It's "done": Stadium Downsview "confirmed" by CSA

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

[:0] Seriously?! Although that would explain a lot.

Does anyone on the left coast know if Kerfoot has been approached by the CSA (or anybody) about funding a Toronto stadium (the "private" investment part) and even a Toronto MLS team? I'm being absolutely serious here. There's a couple US owners who own multiple teams, so why not Kerfoot (if it was to happen in Vancouver). It would make financial sense for him to own both Toronto and Vancouver as opposed to just Vancouver (he could lose double the money []). While local owners are usually better, not really necessary if done right (I think Kerfoot knows a thing or two about growing a company). For some wild wacky reason, as a soccer fan, I would feel more a little more comfortable if Kerfoot owned the team, as opposed to Maple Leaf Sport & Entertainment Incorporated.

Why? This is an honest question.

I don't know why Kerfoot would want to go that route. I feel good about MLSE. The cross-promotion and cross-sales possibilities are very good.

I'd even name the team the Leafs.

db

[BusanBhoy]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

...again only a car option (not even speaking of taste), for those of us that choose not to drink drive its got to be in town. BTW a streetcar from St. Andrews to the ex would be faster than walking from the allen side of downsview to the keel side.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Why? This is an honest question.

I don't know why Kerfoot would want to go that route. I feel good about MLSE. The cross-promotion and cross-sales possibilities are very good.

I'd even name the team the Leafs.

db

Why Kerfoot would want a Toronto MLS team?

Well, any national tv deal or national sponsorship deal would be focused on a Toronto team. So if he owned both, he would have a lot more leverage and protect his Vancouver investment.

If MLS never goes to Vancouver, then the Caps could be the unofficial Toronto farm team (obviously officially it would never sell out there), thus adding an other top tier to the club in a warped sort of way. But kids out there would know that joining the Caps club is a clear path to MLS, which with a team in Toronto would be the top team in Canada. Obviously, hopefully a similar club system would be built in Toronto.

If MLS goes to Vancouver but in 10 years, he is in control of the MLS brand in Canada, and all that stuff. I think there are potential benefits, especially all it would take is if he puts up $10-15 million for the stadium, plus MLS costs. But like others pointed out, he seems to be more interested in Vancouver, instead of soccer per se.

"I'd even name the team the Leafs." - At least that's one way to ensure "the Leafs" are playing in May and June.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Why Kerfoot would want a Toronto MLS team?

Well, any national tv deal or national sponsorship deal would be focused on a Toronto team. So if he owned both, he would have a lot more leverage and protect his Vancouver investment.

If MLS never goes to Vancouver, then the Caps could be the unofficial Toronto farm team (obviously officially it would never sell out there), thus adding an other top tier to the club in a warped sort of way. But kids out there would know that joining the Caps club is a clear path to MLS, which with a team in Toronto would be the top team in Canada. Obviously, hopefully a similar club system would be built in Toronto.

If MLS goes to Vancouver but in 10 years, he is in control of the MLS brand in Canada, and all that stuff. I think there are potential benefits, especially all it would take is if he puts up $10-15 million for the stadium, plus MLS costs. But like others pointed out, he seems to be more interested in Vancouver, instead of soccer per se.

"I'd even name the team the Leafs." - At least that's one way to ensure "the Leafs" are playing in May and June.

It's double the gamble though. If we guess that the fee will be $12 to $15 million ($10 million for Real and Chivas this past year) that's $30 million US just for starters. Big big bucks. I know he's got it but .....

In any case, any sports league would be nuts not to want the owners of the Leafs and the Raptors in their stable.

db

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

In any case, any sports league would be nuts not to want the owners of the Leafs and the Raptors in their stable.

An organization that doesn't know anything about the sports it's in?

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

An organization that doesn't know anything about the sports it's in?

They can learn enough in short order but they don't have to be experts themselves, they can hire the specialised expertise they need as long as they can run the business which they have already shown they can do. Professional sport is entertainment business first, sport second.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Relax...

I wasn't aware that I had been panicking.

When I spoke about boats I had public & private transportation in mind. Private transportation Downsview wins hands down. That includes people in the 905 area that you mention(trust me on that one, as that's where I live). A subway stop right at the stadium is better public transporation by streetcar or by Go Train. I'm not actually convinced that most people working downtown would be able to get to the Ex quicker than they would to Downsview. And you also have a lot of people who don't work downtown.

