MLS ancmnt re: Toronto expansion Oct 11+, Stadium

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by sstackho

BTW, does FIFA have anything to say about a league covering two countries? I know they have previously spoken against Scottish teams joining England leagues. Of course, there are Welsh teams in England's league. And a New Zealand team in the new Australian A-League.

Just curious...

They have nothing to say. MLS has a free had in North America, as Canada has no league and none in the pipeline.

[Gordon]

I don't think this is intended as a kick in the ass for the governments as many are suggesting. So far, only government money is actually on the table. I suspect that the push is as much a result of the gap between what they have (the government Money) and what they need (naming rights and private investment). It should be clear that MLSE is not prepared to make that gap up solely and I think virtually everyone on this board has expressed reservation about the amount estimated for naming rights, especially since that is normally an operating revenue that is apparently being earmarked as collateral for a loan for a capital expenditure.

This actually has the look of some desperation to me. A last minute act to try to leverage more private money by coming as close to a guarantee as can be made without MLSE actually ponying up the expansion fee. Methinks there are no significant private partners aside from MLSE.

The real concern to me is that MLSE is clearly a company of some clout in Toronto, and if they are not prepared to make up the difference or can not find a partner in TO, then I suspect that either MLSE does not have a lot of faith in this venture or the margins are such that they can not make any money putting in $15-20 million in capital. If they can't, who else will?

Prior to reading this announcement I was about 55-45 that the stadium would get built. Now I am quite pessimistic about the whole thing. I hope I am wrong, we desperately need the infrasturcture, but I see this as a reason for concern rather than a reason for optimism.

[Jeremy Loome]

Having covered municipal politics for a lot of years for various newspapers, I'd suggest this deadline is about one thing and one thing only: getting the greenlight from TO council at the next meeting. Most large urban centres do not have 44 councillors. That many potential votes awry makes it much harder to get a deal done. So they're trying to line up the fence sitters quickly by saying "now or never."

Municipal government is always -- ALWAYS -- the biggest impediment to urban development, not the other levels of government (even when it's using legislation from other levels of government, such as enviro impact study necessity, to cause the delays). As someone else here has noted, the feds and province have already committed their money, so there's only one thing left that this could be aimed at, and that's kicking TO council into line.

The trouble with that is they'll probably follow through on it if this gets held up Oct. 26. But there's no reason, given the pitifully small amount of metro investment required, to think that's going to happen. I think it's just a safety valve, that's all.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Prior to reading this announcement I was about 55-45 that the stadium would get built. Now I am quite pessimistic about the whole thing. I hope I am wrong, we desperately need the infrasturcture, but I see this as a reason for concern rather than a reason for optimism.

Really?

For me it was always a question of what type of stadium was going to be built. The CSA have a wish list, and I expect it's a structure/facility above and beyond a simple pitch and grandstands. Less moneys mean more items on the wish list getting scratched off, simple as that. (Did the CSA have to get in bed with MLS to build the type of stadium in Toronto that they wanted but had to sell out the 'Caps and Impact while doing it? That's another debate already much travelled...)

As to the MLS theatre we had the other day I'm putting it down to a few overlapping plot lines. One of them includes the "this deal is done city council so hurry up and try not to fu'k it up" but yeah, it also includes an MLS/MLSE/CSA private fund raising push.

You know, the "hey, look who's on board with all this why aren't you?" kinda crap.

What ever the reasons, conspiracy Cheeta notwithstanding, I hope it works. Kinda looking forward to a trip to Toronto in the not so distant future.

[sstackho]

Where is this "Exposition Park" that the MLS commissioner is so excited about for the stadium? This sounds like a new location to throw in with the others for consideration!

[beachesl]

Toronto deputy mayor optimistic about soccer-specific stadium

Updated at 13:21 on October 12, 2005, EST.

TORONTO (CP) - The future of a soccer-specific stadium is now in Toronto's hands and the deputy mayor says he is optimistic Major League Soccer's Oct. 31 deadline can be met.

