Hurdle number 2!

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No, this is correct. All investor/owners of MLS own 51% of their teams, while the other 49% is owned by the league.

I thought he was talking in respect to the stadium when he mentioned the 50 per cent equity, not the actual team itself. As for that I thought MLS I/O bought 100 per cent into the league as a partner, sharing in losses and potential profits.

[Elias]

Yeah, the stadium, not the team.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

This is going to be so much fun watching this fail.

You are transparent as crystal. With that sentence you pretty well sum up what you are about.

Major league soccer has never failed in Toronto before (the NASL failed, but the NASL Blizzard didn't, and even Montreal wasn't around at the end of the NASL, unlike Toronto which actually survived the league folding around it), so it follows that it will be a sure failure this time round? Nice argument.

quote:

G-L as for NT games in Toronto, hosting them in the Rogers Centre and drawing less than 8K would be an embarrassement for the CSA

Anytime mens national team soccer draws 8K in a giant stadium it's an embarassment for Canadian soccer, as has been seen in Edmonton regularly since 1999 with the failure of the Canada Cup. I don't pick on Edmonton though, it would happen recently in any city with a stadium that has a giant seating capactiy. And that, my myopic Toronto-hating friend, is exactly why smaller venues are needed and why Rogers Centre isn't good as a soccer venue for Canadian soccer - thank you for proving my point!

[john tv]

It is true that the Blizzard had an average attendance of 11500 per gane. When I brought over Ajax the Blizzard made $145K profit. Clive Toye was very happy and in fact it was the best gate ever.I don't know what jail Karsten is in. I did like him very much and whatever he did wrong he helped soccer very much. At that time the Blizzard were doing well. We had a very well organized set up with the various large clubs around Torotno and these as we called them affiliated clubs sure enjoyed that relationship.Every game we had a different club that was highlighted and the club brass received all the appropiated attention.The media still was very reluctant to give us the correct attention.We had Steve Spice and at that time Rogers to do the games and Dave Bailey was the producer. I must admit that David never ever did a profile or any special on the Blizzard.He only concentrated on the game and our path never crossed.He simply refused to give it the Blizzard players the extra attention. City TV was much better at that.It all brings back some great memories,meeting Van Basten,Rijkard,Koeman, who all became close friends.Even Johan Cruyff pleaded with me to get him on the Ajax team as a guest player.At that time we set up some very close working relationships with the Dutch and following that we had the Dutch team over and they claim that the best time they had in 1994 was in Canda.So knowing this I will try to get the Duth over here for the opening of the stadium and I can assure you I will be succesfull.Just imagine to see Robin ,van Nistelrooy.If they ncome up here I will make sure that the Voyageurs will have great publicity. Anyway guys It all was a blast and I forecast these times will come back,however this time it will be so much bigger and better for Canadian soccer.Take it from me!

[Richard]

Now there's the kind of optimism I like :-)

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

You are transparent as crystal. With that sentence you pretty well sum up what you are about.

Major league soccer has never failed in Toronto before (the NASL failed, but the NASL Blizzard didn't, and even Montreal wasn't around at the end of the NASL, unlike Toronto which actually survived the league folding around it), so it follows that it will be a sure failure this time round? Nice argument.

Anytime mens national team soccer draws 8K in a giant stadium it's an embarassment for Canadian soccer, as has been seen in Edmonton regularly since 1999 with the failure of the Canada Cup. I don't pick on Edmonton though, it would happen recently in any city with a stadium that has a giant seating capactiy. And that, my myopic Toronto-hating friend, is exactly why smaller venues are needed and why Rogers Centre isn't good as a soccer venue for Canadian soccer - thank you for proving my point!

Unlike the SSS crackheads who think that an SSS is the answer to all previous failures I can see the writing on the wall. People in TO don't care about the Crew or the Rev's and won't come out in anymore numbers than they do to see the Impact play the Lynx. The MLS isn't the NFL.

At the best a simple concrete SSS bowl will capture the imagination of the casual fan for about 45 minutes and then they'll look at the product and think "This is ain't the EPL I see on TV- and GOD look at the crappy scoreboard!- This ain't the skydome- where's my instant replay and instant orgasm"

And god forbid school age children show up cause the real hardcore fans will bitch about the lack of singing and vow to never come back.

