name your Canadian MLS roster

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The best thing that could happen with a TO franchise would for the team to negotiate a new rule for the MLS: Canadians will no longer be considered foreign anywhere in the league, and Americans will not be considered so in the new TO team and any other future team in Canada.

I have a feeling that the owners of US MLS clubs will be the ones demanding that. With existing rules applying to the cnd team in regards to foreigners it would give the cnd club a big advantage. expecially if they add franchises as the ratio of available talent to the number of clubs would tilt to the canadian club's favour. the talent on the us teams would become more diluted.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I have a feeling that the owners of US MLS clubs will be the ones demanding that. With existing rules applying to the cnd team in regards to foreigners it would give the cnd club a big advantage. expecially if they add franchises as the ratio of available talent to the number of clubs would tilt to the canadian club's favour. the talent on the us teams would become more diluted.

It is going to be interesting to see how a Canadian expansion team will effect the league's setup in terms of rules and regulations. Player acquisition mechanisms like allocations, trading and the draft could be impacted heavily by a Canadian team playing under inverse roster rules.

I'm sure the owner of CD Chivas USA would like to see the US player rule scrapped in favour of a North American designation for Canadian, American and Mexican players. I wonder if the CSA would be in favour of such a relaxing of the rules. I'm positive the Canadian players would be in favour of it.

However, part of me also believes that MLS would go for the inverse rules simply because I doubt they fear a Canadian team having virtual exclusive access to the Canadian player pool. On the other hand part of me also believes that the I/O of the Canadian team would go for the idea of allowing US players to be considered domestic players on the Canadian team without the opposite being true for the rest of the league. That is, if the I/O could even legally negotiate such a provision.

At the end of the day does anyone think more Canadians will end up in MLS with open access to the entire league (with allowance for Americans on the Canadian team, of course) or with access to a single team playing with a virtually exclusive Canadian roster?

I find this stuff all fascinating to ponder.

[An Observer]

I have said it before but my belief is that the Canadian entry will start with initially a roster where Canadians are seen as domestic players under the MLS rules and all others including the Americans will be considered foreigners on the Toronto side. The reason is that for immigration and employment law purposes you will not be able to give any preference to Americans in Canada and that this will be the most easily sellable idea in the beginning both to Americans (ie. its not deluting their talent pool and adding to it by having an extra side full of Canadians) and the new Toronto owners can rap themselves in the Canadian flag for marketing purposes. AS the MLS expands to Montreal and Vancouver (which I beleive it will as in my opinion there is no way that they would contemplate such a large investment in stadiums if they were planning on staying in USL Div 1), it will become apparent that it does not make sense to restrict players in Canada to only 3 teams and the rest in the US to 12 or more. Also, I honestly believe it will favour the Canadian teams as our talent pool is no where as deep as they US but I think we could quite easily have 3 teams in keeping quite well against 12 or more American ones....which would mean the US owners would want to lift the barrier themselves. This will be good news for Canadian players as we will not just have the equivalent of 3 sides in the MLS but more like 4 or 5 in total.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Regarding perceptions of the Canadian talent pool, I would imagine that in the US most fans think it is fairly strong. After all, one of the players touted for league MVP this year is DeRosario, he seems to be one of the 2 or 3 in the running. Considering he is the only regular Canadian field player in the league, I'd imagine that most would perceive him as being the tip of an iceberg.

In any case, I would indeed favour seeing the rules apply the same to all teams, and would even accept that Mexican players be included in the mix, though the top ones will continue to opt for higher salaries in their own league and in other stronger competitions.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

Ideally, it would be best for canada's internatioanl competitiveness to house a core or internationals within one to two teams. Maybe at max three. This is all assuming that other canadian clubs such as Van and Mtl are eventually added. When you really think about it, this would put canada in a situation that is no different than other UEFA powers. Eng, Ita and Ger will usually draw from a small group of 1-3 clubs. The same applies to many of the smaller to middleweights in UEFA. There are a great deal of benefits to doing this.

Having said that, I highly doubt that MLS will permit that. What will happen is that they will change the definition of a domestic player to include Canadians and Mexican and that will mean more cnds in the mls but there wont be as many of them concentrated on the one Cnd side. This will allow more freedom of movement for canadian players and willl be good from a mkting standpoint since wi will allow player trades etc etc... That is still very good for soccer in canada. Not ideal.

