drawn much more than 1,000 in Santos/Sao Paulo. Also, Santos has had some good teams in the recent past but their current standing in the Brazilian League probably flatters the current team because probably about 15-20 points were massed with Robinho in the lineup.

Finally, Santos is only the fourth most popular club in the Greater Sao Paulo area. And I wouldn't expect Corinthians, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo fans to give this game any attention, not to mention, fans from other parts of Brazil. On top of that, the Brazilian community in the GTA is probably much less than 100,000 in population.

I am not at all surprised by the attendance and being primarily Portuguese supporters.

The attendance at this game has absolutely no relevance to MLS.

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

Starless night bad omen for MLS team

"There were few big names on display, but their replacements put on a fine show. The high-tempo affair ended in a rousing 5-3 win for Sporting. More notable for the Toronto fan was the size of the crowd at the first big international staged here since it became clear this city will welcome Major League Soccer in 2007. The paltry attendance — 14,673 — has to be a warning sign to the MLS franchise's owners at Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment."

http://tinyurl.com/avz86

[|)]

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Just to put this is proper perspective, this was essentially a reserve team game that probably would not have drawn much more than 1,000 in Santos/Sao Paulo. Also, Santos has had some good teams in the recent past but their current standing in the Brazilian League probably flatters the current team because probably about 15-20 points were massed with Robinho in the lineup.

Finally, Santos is only the fourth most popular club in the Greater Sao Paulo area. And I wouldn't expect Corinthians, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo fans to give this game any attention, not to mention, fans from other parts of Brazil. On top of that, the Brazilian community in the GTA is probably much less than 100,000 in population.

I am not at all surprised by the attendance and being primarily Portuguese supporters.

The attendance at this game has absolutely no relevance to MLS.

I am a fan, I will go to the MLS games but I just think there won't be many of us, consistantly, doing that.

What I tire of, though, is that when anyone raises concerns about attendance we are, basically, told to be quiet as it "....has no relevance"

When I, and others, have stated before that attendance at Lynx games is a poor indicator....no relevance.

When I, and others, point out that the Blizzard/Metros/Metros-Croatia hardly lit up the sky with attendance....no relevance.

When others point out that last night's attendance (and the attendance at the Rangers game earlier this year) was not exactly stellar....no relevance.

What are the relevant indicators of potential attendance in Toronto? Is the super-hyped Celtic/Roma/Porto/Liverpool weekend last year? Are the only relevant games the ones that had good attendance?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Just to put this is proper perspective, this was essentially a reserve team game that probably would not have drawn much more than 1,000 in Santos/Sao Paulo. Also, Santos has had some good teams in the recent past but their current standing in the Brazilian League probably flatters the current team because probably about 15-20 points were massed with Robinho in the lineup.

Finally, Santos is only the fourth most popular club in the Greater Sao Paulo area. And I wouldn't expect Corinthians, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo fans to give this game any attention, not to mention, fans from other parts of Brazil. On top of that, the Brazilian community in the GTA is probably much less than 100,000 in population.

I am not at all surprised by the attendance and being primarily Portuguese supporters.

The attendance at this game has absolutely no relevance to MLS.

I wonder what demographic the Kansas City Wizards will turn out in April when it's raining and 4C in an open stadium.

I doubt that 1/5 of those Porto Fans will make time to attend that game.

I think the fact that the MLSE should be worrying is due to the fact that there probably wasn't a single casual soccer fan at the game. Which I'm betting the MSLE will have to draw to make it work. And if they do get him and his son out, it'll prove my point that the average fan doesn't know the difference in quality of two MLS teams and that of both Porto and Santos (Reserve team included).

14K in Toronto is a good crowd indeed.

Rudi,

People say the reason the dome can't be used for soccer is that it's a lousy place to watch a game. As from the stats, people will watch games there. Just as many people would show up at the dome for a game, and I'd say even more in the lousy weather months, than at the new stadium that being built.

Had the new joint been built I'd doubt they would have even played the game there and if they did, they would have not drawn as well as they did last night.

[Bill Ault]

as for projecting attendance I guess you can decide, as in most things in life, if the plass is half empty or half full. I guess I'm a half-full kind of guy (and before anyone else can say it half full of what )

I'm optimisitic about the MLS attendance in Toronto for a number of reasons - all of which I'm sure can be shot down by people much smarter than me.

1) This team will be kicking off in 2007 that's almost 25 years (even I can do that math)after the NASL folded - in case anyone had failed to notice a lot has happened to soccer, to Toronto and to life and how we live it in general in that time. What worked 25 years ago may not work now and what wasn't possible then is now (see Voyaguers web site).

2) The demographics of the city and the sport itself has changed in the two ensuing decades - the GTA's population has gone from about 3.5 million to 5.2 million in that time the soccer population of Ontario (you can extrapolate for Toronto) has gone from less than 75,000 to almost 400,000. The number of female players in the sport and female spectators at pro sporting events has increased by a factor of thousands.