MLS commissioner Dan Garber set the date Tuesday, saying the stadium had to be sorted if an expansion team was to be in place in 2007. Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment is poised to pay more than $10 million US for the expansion team - and help fund the stadium - if all the red tape is taken care of.

"It is very much doable," Deputy Mayor Joe Pantalone said in an interview Wednesday. "It's not 100 per cent, of course, because when you're negotiating you want to make sure everybody walks away with a deal with a smile.

"But I'm very optimistic that the deadline can be met. And I'm also optimistic that once Exhibition Place and city staff recommend the deal, most councillors will ask questions as they should, but at the end of the day will approve it, given the mayor's commitment, mine and the need for it."

There are several hurdles that still have to be cleared before the Exhibition Place site is confirmed and the city loosens its hold on $9.5 million Cdn in stadium funding.

The Exhibition Place board of governors, which will probably meet Oct. 19 on the issue, has to approve the project. It also has to get the green light from city council's policy and finance committee on Oct. 20 and then from the full council (44 councillors and the mayor) on Oct. 26.

"I think it will carry," Pantalone said. "Whether it carries by one vote or 15 votes, I do not know. But my expectation is it will carry."

"I think we need it," he added. "Soccer is the world's most favourite sport. It is the most favourite sport of Canadian youth (in terms of participation), up to and including high school. . . . I think it's am embarrassment that the Greater Toronto Area, with six million people, with a sport so popular, does not have a soccer stadium.

"Given that, the City of Toronto - at least for the mayor and myself - we'll be recommending to the city council at this meeting on Oct. 26 that we put in $9.5 million of city money towards this $60-million-plus facility."

The city would also provide the land for the stadium, whose budget is around $62 million at the moment.

The stadium design calls for 20,000 seats with the ability to expand by another 10,000 seats.

The city also has to negotiate a management deal on running the stadium - "Generally we're not in the business of running sports teams," Pantalone said - with MLSE probably running the venue. Talks on that subject are ongoing with MLSE and the Canadian Soccer Association.

The Vancouver Whitecaps, meanwhile, are expected to announce plans for their own stadium at a news conference Thursday. The Montreal Impact have already announced a new home for 2007.

Pantalone is involved in the Toronto stadium issue on several counts. He doubles as chair of the Exhibition Place board and the site falls in his ward of Trinity-Spadina.

He is in favour of an "urban stadium," just like the Rogers Centre, rather than a "suburban" venue and cites the available transportation as a major selling point.

The MLS deadline puts some pressure on the various partners involved in the stadium project to settle their differences and get a shovel in the ground. The stadium has been an on-again, off-again affair with sites shelved at both the University of Toronto and York University.

More recently there has been disagreement between various levels of government involved in helping fund the project on whether it should be built on the lakefront at Exhibition Place or in the northern part of the city at Downsview Park.

The federal government, which owns the Downsview land but now seems to have signed off on Exhibition Place, has pledged $27 million with another $8 million from the provincial government. If the city provides it $9.65 million, that leaves a little more than $17 million needed.

Part of that shortfall will be made up in selling naming rights to the stadium, a process that is already under way.

MLSE is ready to contribute the rest although it won't say how much that is other than to say "it's substantial."

Should the stadium end up at Exhibition Place, it will have come full circle. The CSA first pitched the idea of a soccer-specific stadium - an $83-million plan for a 30,000-seat venue - in July 2003. But it had little more than an initial stadium design at the time, plus a plan to ask various levels of government for a total of $62.5 million.

The 12-team MLS added two new franchises this season: Real Salt Lake and FC Chivas, which plays out of Carson, Calif. Those expansion franchises cost $10 million US apiece.

Garber said the expansion price tag this time is "slightly higher."

The league is looking for a second expansion team in 2007, with the leading candidates Cleveland, Philadelphia, Houston, Milwaukee and St. Louis, Garber said.

Exhibition Place is located opposite Ontario Place on the lakefront. It used to be home to the Toronto Argos and Blue Jays at Exhibition Stadium, and currently houses the American Hockey League Marlies at the Ricoh Coliseum.

It is also home to the annual CNE summer fair.