There is no soccer culture in Canada and without one, MAJOR league soccer will fail or bleed some silly large corporation dry for 3-4 years before they bail. ( as Molson did with the Montreal Manic).

As for the MNT games- you couldn't get more than 4000 crackers (I'm a cracker) out to simply suport Canada in Toronto. You need the 7000 (insert any ethnic group here) to make it look full.

I'm betting that this (MLS) won't even happen. As for the Argos, they're simply being smart and good for them. They just might get an even better deal from the good folks at Rogers.

[Guest Dave]

Why do you feel compelled to endlessly continue this argument Gman? What added value do you derive? Your position is well understood by everyone concerned. Now please go away.

[Canuck Oranje]

Some random points

1. If the Toronto of 1980 had the same demographic makeup as today and the same youth soccer base as today, the Blizzard would have averaged over 20,000 even in that horrible CNE Stadium, in my opinion. Toronto has been an enigma for some time when it comes to soccer. If anyone can crack the nut, its MLSE.

2. Looking at the money invested by US money men in the MLS over the last 10 years is as irrelevant as saying that Pfiser was throwing away its money when investing research dollars in Viagra for many years. After all, it wasn't known at the time that the most of the research was done that the drug had a welcome side effect and it was that side effect that brought it its fame and fortune. Yes MLSE is taking a risk; but, a lot of the development work for the MLS is already done and the money spent.

3. The MLS has benefitted from the global exposure provided by ESPN. In fact, I was surprised that I could watch MLS from the residence I shared in Sao Paulo last month. Global exposure leads to an impression of world-class (and MLS shows ok on TV).

4. When people say that you need to have someone who knows soccer to be an owner, what does that mean? Does it mean, having someone willing to lose millions? Or is there something special about the business management of soccer that is different from all other sports? Is it more important to know soccer than to know the professional sports business culture in Toronto?

5. Attendance at the games of professional clubs is unrelated to the attendance at national team games in my opinion. I remember watching some of the European WCQ matches on FSWC and seeing a lot of unfilled stadiums. Also, If you look at Brazil, they rarely play in Sao Paulo and Rio and this is partly because there is a fear that if they played in Morumbi or Maracana, the place would be almost empty. I know shocking but true when you realize that a match Corinthians/SP, Corinthians/Palmeiras or SP/Palmeiras at Morumbi would attract about 60,000. All those so called ethnic soccer supporters in Toronto still live in Toronto and would still likely support a well-managed and competitive Toronto team.

6. The purchase of private boxes has nothing to do with a company's interest in soccer. The purchase of a private box has to do with the company perception of whether it would be something that would interest its clients or the executives of its parent company. The fact that the stadium will be new combined with the exposure provided globally by ESPN and that the club would be managed professionally by MLSE creates the conditions for the sale of private boxes. After all, executives of Nortel would not take Nokia executives (with their $3,000 suits) to watch a Lynx game at Centennial. In many respects, a downtown location works better for this too.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Dave

Why do you feel compelled to endlessly continue this argument Gman? What added value do you derive? Your position is well understood by everyone concerned. Now please go away.

Cause I can and I live in a free country. And in some respect it's a solid position.

Why can't we simply accept the role of the game in our culure. That it's a great game to play and that through a shrinking world media we have access to the best games worldwide.

I can't see how one single MLS team will change soccer's role in the sporting scene (behind womens curling and women's hockey amoung

others)or improve our national team.

we need to do better at the U-15-19 ages. We need to get at least 40 kids a year into the existing European club systems.

How will our national team improve by having Pat Onstad playing in Toronto rather than San Jose? Or woule Saltari be better served playing for the Toronto Sparkles than in the EPL? Would a 15 year be better served learning the game in Liverpool or with the Ottawa Fury?? And if the Impact roster was good enough they'd be playing in the MLS now.

The future isn't SSS or an MLS team. It's playing on a field near you now. And he's probably getting crappy training and playing against guys who couldn't shine his boots. And in long run, he won't get better, but worse.

And in 2010- an MLS experienced player won't be better than a guy whose spent his developemental years playing with a top Mexican club or a European based club. But lets keep the mantra up. A SSS will solve everything. As they say "It's all be done before".

It's okay to support the game in a country that simply doesn't care.

