Who are these guys (Part II)

[Polish_LYNX_Fan]

I was in the process of replying but the thread got locked. I dont see why this thread should be locked there is the same discussion on the USL board why should be be kept silent. anywho this was my responce to the last post in the locked thread

Is it just here, or are there Polish skinheads across Canada?

I know skinheads. I also know they are not extream to the point of killing people. THey could be racist they could hate but they wont kill just because the other guy is black,indian,hindu,asian. SO I guess in responce to your question thre are skinheads (of Polish and non-polish origine across Canada)

[DarnCherry]

What a lame board. Moderators so cowardly that they'll delete messages that question their behaviour and then lock the thread.

Pathetic and cowardly.

[beachesl]

There is no problem questioning the behaviour of the moderators. Just don't break the clear rules when you do it.

I have a job to do and I do it. I am no bluestocking, but if I want to write objectionable posts, as clearly defined by agreed upon rules, there are plenty of other sites that allow it.

[Johnnie Monster]

BeachesL - you said:

quote:

I know that poking gentle fun at ethnic groups is considered harmless, but this stuff about a widespread and respected ethnic group in Canada is completely objectionable and unjustified, and is racist.

If that comment was directed at me, you are seriously out of line.

I did NOT say a single disrespectful thing about the Polish community as a whole. I did NOT suggest all skinheads were Polish.

I asked a legitimate question about whether or not the Polish skinhead phenomenon was limited to BC. I was asking for input from my fellow Canadians because it is a gravely serious issue where I live - just ask the RCMP, or the victims of hate-motivated beatings and murders in my community.

Polish Lynx Fan - you said:

quote:I know skinheads. I also know they are not extream to the point of killing people. They could be racist they could hate but they wont kill just because the other guy is black,indian,hindu,asian.

Well, if you want to associate yourself with racist skinheads, that's your call. Good luck with that.

Maybe the skinheads you know won't kill people, but the skinheads here in BC do. Just ask Nirmal Singh Gill's grieving family - they'll be glad to tell you how "harmless" racist skinheads can be.

[DarnCherry]

You deleted my message that asked if you had money for legal fees after you accused Johnnie of being racist in his post. How was that objectionable?

It's a gross misuse of power to be deleting parts of peoples messages and inserting text claiming that what was removed was racist. There's no way for him to defend what he posted and no way for others to conclude if what he posted was racist or not. I read it, found nothing to be racist but others are going to read it and conclude it was full of the worst racism possible.

[Johnnie Monster]

Wow, I just noticed that.

BeachesL - remove that "racist material" reference from my post in the other thread right now or this board WILL be hearing from a lawyer.

Hell, Polish Lynx Fan openly admits to hanging out with racist skinheads. I say that's BS, but you call ME a racist?

Give your head a shake and fix that post.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Don't sue me JM, but "gravely serious" is a bit of an exagerration. The case you've referred to is the only one I've ever heard of and I haven't seen a skinhead here since the 80's.

However, a lot of people have been shot in Vancouver night clubs recently as a result of Indo-mafia violence. (I realize that's totally irrelevant, just thought I'd see if I could get this thread locked too[8D])

I guess Chicago would be an interesting test case. I've spent a little time there and didn't see any skinheads. Although I did see a few in Krakow -though I'm pretty sure they weren't of the Nazi variety. Skinhead politics are a bit of a kaleidoscope to be fair, although I think much of the scene revolves around some warped sense of fashion.

As a side note, everyone here should brush up on their skinhead politics -either that or I have no sense of humor:

SHARP! Get it?

BTW, I don't know either of them but my impression is that JM and PLF are pretty similar in their fervent support for local soccer. I'm not trying to shut down the debate, but if you kill each other who will lead the chants?

[Johnnie Monster]

I can assure you that the Lower Mainland racist skinhead scene is very much alive and well, and is organized primarily through US-based White Power affiliate groups operating out of "training\education education centres" in Abbotsford and Chilliwack.

There's approx. 800 racist skins and skin associates active in the Lower Mainland alone, and another 200 or so in the BC Interior.

I know this because I've done extensive research on organized crime groups in BC with the assistance of the RCMP and the Organized Crime Agency of BC.