[DoyleG]

quote:Pantalone is involved in the Toronto stadium issue on several counts. He doubles as chair of the Exhibition Place board and the site falls in his ward of Trinity-Spadina.

Looks like Joey is trying to deep throat the trough.

[john tv]

The media onslaught is on let by the Toronto Star,are we surprised, I am not,kind of forecasted this.Just read it and than read between the line,it says we don't want soccer and never have.Get lost. They even are pulling a fast one by linking gambling and the MLS etc.I don't know what our city fathers are going to decide,but according to the Star, garbage comes first.I guess we are going to be stuck with baseball in the summer.

[An Observer]

Here's Perkin's articles...it continually amazes me how such people are employed as journalists...let the idiots of the world unite.

Build it and they won't come

Soccer stadium a waste of our cash

DAVE PERKINS

Promoters of professional soccer have gone from merely holding out their hands to putting a gun in them.

Imagine this: Toronto taxpayers are being blackmailed in a pro soccer shakedown. We're getting a deadline to provide a brand new stadium for a business that has gone broke in this town in its many previous attempts. This is insane.

Imagine, further, the nerve of these people, starting with one Don Garber, commissioner of something called Major League Soccer, who issued an or-else deadline this week. Either the locals pony up a 20,000-seat soccer stadium by Hallowe'en or his league will be forced to sell its next $10 million (U.S.) franchise elsewhere. As much as it, you know, pains him to have to miss out on this great market.

Garber clearly was emboldened to go public with his blackmail by his potential partners at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, who make this kind of thing common business practice. (Look at the Leaf-Raptor ticket requirements.)

MLSE would be willing to help out the cause by buying an MLS franchise, provided somebody else — meaning you and me — comes up with at least $50 million of the $60 million or so that a stadium will cost. MLSE reportedly will provide $8 million or 10 million of the stadium cost.

One is entitled to ask, since MLSE has done such a bang-up job competitively as proprietor of both the Maple Leafs and, especially, the Raptors, why it also wishes to run a soccer team, especially given the history of pro soccer going flop-flop-flop in this city for decades. It's not a bad question.

But what MLSE wants, of course, is control of yet another publicly financed playpen — having already swiped main tenancy of the Ricoh Coliseum, for which the city remains on the hook for millions. If it needs to waste at least $10 million (U.S.) on a soccer franchise, plus a couple of years of operating losses until the team folds to get it, then no matter. It's a nice tax write-off against the huge profits generated by the hockey and basketball teams.

Speaking of MLSE, did anyone notice they're now corporate hand-holders with something called PokerRoom.tv, an on-line poker outfit? What in hell is this now? Are they going to put Leaf logos on the cards? Is it a minor cash grab, or is MLSE getting its foot in the gambling door, just so it can start lobbying for a casino when the time comes, as the time surely will? MLSE, even its many apologists will admit by now, does nothing that doesn't promise significant dollar signs beside it, sooner or later. (Regarding this poker stuff, fans have been promised an in-house card game called Leafs Texas Hold `Em. Given the team's historical trends to clutch-and-grab hockey, it might be redundant to call something Maple Leafs Hold `Em.)

Anyway, we were talking soccer and it has been stated here many times, but still bears repeating: If pro soccer is such a can't-miss gig financially, as the great game's local supporters constantly allege, then let soccer build its own stadium and reap all the promised rewards. Instead of always begging taxpayers for money, why not get all the private capital necessary and make themselves rich?

This is about the time soccer executives write emails pointing out how many children play the game. Yes, those numbers are impressive, but they have never translated into tickets actually sold on a consistent basis, the more relevant point.

The Canadian Soccer Association and its head, Kevan Pipe, keep embarrassing themselves over this new stadium. First it was at Varsity, then up at York University — hey, whatever happened to that Sorbara Group, anyway? — and then Vaughan was announcing it. Next it was going to Downsview and now here it comes again for the Exhibition grounds.

The federal and provincial governments have been along for $35 million worth of the ride. The city allegedly is offering another $9.5 million of our money — does someone's nephew need a job? — and MLSE is willing to invest a little, too. Now Don Garber making threats unless we come up with more and do it right away, too.