As for the ESPN Brazil exposure angle..I wonder what percentage of the population in Brazil get digital TV in their slums. I wonder what the MLS rating on ESPN compared to Women's NACAR or poker down south is.

I remember when the Senators used the whole name exposure game. They actually said it was worth at least 100 million a year to Ottawa. But they were hard pressed to show one single company that had invested in the city due to a NHL hockey team. And the Impact were laughed at when they tried to tie the club to tourists flocking to Montreal to see USL games.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Unlike the SSS crackheads who think that an SSS is the answer to all previous failures I can see the writing on the wall.

Is that the inner wall of the asylum that you've been committed to?

quote:

People in TO don't care about the Crew or the Rev's and won't come out in anymore numbers than they do to see the Impact play the Lynx. The MLS isn't the NFL.

People in TO have never heard of the Crew or the Rev's. Or the Impact. Or the Lynx. They will hear of the other MLS teams if Toronto MLS happens. Anyone who compares the Lynx ownership, media clout and marketing ability to that of MLSE doesn't deserve to be taken seriously and is just wasting our time. Which indeed you are.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Is that the inner wall of the asylum that you've been committed to?

People in TO have never heard of the Crew or the Rev's. Or the Impact. Or the Lynx. They will hear of the other MLS teams if Toronto MLS happens. Anyone who compares the Lynx ownership, media clout and marketing ability to that of MLSE doesn't deserve to be taken seriously and is just wasting our time. Which indeed you are.

can't attack the message, so attack the messenger. What has MLSE ever managed besides the easy money Leafs?

[Canuck Oranje]

What does MLSE manage?

1. Yes, it owns the Toronto Maple Leafs

2. It owns the Toronto Raptors.

3. It owns and manages the Air Canada Centre (that is separate from the Toronto Maple Leafs)

4. It owns the Toronto Marlies (AHL franchise).

And doesn't this sound familiar? This is an article once on canoe.ca in June 2005 but not there now.

OSHAWA, Ont., (CP) - Construction has started on a sports and entertainment complex that will serve as the future home of the Ontario Hockey League's Oshawa Generals.

Oshawa Mayor John Gray, first-round draft pick John Tavares and former Generals Nathan Perrott and Rob Pearson were on hand for the groundbreaking ceremony Wednesday.

Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment will operate the facility and manage event programming.

"We're extremely excited to be involved with the project and look forward to operating this landmark Oshawa facility," MLSE executive vice-president Bob Hunter said in a release.

The $45-million facility is expected to open in November 2006.

[RS]

G-Man, let me ask you, where on this board has one single person said that a single Toronto MLS team and SSS will be the answer to all of the problems plaguing Canadian soccer?

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The future isn't SSS or an MLS team. It's playing on a field near you now. And he's probably getting crappy training and playing against guys who couldn't shine his boots. And in long run, he won't get better, but worse.

I'll agree with the later part of that of that statement. Almost absolutely. The 1st bit is up to continual debate.

There is no nationwide excellence program. The CSA isn't in bed with the provincial federations promoting elite leagues, or coaching development, or footballing infastructure. At least in any meaningful way or any way which has been a successful to date.

Don't know why. Could be the CSA is stretched too thin and so isn't taking itself too seriously and is operating as a slightly glorified rec. sport association. Could be the CSA is too poor to offer the provincial associations a carrot to move towards a common goal. Don't know. Plenty of blame at all levels. From the grassroots up to the top.

But if a dozen kids who's previous goal with football was a simple love of the game, competition, and maybe a school scolarship find a paying job in Toronto than all the better. That's exactly a dozen more paying jobs than were out there before. What's the harm in having more of your kids playing at a higher level than they would have otherwise played without MLS? That kid who's mucked about in inferior leagues all those years may finaly get his chance to polish up and shine.

[Canuck Oranje]

I guess I was misunderstood as to why I raised the ESPN in Brazil example. Aside from the simple facts that ESPN is not digital in Brazil and that it is highly likely that many in the favelas of Sao Paulo do have access to ESPN are irrelevant, ESPN is carried throughout the world. If a Canadian company does business around the world, it will want to be able to entertain clients and other foreign executives in a manner that would be enjoyed by them. It is highly unlikely that an executive from Hong Kong (for example) would enjoy watching the Blue Jays; but, it is possible that they would be familiar with the MLS if they enjoyed soccer and they would understand the game. That helps in selling season tickets and private boxes to corporations. Who does that better than anyone in Canada and are often criticized for it? MLSE...