First and second generation European kids are specifically targeted for recruitment by these groups because it's easy to manipulate the family frustration of adapting to a new country into a hatred that will supply the head honchos with stolen drugs, cash and property.

The hate activities such as beatings, asasults, etc. are often an ugly byproduct of more **organized** criminal activities related to drugs.

[beachesl]

For the record, I never accused anyone of being a racist, just that the material was objectionable whether it was intended to be or not. Clearly, JM is not a racist, his abhorrence of the killing of the Sikh priest is evident of that. However, arbitraily (and irrelevantly, because it had nothing to do with the thread subject, which , remember, was apparent hooligan-type activiies among a group allying itself with Impact support)labeling a criminal movement as being Polish because one of the apparent members have a Polish last name (the other 4 persons convicted did not have Polish last names, two were German, one was Czech/Slovak and the other was French) could be construed or misconstrued as objectionable by some.

I have no probem with complaining, but the job a a moderator should be to apply the rules. If I do it improperly, I have no problem with being censured, and if I overstep my boundaries I would have no problem with those entrusted with this site to strip me of my responsibilities. I certainly wouldn't take it personally. Certainly, I would welcome an open discussion about my performance as a moderator particularly and the whole idea of moderation of this site generally. Certainly, this is not the first time the general issue has been raised, and it should continue to be raised.

If a moderator does his job, I suggest it should not be taken personally. I have broken the content rules in the past myself, and have been dealt with accordingly with the moderators here, both before and after I became a moderator myself. No problem. I have stated numerous times that I enjoy the posts from Krammerhead and Johnnie Monster (including this one, even with the objectionable material necessarily excised), and in fact have welcomed both back. I enjoy the risque element to many of thier posts. That is no reason not to do my job. If I offend people, fine, complain, I welcome it.

[Johnnie Monster]

Beaches - again, you are way off base and jumping to conclusions.

You have insinuated that I have labelled these skinheads as being "Polish" through some sort of ignorance. But the fact is, THEY are the ones who made that claim quite openly.

I knew of these skinheads PERSONALLY - as classmates, not as friends - because I went to school with three of them. They identified themselves to all in the school as "the Polish Posse," and all three frequently wore Poland's national hockey and soccer gear.

I think it's also silly on your part to presume the nationality of a person based on their last names. My name is Irish, but my family is very much Scots-Canadian.

It is YOU who is making assumptions about where they came from, not me. YOU are the one who is generalizing here, not me.

If three guys march up and down the halls yelling "Polish Posse!" and "Polish Power!" and TELLS EVERYONE at school that they are Polish, I don't think it's wrong for me to believe them.

And as stated before, I never said this was the fault of the Polish community, nor did I insinuate as much.

I'm going to respectfully ask you one more time to remove any editorial notes you have made on my posts which suggest I made racist remarks. It was not my intent, and I think I have explained myself fully.

If we can not work this out, I would respectfully ask that you put me in touch with whomever runs this website. I will not allow you to libel me in this manner.

And for the record - it wasn't a Sikh priest who was attacked - it was an elderly custodian of the Sikh temple. Wouldn't want to generalize all Sikhs as priests now, would we?

[youllneverwalkalone]

For the record, 800 messed-up kids out of two million people is exactly 0.04% of our population.

We shouldn't leave the impression there are a bunch of Polish kids running around terrorizing Vancouver. (As Beachesl has already suggested -btw, he's the nice one, that DJT is a **** )

I would bet way more than 0.04% of the southside have been involved in firms in the old country. This might be racist or whatever, but let's face it: almost every Englishman here is either running from the law, from their girlfriend's husband or, usually, both.

[Johnnie Monster]

Yes, the numbers are extremely small.

Food for thought, though - police estimate just three precent of all total active criminals are responsible for 70 percent of total crimes in Canada.

[strobe_z]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

We shouldn't leave the impression there are a bunch of Polish kids running around terrorizing Vancouver. (As Beachesl has already suggested -btw, he's the nice one, that DJT is a **** )

which one am I then? [)]

Without having a clue as to what sparked this debate, I decide to join in anyway... random thoughts in no particular order:

- being 1/2 Polish, the words "Polish Skinheads" makes me a bit uneasy without having a clue as to the context it was being used in. So I decided to check it out...

- Johnnie Monster's well-thought out explanation does show his intention was not to be racist IMHO, but I do have to say that the overall tone might be interpreted that way by some people.