Government should turn and run, rather than surrender another public facility to MLSE. The city, especially, should concentrate on picking up the garbage. There's plenty of it on this deal.

Additional articles by Dave Perkins

link:

PerkinsStarOct13

[Elias]

Now somebody remind me again of the benefit of the Garber gab-fest the other day?

The truth is, everything Perkins said is correct. And a lot more people agree with him, than not.

Conspiracy theory? I doubt MLSE really wants a soccer team. The numbers make no sense. A new stadium is really not needed for concerts or anything else. Maybe MLSE did this on purpose knowing full well the reaction of a lot of people will be negative and city hall will chicken out.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Now somebody remind me again of the benefit of the Garber gab-fest the other day?

The truth is, everything Perkins said is correct. And a lot more people agree with him, than not.

Conspiracy theory? I doubt MLSE really wants a soccer team. The numbers make no sense. A new stadium is really not needed for concerts or anything else. Maybe MLSE did this on purpose knowing full well the reaction of a lot of people will be negative and city hall will chicken out.

I figure that MLSE wants a soccer team no less than an AHL hockey club or maybe even a basketball team and maybe even an NHL hockey team. They'll invest if they think there is value to doing so. So what! the end results is professional soccer in Toronto. The key point is that the game in Toronto and in Canada benefits as a whole from their investment.

As far as Perkins, its pure hyprocrisy. His crusade is all about the fact that the soccer season runs in parallel with the baseball season. It has nothing to do with a ethical aspect of public funding of privately managed sport ventures. Notice how he he seldom reserves the same venom towards Rogers. Yet how is Rogers any better of a corporate citizen than MLSE.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Okay so lets say they cover the annual operating costs, besides MLS, what exactly will this stadium host? UofT football with 500 people a game? Youth soccer? So the city has to take into consideration 3 years when MLSE gives up on MLS, who will pay for the stadium?

That's still no indication of a huge financial hit for the City and it also leaves aside the money the City will make from stadium usage, if not directly then indirectly when loads of people from abroad come to Toronto to watch the U20 World Cup.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Loome

Having covered municipal politics for a lot of years for various newspapers, I'd suggest this deadline is about one thing and one thing only: getting the greenlight from TO council at the next meeting. Most large urban centres do not have 44 councillors. That many potential votes awry makes it much harder to get a deal done. So they're trying to line up the fence sitters quickly by saying "now or never."

Municipal government is always -- ALWAYS -- the biggest impediment to urban development, not the other levels of government (even when it's using legislation from other levels of government, such as enviro impact study necessity, to cause the delays). As someone else here has noted, the feds and province have already committed their money, so there's only one thing left that this could be aimed at, and that's kicking TO council into line.

The trouble with that is they'll probably follow through on it if this gets held up Oct. 26. But there's no reason, given the pitifully small amount of metro investment required, to think that's going to happen. I think it's just a safety valve, that's all.

I think you are spot on with this post. It's all down to 44 councillors. Its no secret that MLSE will be making up the difference in the cash and the naming rights for a stadium can't be publicly announced until after a stadium has been officially announced - I suspect that is in place as well.

[Free kick]

More hypocracy/contradictions from Perkins. He rants on erroneously about failed pro soccer ventures of the past of which he provides no supporting evidence. Yet, did we hear any of the same arguments from him when the Leafs decided to have try go at AHL hockey in this market after the departure of the Roadrunners and the farm club in newmarket from a few years ago?

I liked him better when he was wrestling aligators on Mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

The truth is, everything Perkins said is correct. And a lot more people agree with him, than not.

The proof of which is where.........?

I don't know anybody that agrees with Perkins, outside of yourself apparently. I know tons of people who disagree with him & want this stadium built. Even the debates recently in the Toronto Star letter pages were about where the stadium should go, not over whether there should be one.

[Jarrek]

Good journalists need to back up their theories with FACTS.

Perkins didn't even mention the 2007 WYC in his article, nor the numerous international friendlies at the Skydome this year.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Good journalists need to back up their theories with FACTS.

Perkins didn't even mention the 2007 WYC in his article, nor the numerous international friendlies at the Skydome this year.