Another fact is that there are more kids and adults playing soccer in Canada today than there was playing basketball when the Raptors began or baseball when the Blue Jays began.

Getting kids playing in Europe involves more than just having talent. Work Permits are not always easy to get. Cultural differences for Canadian kids are not always easy to deal with. And there are cultural differences. Providing a professional organization in a league that has recognition across North America can't hurt kids wanting to play.

I don't think anyone thinks the MLS is a perfect option. But it is a step better than where we are now and it helps get a stadium built that most agree needs to be there.

[john tv]

Here we are we have a soccer stadium.The best possible sportsgroup,governmnet support,the CSA, MLS,the FIFA, all we need and here we go again is the raccoon media.I like to think that the Rogers boys will take care of these guys. I really wonder if they will show up at the media conferences,the MAcGowan's,Hunts,Cox,Pjerkens,Marsden and we know them all.I hope to see the sports talkshows include now a soccer specialist,that soccer becomes the in sport and that we finally regain our position we lost many years ago.I would like to credit the CSA for an outstanding job in pulling this thing together. We can thank the folks in Edmonton for giving the FIFA one of their most memorable days in their history.It was the girls who changed it all for us,as I forecasted 28 years ago that the girls would change our destiny.This thing let to the awarding of the u-20 tournamnet,the stadium ,MLSM the MLS,government as I said hopefully a 180 degree in the Toronto media.

Knowing what I know and have experienced all these years,all is falling into the right place.I hope that our members realize what the CSA has accomplished for all of us and what this means to our girls programs and boys programs,our national teams and the coming of this exciting soccer world to Canada.

So,all we need is a change in the media attitude and everything else will follow very nicely for Canadian soccer.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

The media still was very reluctant to give us the correct attention.We had Steve Spice and at that time Rogers to do the games and Dave Bailey was the producer. I must admit that David never ever did a profile or any special on the Blizzard.He only concentrated on the game and our path never crossed.He simply refused to give it the Blizzard players the extra attention. City TV was much better at that.

John,

This again shows your incredible lack of understanding of anything to do with television. It's ironic that you choose "JohnTV" as your handle here on Voyageurs considering how little you actually really know.

It's a matter of resources. My great friend Steve Spice (may he continue to rest in peace) was a wonderful man and a tremendous sports producer and it was he who gave me such wonderful opportunities in my early days in the business but he wasn't a soccer man.

Back when the Blizzard joined the NSL, he helped me get about a dozen matches on the air during that season. Those were the days when he had the series "Sportsweek". At about that same time, he put together a very succesfull discussion program about the future of pro-soccer in Canada. You may even have been part of it.

Due to TSN shutting us out of CSL coverage although I did do a feature on the original amateur draft that took place at the old Airport Skyline, we were forced to concentrate on the National Soccer League which we did for several years. We weren't allowed back into the CSL fold until the last season when TSN abandoned the league. We did half-a-dozen games or so including leg one of the Winnipeg-North York cup final which we managed to ship to Winnipeg for air on their cable system the night before TSN showed the second leg.

Let's look at their APSL tenure for a moment. Rogers was the only TV company to do any complete game - five camera coverage of any team in the entire league. When the APSL highlight show aired on Prime in the USA, it was often 50% our coverage of the Toronto Blizzard from Varsity Stadium.

Hell! We also did that joke of a match when the Blizzard played Hazzard of Jamaica.

We even "gave" our packaged game tapes to Telelatino for airing on their network. To complain about our coverage of the Blizzard is myopic and ignorant but why would expect anything less (or more) from you.

In regards to our friends at City-TV, they had a helluva lot more resources to do these things than Rogers did at that time. My mind boggles that you can't see the difference between community television in the early 90's and a full-fledged, fully staffed daily news program on a commercial television station.

In regards to your time as PR director of the Blizzard, I'll just say "the less said the better".

db

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

can't attack the message, so attack the messenger.