[Elias]

In theory, making Canadian players "non-foreigners" would be good. Like most theories it won't work.

According to Ryan's post, on current 18 man rosters, upto 7 foreigners are allowed. So that means there are 84 current foreigners. And there's what, one Canadian? This ain't EPL-foreigners, it's at best 2nd tier foreigners.

And before anyone says why waste a foreigner spot on a Canadian, well why waste an American spot on a Canadian? One of MLS's goals is to develop American players. It's also in their long-term best interest.

So that means there's 132 Americans. I don't think there's more than 15-20 Canadians that are better than 132 Americans. A Canadian team would carry minimum 11 Canadians. I don't understand why people think all of a sudden Canadians are going to be taking US spots.

It will only hurt Canadians, because a Toronto team will have a lot more Americans to choose from. The MLS-calibre Canadians are limited, meaning guys like Radzinski are better. So why bother trying to sign 15 out of 15 potential guys, when you could find equivilant Yanks with a lot less headaches?

Now if we had 3 Canadian teams, they would have to change it cause I don't believe we have 45 Canadian players that could play at MLS level.

[An Observer]

I disagree Elis...I think that we could certainly put 3 good quality Canadian sides together that would more than compete with the 12 US sides (and i am not including our better players coming back to play for us either...but certainly some of the guys in the lower divisions in Europe). I think players like Hirschfeld, Bernier, Occean, Friend, etc. would never have gone over to Europe if the MLS was open to them (i know Occean was drafted by NewYork but if he was not a "foreigner" in the league, he probably would have been signed up right away) and players like Clarke, Arristodemeo, Kindel would have had a place to play full-time so they would have developed into more complete players than they are now being forced to play part-time.

But lets hope that we get our wish of 3 teams...we can then take it from there. I personally think that what I have seen of Montreal and Vancouver.....with a few foreign additions plus keeping players like Sulentic, Gerba, Bernier and Grande over the years would make them competitive right now in the MLS. And if you take a few players from the Lynx....add a number of fringe national team players overseas such as Pozniak, Reda, Friend, Serioux, and possibly a De Rosario, Johnson, Marshall...and then add a few foreign players....and possibly a Radzinski or De Vos...they would probably be fine as well.

For example, here's a Toronto line up without van or mont players (and missing a foreigner)

Stamatopolous

Pozniak Reda Foreigner Hughes

De Rosario Serioux Foreigner Foreigner

Radzinski Friend

Subs

Rayner

Marshal

Arrango

Aguiar

Dodds

Johnson

Lammie

Matondo

Belotte

[Kurosawa1555362267]

You could definitely add Felix Brillant to that lineup.

[Andrew W]

I don't mean to simply add conjecture to the arguement, but I believe I could come up with a list of 30-plus Canadians who could play in MLS with varying degrees of success, and even more if we include college and youth players. This list could be accomplished without touching our Stalteri's, DeGuzman's and Radzinski's of the world.

We also have to take into account the wide variance of levels in MLS. In fact, I don't believe I've seen a pro league where there can be such a difference from top player to bottom player. While that may be damning with faint praise, I don't think it's unrealistic to believe that we have plenty of players who could challenge a Paul Broome, Chris Gbandi, Craig Waibel or Jeff Parke for a job. In the end that doesn't mean a team wouldn't keep the US player, but it does mean that the decision wouldn't have to come down to citizenship and could be based on real factors like potential upside.

[Guest Ed]

Any league that has employed Rusty Pierce for 6 seasons has a few holes to be filled.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Any league that has employed Rusty Pierce for 6 seasons has a few holes to be filled.

Geez, I spit my coffee all over the keyboard when I read that one. Thanks for that, got my day off to a good start.

[Elias]

I don't know what conjecture means, but I would guess if these guys you guys are naming were good enough for MLS, they would be playing now, instead of the Norwegian 3rd division, or especially instead of the USL.

Why aren't they playing now? And if they are not good enough to be one of the 7 foreigners, they are not going to be selected over 11 Americans. MLS has made it clear developing American players is a major part of their mandate.