- I didn't know "Monster" was a Scots-Canadian last name. Guess you learn something new everyday

- I think beachesl is doing a great job as a Moderator. Krammerhead's comments about mods being a 'suspicious and cowardly lot' (to paraphrase.. don't sue me!) aside, I think people have no clue how hard it is to be a mod - especially people like Krammerhead who've demonstrated in the past that the couldn't care less what people think about what they post.

- This is hardly a smear campaign to sully the good image of Johnnie Monster, so threats of legal action do seem a bit reactionary. Johnie's had lots of good posts, most of which are well thought out and interesting and is a valuable member of this online community.

- For some strange reason, this whole thing makes me think of the Comedy Now joke that CTV was running in a commercial a few weeks back... "What do you call a Native that's finished medical school.... a Doctor you racist".

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by Polish_LYNX_Fan

I was in the process of replying but the thread got locked. I dont see why this thread should be locked there is the same discussion on the USL board why should be be kept silent. anywho this was my responce to the last post in the locked thread

Is it just here, or are there Polish skinheads across Canada?

I know skinheads. I also know they are not extream to the point of killing people. THey could be racist they could hate but they wont kill just because the other guy is black,indian,hindu,asian. SO I guess in responce to your question thre are skinheads (of Polish and non-polish origine across Canada)

So because you know a few racist skinheads (why you would, I don't know...) who aren't "extreme enough to kill people", that means there are none? So in all the cases of hate-crime and racially motivated killings, not one of these has been commited by a skin-head? Is this what you're saying?

[beachesl]

Okay, have cleaned up the edits from the first post to avoid any danger that some might think JM is a racist, which he certainly is not, in a way to deal with the objectionable reference. Johnnie Monster, from what I've seen here and on the SouthSiders forums, may not be as PC as some of us may like, but he seems intelligent, fair, genuine and definitely not racist, and there is purpose to his posts (that's not to say that such people can get away with more, just that I have greater confidence that they have something significant to say, and hence we want give him the full benefit of the doubt that he deserves). Like some others, on the surface he may seem harsh, but there is a lot of substance to his thoughts. Let's face it, these guys complaining about "censorship", mine or by others, is not the same as certain problem makers of the past, so we have to give them this due. I also apologize to these guys and others for being a bit strict for doing my job. I assure you this is not an ego thing on my part, it is an attempt to be fair to all concerned.

And just to be clear, I want to fully retract any suggestion the JM posts racially objectionable material or that he is a racist in any way. We all intrinsically know that, and we have too much respect for the substance of his views to possibly feel this way.

To conclude, I wouldn't want to hem in any fun or free-wheeling discussion that makes the site enjoyable, but I would ask all of us, myself included, to be a little bit more aware of how certain terms may be used that may be construed as legitimately objectionable or insulting to other posters or those reading this site.

On DJT's suggestion, I am locking this thread as well.

[beachesl]

Okay, have cleaned up the edits from the first post to avoid any danger that some might think JM is a racist, which he certainly is not, in a way to deal with the objectionable reference. Johnnie Monster, from what I've seen here and on the SouthSiders forums, may not be as PC as some of us may like, but he seems intelligent, fair, genuine and definitely not racist, and there is purpose to his posts (that's not to say that such people can get away with more, just that I have greater confidence that they have something significant to say, and hence we want give him the full benefit of the doubt that he deserves). Like some others, on the surface he may seem harsh, but there is a lot of substance to his thoughts. Let's face it, these guys complaining about "censorship", mine or by others, is not the same as certain problem makers of the past, so we have to give them this due. I also apologize to these guys and others for being a bit strict for doing my job. I assure you this is not an ego thing on my part, it is an attempt to be fair to all concerned.

And just to be clear, I want to fully retract any suggestion the JM posts racially objectionable material or that he is a racist in any way. We all intrinsically know that, and we have too much respect for the substance of his views to possibly feel this way.

To conclude, I wouldn't want to hem in any fun or free-wheeling discussion that makes the site enjoyable, but I would ask all of us, myself included, to be a little bit more aware of how certain terms may be used that may be construed as legitimately objectionable or insulting to other posters or those reading this site.

On DJT's suggestion, I am locking this thread as well.