3) Marketing has improved, become more sophisticated and for the most part works when done well and dollars are spent wisely.

Does any of the above GUARANTEE the success of the new Blizzard - of course not. Poor performance of management or the team for an extended period of time will hamper attendace at the best of times, the examples are there for all to see.

IMO I think MLSEL has the smarts to market properly (I'll use the Rock as an example) and a new stadium will give them a two or three year "honeymoon" to get the product on the field right.

Nothing in life is guaranteed but I think this has a chance IF done right. Mix in a couple of club internationals, a couple of doubleheaders and I can see a handful of sell-outs every year and a first year average of 15,000. Am I looking at the world through rose coloured glasses - probably - but you know what to my knowledge we only go round once and we may as well be optimistic about the whole deal.

My two cents.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

What I tire of, though, is that when anyone raises concerns about attendance we are, basically, told to be quiet as it "....has no relevance"

When I, and others, have stated before that attendance at Lynx games is a poor indicator....no relevance.

When I, and others, point out that the Blizzard/Metros/Metros-Croatia hardly lit up the sky with attendance....no relevance.

When others point out that last night's attendance (and the attendance at the Rangers game earlier this year) was not exactly stellar....no relevance.

What are the relevant indicators of potential attendance in Toronto? Is the super-hyped Celtic/Roma/Porto/Liverpool weekend last year? Are the only relevant games the ones that had good attendance?

You are doing an injustice to the people, including myself, who have taken the time to respond to your posts. I can't ever recall myself telling you to be quiet or to stop posting.

And since you have recently taken the stance in another thread that the Metros attendance being greater than Olympique attendances had little relevance to the present situation, how can you then turn around and complain in this thread that Metros attendance are relevant but not being treated as such? I can turn your question on its head - are the only relevant attendances for you the poor ones?

As for what attendances are relevant, probably the most relevant ones are the NASL ones since it is really the only comparable league to the MLS. But even they will be 23 years old by the time 2007 has. How much relevance can you possibly give them?

The Lynx crowds, and I say this as a regular attendee of Lynx matches for the past 5 seasons, have a lesser relevance than those 20 year old NASL statistics, in my view. How much relevance do you want to give a team that doesn't promote itself at all, has bush league owners with no media clout (except of the negative kind), plays in a bush league facility in a remote, hard-to-find location that plays in what is perceived to be a minor league (and some in Toronto might say bush league due to the presense of the Lynx) and is always a losing team to what we are about to get with an MLS team run in a SSS by a sports empire with an actual marketing budget, a team that has already gotten 100% more media coverage before they even officially exist than the Lynx have gotten in nearly 10 seasons of actual operation?

Rather than tell us you are tired of us explaining why largely irrelevant attendances figures are irrelevant, perhaps it would be more constructive to actually explain what the relevance is of these attendance figures and how they will comparable? You have attempted to do that in the past with the Lynx (but haven't really denied how different the MLS will be to the Hartrells), what is the relevante of the attendance of the Santos match?

Outside of the NASL attendances, I honestly don't see much relevance in CSL or A-league attendances for Toronot to the MLS, or matches like the Santos match (which didn't even have a poor attendance in my view) and I don't say this arbitrarily, I've explained why, as someone who's been through the NASL, CSL and A-league matches in this city.

[Gian-Luca]

By the way, the most relevant attendances as an indicator of what MLS Toronto might get - in my view, they are the attendances of other MLS cities. I don't see why Toronto shouldn't be expected to get to the league average. These cities tend to have the same issues as Toronto - ie. lots of Eurosnobs, preference for major league teams only, and have had poorly attended (by comparison to MLS) A-league or APSL teams in their cities like Toronto has had. Or put it this way, I think the Lynx attendance has as much relevance to the Toronto MLS team as the A-league's Long Island Roughriders attendance did to the attendance of the Metrostars.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

By the way, the most relevant attendances as an indicator of what MLS Toronto might get - in my view, they are the attendances of other MLS cities. I don't see why Toronto shouldn't be expected to get to the league average. These cities tend to have the same issues as Toronto - ie. lots of Eurosnobs, preference for major league teams only, and have had poorly attended (by comparison to MLS) A-league or APSL teams in their cities like Toronto has had. Or put it this way, I think the Lynx attendance has as much relevance to the Toronto MLS team as the A-league's Long Island Roughriders attendance did to the attendance of the Metrostars.

Eurosnobs...that's rich. Maybe when the moved to Canada they decided that the local game was a joke and that they watch what Canadains do best.

And considering that the New York New Jersy Metro area has 20 Million people, The Metro-Stars draw ****.