Whatever reason you come up with now, will be the same if Canadians are not foreigners.

[DoyleG]

Try setting up a team without players that have a EU Passport.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Try setting up a team without players that have a EU Passport.

Relevence?

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

Relevence?

Players with EU passports have greater freedom of movement. You cannot be expected to bring back players to a Toronto MLS team that offers little freedom.

Should exclude players with US citizenship and Green Cards for the same reasons.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Players with EU passports have greater freedom of movement. You cannot be expected to bring back players to a Toronto MLS team that offers little freedom.

Should exclude players with US citizenship and Green Cards for the same reasons.

What less freedom do they have on a Toronto MLS team than they have in Europe? If they have an EU passport they always have the option to go back. If you're implying that they'd have little freedom of movement in the league itself, then that may be so if the league goes with an inverse rule for such a Canadian team. But I do not think that will discourage every and all players who hold EU passports from wanting to play in Canada when for some of them it could mean more playing time, similar money and a familiar culture, not to mention the chance to see and play in front of friends and family. I also don't see the relevence in disqualifying a portion of players from consideration because they may not be able to move on to DC United from the alleged FC Toronto. If the player is of quality an American team may make room for them under an international designation.

Plus, understand that I was responding to another posters opinion that their are only 15 or so Canadian players of MLS level should the league throw the gates open to all North American players. So in saying that I could compile a hypothetical list of 30 or so players that could likely compete at the MLS level doesn't mean I believe all of them want to or will be able to return to such a team. Still, they may choose to and I don't believe they'll all dismiss it out of hand like you obviously believe.

However, I don't agree at all with a notion that players with EU passports will not consider an opportunity to play on a Canadian MLS team where their playing status would likely be protected being that they are Canadians. In other words their only threat would be from other Canadians, unlike in Europe where their jobs are under threat by a multitude of European players. Like I said, if they are EU eligible then they'll always have the option to return overseas if they found a Canadian MLS side not to their liking for reasons of being too restrictive in terms of movement, wages or whatever reason.

As for Canucks with US citizenship or Green Cards, why the hell would I exclude them for the same reason? They would have that much coveted, IYHO, freedom of movement.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

I don't know what conjecture means, but I would guess if these guys you guys are naming were good enough for MLS, they would be playing now, instead of the Norwegian 3rd division, or especially instead of the USL.

Why aren't they playing now? And if they are not good enough to be one of the 7 foreigners, they are not going to be selected over 11 Americans. MLS has made it clear developing American players is a major part of their mandate.

Whatever reason you come up with now, will be the same if Canadians are not foreigners.

You're basing your opinion on the belief that the 11 American players are all superior to the international players which in my opinion from watching a number of MLS games, clearly isn't true. BTW, there are up to 20 Americans per roster when you include the reserves and developmental players minus the internationals. On most MLS sides the three to four senior internationals are usually starters and IMHO, superior players to all but three or four of the Americans on the roster.

There are a variety of reasons why players aren't in MLS, including salary, opportunity and that dreaded roster designation. This year New England wanted to keep Brillant and almost everyone from the coaches to the fans felt he was in their top 18 to 20 players, but not within the top four internationals to warrant an SI slot since he turned 25 this year. Thus a guy who is easily within the calibre of the top 18 for an MLS side was cast adrift and unable to find another job because for most teams, he's not someone who would fit within their top eight player where SI's usually are slotted. So if he were not a foreign designated player he definately would have been on New England's or an MLS roster. IMHO, several Canadians would be well within that top 18 designation, but might not be better than or have more future potential than the seven or eight internationals on any given roster.

I do partially agree that some of the reasons, salary in particular, would chase away some Canucks that have decided to venture overseas. Occean was a perfect example. The Metrostars all but handed him a roster spot and were gushing over his play in the preseason of 2003. Odd offered him more than the Metrostars could possibly muster, so easy decision. Whether or not he could garner the same bucks as one of the top players on a Canadian MLS roster would be debatable, if money is one of his prime motivators.

BTW, from what I can determine, MLS is indeed committed to developing American players but they are equally committed to growing their league into a strong entity on the American sports scene and having thriving member clubs. Every day I believe the distance grows between MLS and their original mandate back in 1996. As the league matures and hopes to become competitive on a worldwide scale, they'll likely look at modifying the way they do business. I think that's only natural.