Wrong again. Can and already have attacked the message. You have conveniently ignored the previous points including the most fundamental one of all - never has major league pro soccer ever failed in Toronto, yet you are using this as an argument for a certain case that it will fail again with no actual basis whatsoever, except inaccurate attendance statistics & a ridiculous comparison between the Lynx ownership & the MLSE, which nobody in their right minds would take seriously. You don't like getting attacked? Then don't start the attacking yourself, as you did by calling other people in the debate "crackheads".

[G-Man]

?Major League Pro Soccer? Are we talking about the NASL? Want to know what NBC had on today instead of the MLS play-offs?

Indoor motor cross.

Soccer in North America has never been Major League. The NASL failed 20 years ago. Toronto has not supported anything soccer related in those 20 years.

ANd you are a SSS Crackhead. Period.

[john tv]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

John,

This again shows your incredible lack of understanding of anything to do with television. It's ironic that you choose "JohnTV" as your handle here on Voyageurs considering how little you actually really know.

It's a matter of resources. My great friend Steve Spice (may he continue to rest in peace) was a wonderful man and a tremendous sports producer and it was he who gave me such wonderful opportunities in my early days in the business but he wasn't a soccer man.

Back when the Blizzard joined the NSL, he helped me get about a dozen matches on the air during that season. Those were the days when he had the series "Sportsweek". At about that same time, he put together a very succesfull discussion program about the future of pro-soccer in Canada. You may even have been part of it.

Due to TSN shutting us out of CSL coverage although I did do a feature on the original amateur draft that took place at the old Airport Skyline, we were forced to concentrate on the National Soccer League which we did for several years. We weren't allowed back into the CSL fold until the last season when TSN abandoned the league. We did half-a-dozen games or so including leg one of the Winnipeg-North York cup final which we managed to ship to Winnipeg for air on their cable system the night before TSN showed the second leg.

Let's look at their APSL tenure for a moment. Rogers was the only TV company to do any complete game - five camera coverage of any team in the entire league. When the APSL highlight show aired on Prime in the USA, it was often 50% our coverage of the Toronto Blizzard from Varsity Stadium.

Hell! We also did that joke of a match when the Blizzard played Hazzard of Jamaica.

We even "gave" our packaged game tapes to Telelatino for airing on their network. To complain about our coverage of the Blizzard is myopic and ignorant but why would expect anything less (or more) from you.

In regards to our friends at City-TV, they had a helluva lot more resources to do these things than Rogers did at that time. My mind boggles that you can't see the difference between community television in the early 90's and a full-fledged, fully staffed daily news program on a commercial television station.

In regards to your time as PR director of the Blizzard, I'll just say "the less said the better".

I* thought at t6hat time that you were a little pompuous jerk and you have prooven to be just that

\db

[/q

David you never ever came to me for any stories on the players. I tried but you were not interested at all. I tried Steve to get involved and again he referred me back to you. You were extremely narrowminded and living i your own pompuous world.In my time you did dick all for the Blizzard. Even the colour commentator was terrible.As I undwerstand it you tried to get involved in amateur soccer , but my sources tell me you were a complete total failure. You should have called me I might have helped you , you jerk.

uote]

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

?Major League Pro Soccer? Are we talking about the NASL? Want to know what NBC had on today instead of the MLS play-offs?

Indoor motor cross.

Soccer in North America has never been Major League. The NASL failed 20 years ago. Toronto has not supported anything soccer related in those 20 years.

ANd you are a SSS Crackhead. Period.

Ok we heard you, soccer is a dead sport. Not worth supporting, there are no fans, might as well just scap it all and get it out our sight. But one question, why do bother following and posting on this forum?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Let me see if my memory is correct, what region of the country have you not yet slagged? I even recall recently a post where you managed to take poke at PEI. Do you have anything else to say that is soccer related? Or shall we wait for what negative things that you can conjure up about Nunavut.

[Guest Dave]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Ok we heard you, soccer is a dead sport. Not worth supporting, there are no fans, might as well just scap it all and get it out our sight. But one question, why do bother following and posting on this forum?

Answer: G-Man = Beast with a new ISP.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Want to know what NBC had on today instead of the MLS play-offs?

Want to know why?

Because today's SJ-LA game was on ESPN.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Want to know what NBC had on today instead of the MLS play-offs?

Want to know why?

Because today's SJ-LA game was on ESPN.