AND 20 years of sub 3K season is all that matters. ANd until someone draws more. Toronto is terrible pro market. And the MLS team will be basically full of unknowns and terrible.

And when terrible meets terrible you get

AVIATORS!

[Franky]

$70 bucks!!! to watch two developmental squads.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

AND 20 years of sub 3K season is all that matters. ANd until someone draws more. Toronto is terrible pro market. And the MLS team will be basically full of unknowns and terrible.

I have no idea what you are even trying to say here, as your posts are so incomprehensible, except that I will comment that I think you will be way off in your prediction of the Toronto MLS team being full of "unknown" and "terrible" players. If you are indeed of the opinion that Canadian players are generally terrible, and you don't think we should go the route of either MLS or judging by your anti-Aviator comments the USL teams route, what pray tell are you doing on this board? Other than trolling, that is?

Getting back to the earlier point I was making, the Metrostars have averaged around 15,000 fans during their 10 year existence. How much relevance does the fact that the New York Centaurs of the 1995 A-league averaged 1,461 fans before the MLS came to town have on the Metrostars garnering 15,000 fans as a 10 year average (which is also equivalent to the MLS league average). None at all I'd say. Its also why many of us say the Lynx attendance figures have so little relevance. I mentioned the Long Island RoughRiders, but while they attendance was generally poor after a good start, all of those years happened while an MLS was already in place - its really the Centaurs that would be the most directly relevant.

There are similar examples one could provide in LA & Colorado. Not as stark as the New York one, but still, MLS attendance has always been head & shoulders above the previous A-league counterparts (or APSL), so its difficult to see what the relevance is to the Lynx attendance to what MLS Toronto might get.

[Franky]

'87 Blizzard v. Benfica 18K

'89 Blizzard v. Flamengo 18K

'91 CSL All-stars v. AC Milan 18K

Heck, CNSL All-stars v. Parma 18K

i don't have exact figures off-hand, but i know they were in that ballpark, give or take. (most of my stats are in boxes since my move)

lets also, throw in the stynx, i mean Lynx v. Reggina sold out 9K.

all the worry about attendances, this is one venture the whole entire soccer community of T.O. and GTA will definitely support whole-heartedly. just like how the lacrosse community here got behind the Rock early on, then the players showed their stuff and the fans ate it up here. with a good marketing angle that can hit all the communites here, esp. MLSE backing this venture, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OUT TO SUPPORT THIS WITHOUT HESITATION.

G-MAN has to be on crystal meth. cause his facts are either wrong or way off. Basically, G-Man DICTATES WHAT HE WANTS TO SEE [:0]

so G-Man, F-off-man.[}]

guys just ignore the fool, until he brings something to the table that warrants an actual response, DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH HIM.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Franky

'87 Blizzard v. Benfica 18K

'89 Blizzard v. Flamengo 18K

'91 CSL All-stars v. AC Milan 18K

Heck, CNSL All-stars v. Parma 18K

I was at all these games except the Benfica one, and I think these attendances are about right, though perhaps the Parma match was closer to 14 or 15K.

Its funny how these crowds, all at Varsity, were considered great crowds at the time, yet when a couple of developmental squads for foreign team play on a Wednesday in November for $70 and still pull in a similar large crowd size its cited as "bad omen" for MLS. Perhaps its the effect of putting a 15,000 crowd into a 54,000 seat facility that makes people think this way.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Rudi,

People say the reason the dome can't be used for soccer is that it's a lousy place to watch a game. As from the stats, people will watch games there. Just as many people would show up at the dome for a game, and I'd say even more in the lousy weather months, than at the new stadium that being built.

Had the new joint been built I'd doubt they would have even played the game there and if they did, they would have not drawn as well as they did last night.

The point you're continually missing here is that MLSE would have to draw a hell of a lot more people to SkyDome to draw a profit, as their rent would be much higher, they'd have less of a cut (if any) from the concessions, parking, etc.

That, and they'd be trying to draw these larger crowds on Monday and Wednesday nights, as the prime dates would go to the Blue Jays and Argos first, with the MLS team left to pick up the scraps.

So while drawing 12K a game at SkyDome would be a financial disaster, the team could probably break even at the Ex Stadium with those kinds of numbers, and they'd have a better shot of doing it on a Saturday afternoon than a Wednesday night. Add to this the visual effect that 12-14k in a 20k stadium has compared to a 54k seat stadium, and really the new stadium is the only way to go for this type of venture.

[Metro]

Just a side note to Rudi's post, I believe MLS schedules generally consist of two games a week for each team with one game on Wednesday nights and one game on the weekend (preferably Saturday). I could be wrong, but if that's the case you're looking at a midweek home game every couple of weeks or so.

[Gian-Luca]

I think its mostly just one game a week, on weekends. Whether that changes for a year if Toronto is the only 2007 expansion team, we'll have to see.