Anyways, I respect your opinion on the issue, even if I don't agree with all facets of it.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

What less freedom do they have on a Toronto MLS team than they have in Europe? If they have an EU passport they always have the option to go back. If you're implying that they'd have little freedom of movement in the league itself, then that may be so if the league goes with an inverse rule for such a Canadian team. But I do not think that will discourage every and all players who hold EU passports from wanting to play in Canada when for some of them it could mean more playing time, similar money and a familiar culture, not to mention the chance to see and play in front of friends and family. I also don't see the relevence in disqualifying a portion of players from consideration because they may not be able to move on to DC United from the alleged FC Toronto. If the player is of quality an American team may make room for them under an international designation.

Players with an EU passport won't miss the opprotunity to use it since they have to be, by law, treated as an equal citizens. They can move freely around Europe, have decent playing time and earn a good living. MLS Salaries are still too low for Canadians to play and MLS would rather use their international spots on Latino players, even if the Canadian player is better.

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

Plus, understand that I was responding to another posters opinion that their are only 15 or so Canadian players of MLS level should the league throw the gates open to all North American players. So in saying that I could compile a hypothetical list of 30 or so players that could likely compete at the MLS level doesn't mean I believe all of them want to or will be able to return to such a team. Still, they may choose to and I don't believe they'll all dismiss it out of hand like you obviously believe.

Yet some of those hypothetical players (ie. Gerba, Brilliant, Sutton, Bartolomeu) have been in MLS and were found not to be up to standard. Certainly they don't want to be going back to MLS in the future, especially since they would wind up more as PR material showing that MLSE "cares" about Canadian soccer.

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

However, I don't agree at all with a notion that players with EU passports will not consider an opportunity to play on a Canadian MLS team where their playing status would likely be protected being that they are Canadians. In other words their only threat would be from other Canadians, unlike in Europe where their jobs are under threat by a multitude of European players. Like I said, if they are EU eligible then they'll always have the option to return overseas if they found a Canadian MLS side not to their liking for reasons of being too restrictive in terms of movement, wages or whatever reason.

As for Canucks with US citizenship or Green Cards, why the hell would I exclude them for the same reason? They would have that much coveted, IYHO, freedom of movement.

European born and raised players don't pose much of a risk since teams are looking at EU passport holders from other countries in order to keep costs down. European countries encourage it knowing that they would be able to find players who would bolster their national team.

The reason why there isn't any large number of quality Canadian players is the lack of a Canadian League. There are a great number of Canadian players who aren't going to move to Europe off the bat or go to an MLS team because they don't see it as being in their intrest. You put pro teams in those major communities with a reasonable salary and incentives (especially for U20 players) and you will see a better growth potential. We've already seen this in the old CSL which anchored the National program ad kept it alive for a long time.

Does one really think that MLSE would be willing to let a player go becuase they don't like it on the west bank of the pond? Not a chance. They would fight to keep the guy even to the point where his development as a player becomes stunted. Even other MLS teams are breaking the salary cap or extending contracts in order to keep top players in the league.

You forget that the reason they got the green card was that American teams have seen a long term intrest in the player and that other American teams will have an intrest in the future and would be willing to cough up serious compensation. An Toronto MLS team operation on a reverse of the MLS roster won't have the room to bring such players onto the team.

Adopting the "North American Player" idea won't fly with players or with the FMF or USSF, who both stand to lose a lot in the process.

The only thing that seems reasonable is a rule that would allow Toronto MLS to take on players with any sort of Canadian heritage even if they will never play for Canada. Mark Chung (San Jose/USA)is from Toronto as is Andy Williams (Real Salt Lake/Jamacia) and there are certainly other players around the world who don't play for Canada who would fill that gap.

MLSE's goal is making money first. Everything else comes a well distant second.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Yet some of those hypothetical players (ie. Gerba, Brilliant, Sutton, Bartolomeu) have been in MLS and were found not to be up to standard. Certainly they don't want to be going back to MLS in the future, especially since they would wind up more as PR material showing that MLSE "cares" about Canadian soccer.