No offense but I don't recall 'numerous international friendlies at the Skydome this year' so why should Perkins?

And, as so painfully acknowledged by the daft Edmontonian soccer movers and shakers, bums in seats at glamour international events do not translate into bums in seats for a season of less glamourous North American pro soccer.

Good luck to the folks in Toronto in pulling this deal off. I am not losing sleep over my Toronto MLS roster picks given the comedy of errors it has been over the last 2 years.

[zacRWE]

Wouldent/couldent the Canadian Rugby Association be a tenant at this new stadium. We have a decent Rugby squad and playing at some high school in Hamilton is terrible.

also, womens soccer and mens national soccer (whatever age).

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by zacRWE

Wouldent/couldent the Canadian Rugby Association be a tenant at this new stadium. We have a decent Rugby squad and playing at some high school in Hamilton is terrible.

also, womens soccer and mens national soccer (whatever age).

I thought the Mens rugby squad is based out of vancouver? They can play at Kerfoots proposed new barn.

[john tv]

It is simply amazing how the media is trying to manipulate with a sinister purpose cetain issues including soccer. I am even more amazed that no one is taking a stand and just keep on taking on the chin.Anyway it seems that this wc tournament is a none issue with him and the exposure to the rest of the world is also a non issue. I suppose the correct thing to do is to contact all the councelors involved and try to convince them to vote for this stadium.

In the meantime I can't but regretably say that this is a nasty "I told you so" and I hope I am dead wrong.

[juaninho]

I submitted a reply to the sports editor regarding Perkins' idiocy. I encourage others to do the same.

[Massive Attack]

I don't question MLSE's involvement in this at all. What will most likely happen is that MLSE will sign a long term 'lease' agreement with the city to run the stadium. This will allow the City to ensure it will not be stuck with any operating costs of the building, and it will allow MLSE to control another entertainment building in T.O. Personally, I think MLSE wants to operate the stadium more than they want to run an MLS team. This will allow them another building in the lucrative Toronto concert market, plus it will give them direct competition with the outdoor venue across the street (the Molson Amphitheatre at Ontario Place).

As for the City passing the last hurdle, it would be pretty stupid for them to let this deal pass. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Oh yeah, to anyone complaining about government money being involved, where were your compaints for the Ricoh Centre, the Rexall Centre (for tennis at York U.) or even the Olympics? The fact of the matter is, when it comes to most sports that aren't hockey in this country, it often takes government involvement to help get things done. If this weren't the case, most sporting facitities across the nation wouldn't even be here today.

The Air Canada Centre in Toronto is the exception. Most major sporting venues in this nation were built using gov't funds. That's just the way it is.

[Gian-Luca]

Keep in mind that Perkins article was published at the bottom of page 6 of the Sports section of the Star, where few people will notice it. Not exactly front page stuff the way the other MLS in Toronto news has been (occasionally on the front page of the whole paper). I think that speaks to how much creedence to give his piece.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by zacRWE

Wouldent/couldent the Canadian Rugby Association be a tenant at this new stadium. We have a decent Rugby squad and playing at some high school in Hamilton is terrible.

also, womens soccer and mens national soccer (whatever age).

If the stadium has FieldTurf, not a chance. CSA and MLSE may not want to get embarassed.

As for the MLSE ticket policy, the same is already seen for the Biz clients at the HDC. They are now required to buy tickets for both the Galaxy and Chivas USA.

Should also be noted that MLSE will be running the new sports and entertainment complex in Oshawa even though they did put any money into it.

Taxpayers will be left on the hook knowing that MLSE will fold the team if they don't get the return they wanted.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I don't know anybody that agrees with Perkins, outside of yourself apparently. I know tons of people who disagree with him & want this stadium built. Even the debates recently in the Toronto Star letter pages were about where the stadium should go, not over whether there should be one.

If this is the case, then why would MLSE & MLS feel the need to kick T.O. City Council in the ass as some suggest is the case? I think you are right that the debate has moved past whether to build one onto where to build one however, hence my earlier post on the motives of MLS.