Why wouldn't they want to go back. They'd probably want to prove that they can make it in MLS, that being released was a mistake. They've got lots to prove and as for saying that "they would wind up more as PR material showing that MLSE "cares" about Canadian soccer", that's just nonsense.

If they are good enough now to play for a Canadian team in MLS, what difference does it make about how MLSE comes out of it. A job is a job and playing for an MLS team in Canada is not exactly a bad career move. Who cares if they're public relations fodder. That's a major factor in professional sports.

db

[DoyleG]

Sorry to see that life has passed you by and you didn't notice.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Sorry to see that life has passed you by and you didn't notice.

Seriously, what the hell does this comment have to do with anything?

DB brings up a valid point, yet you answer with another DoyleG-ism. Get a life.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Seriously, what the hell does this comment have to do with anything?

DB brings up a valid point, yet you answer with another DoyleG-ism. Get a life.

Thanks Rudi. I believe that this is the perfect time to say "consider the source".

db

[matthew]

I've had this argument on big soccer and it's conjecture, but I don't think too many guys will come back to Canada to make MLS dollars and I don't see Hog Town FC throwing what money they have towards the level of Canadian talent they can afford, when they could poach a name Croat/Italian/Greek/Portuguese/etc player in the twighlight of their career for less than it might cost to get say Patrice Bernier.

Also between SIs and TIs, I don't think the team needs too many real quality guaranteed starters. I think Sutton and three of Gervais, Braz and Pizzolitto might be the only current USL starters to be real every day players. Add Pozniak and Serioux (who seem the likeliest bets to come back) and there's your starting 11 (with SIs and TIs making up the other spots).

Of the players who I could see coming back, Pesch is maybe one. I can see Radzinski coming back too, but not right away.

Forget DeRo. What could Toronto trade that would be worth one of the best players in the league and the key piece to San Jose this year? Unless we get one of those great 'LA has to trade Clint Mathis to the Metros so they can sign Hernandez kind of deals' that leave everyone cursing the league. I can't see Will Johnson leaving Chicago either. He's seeing first team at 18 and is a product of their youth system. He's more of a Chicago product than a Canadian product at this point anyway. Winston Marshall is likely easier to get, but a lot can change in a year.

Two MLS vets I can see Toronto maybe getting are Toronto-borns Andy Williams and Mark Chung.

Add in Franks, Hughes, Leduc and some youth like Haineault, Marshall, Harmse, Matondo, plus a couple of NCAA-produced Cancuks (Tomek Charowski came to mind first) and that's kind of what I expect the team would look like.

cheers,

matthew

[Free kick]

A bigger challenge might be finding managerial/front office soccer people. Ercoli, Pinnizotto, James, and Yallop immediately come to mind. Yet each of these four have have question marks. Yallop sounds like the safest choice but I don't really know what the typical MLS front office looks like and how important it is have knowledge of the MLS and pro soccer in North america. Since the Lynx have been a "bare bones" operations, I cant see anyone there being of any help. except perhaps Dick Howard.

Unlike players, there is not that many people locally or in Canada with experience in running a professional soccer operation. I think that could be a bigger hurlded than finding players. The last experience in pro soccer in Toronto goes back a fews years and is there anyone still around who could, say, be a GM? Then what about scouting? Does richard peddie or MLSE know enough about the game to pick the right person to oversee the operation? Picking the wrong people could be a set back for an organization. The Raptors have had a problem here.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

A bigger challenge might be finding managerial/front office soccer people. Ercoli, Pinnizotto, James, and Yallop immediately come to mind. Yet each of these four have have question marks. Yallop sounds like the safest choice but I don't really know what the typical MLS front office looks like and how important it is have knowledge of the MLS and pro soccer in North america. Since the Lynx have been a "bare bones" operations, I cant see anyone there being of any help. except perhaps Dick Howard.

Unlike players, there is not that many people locally or in Canada with experience in running a professional soccer operation. I think that could be a bigger hurlded than finding players. The last experience in pro soccer in Toronto goes back a fews years and is there anyone still around who could, say, be a GM? Then what about scouting? Does richard peddie or MLSE know enough about the game to pick the right person to oversee the operation? Picking the wrong people could be a set back for an organization. The Raptors have had a problem here.

THey could hire Bob Lilley as a coach, he seems to like Canada!!!