[Manuel]

Kevin Pipe was on AM640 in Toronto yesterday at about 5:30pm.

From what I remember, he said that Downsview was chosen because the Feds are their biggest partner, and they want to make them happy. He also said that the city of Toronto has never put any $$$ on the table, as well as this was a very hard project to manage. Trying to get all the levels of government and private investors on the same page. He did mention that MLSE will put some money in the stadium, and that the stadium, because of the bubble, will be the most used facility in the city. They also went on to talk about if Toronto would support a professional soccer team, which Kevin thinks it can.

I think that's more or less it.

[Richard]

"this was a very hard project to manage"

That I can certainly believe. If the general spirit in this forum is at all representative the poor guy has not been getting much support and encouragement, just a string of brickbats.

[Metro]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I wasn't aware that I had been panicking.

When I spoke about boats I had public & private transportation in mind. Private transportation Downsview wins hands down. That includes people in the 905 area that you mention(trust me on that one, as that's where I live). A subway stop right at the stadium is better public transporation by streetcar or by Go Train. I'm not actually convinced that most people working downtown would be able to get to the Ex quicker than they would to Downsview. And you also have a lot of people who don't work downtown.

Also, a Downsview stadium would finally get the city and province off their butts and extend the Spadina subway line up to York University and hopefully into Vaughan.

[Bill Spiers]

Well ... after Wednesday morning's encouraging news - "We have a stadium - Downsview Park!" - and then Thursday's discouraging news - "City to oppose Downsview Park stadium" there's very little new news on Friday morning! Just an endorsement of the Downsview Park site from Ken Dryden.

However, I'm still rather discouraged and angry at the City of Toronto response to the possibility that Downsview Park would be the site of our much-needed soccer stadium. I guess I should give the City politicians the benefit of the doubt - they could have been mis-quoted or quoted out of context but when Joe Pantalone says "It's a bad decision" and Mayor Miller says "It (Downsview) will be a white elephant" they are both insulting a large group of people who see advantages in Downsview Park as the site. I'm surprised that politicians would be insulting the very people that vote them into power! And as for Councillor Augimeri "It's a total shock to

me!" - where has she been for the past few months (years?) that Downsview has been one of the proposed sites?

And the implication from Joe Pantalone that they will put money into a stadium at the CNE but not one at Downsview Park simply stinks! Isn't Downsview Park still in the City of Toronto? Why would they discriminate against one part of the city over another. (Perhaps they believe that only the 'old' City of Toronto really counts!). And interesting that this is the first indication from anyone

that the City of Toronto is going to put any money into this project!

Downsview Park is certainly my preferred site although I'm open enough to recognise that there are good arguments for the CNE as well. So why do these City politicians seem so adamant that the CNE site is the ONLY one they will consider. Why can't they be more open to considering other possibilities? It makes you wonder what their real motivation is!

And it seems to me that we need some politicians with more of a vision. Why try and build everything downtown? Mel Lastman was probably right - we need to diversify! There may not be much at Downsview Park right now but try and imagine what it could be like.

Particularly if they proceed with another idea that has been floated - the National Sports Institute!

I would have thought that the NDP-dominated City of Toronto Council would be idealogically opposed to more 'attractions' downtown! Do we need more people driving downtown making the pollution even worse? Although those same people will probably be driving to Downsview, it is city driving that has more of an impact on pollution than highway driving.

And finally, what will make me really annoyed is if these City politicians have killed our chance of getting a decent soccer stadium in Toronto and the opportunity to see the FIFA U-20 Championships in 2007!

End of rant!

[Moosehead]

why such an interest in a stadium that only seats 20,000 and won't be suitable for soccer anyway as by the sounds of it will be an indoor fieldturf stadium

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Moosehead

why such an interest in a stadium that only seats 20,000 and won't be suitable for soccer anyway as by the sounds of it will be an indoor fieldturf stadium

Go back and read the newspaper articles, its really obvious.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I wasn't aware that I had been panicking.

When I spoke about boats I had public & private transportation in mind. Private transportation Downsview wins hands down. That includes people in the 905 area that you mention(trust me on that one, as that's where I live). A subway stop right at the stadium is better public transporation by streetcar or by Go Train. I'm not actually convinced that most people working downtown would be able to get to the Ex quicker than they would to Downsview. And you also have a lot of people who don't work downtown.

Well, firstly, as I understand it the subway will not be right at the stadium. The subway is located at Allen/Sheppard....all the articles I have read indicate the stadium is to be located at the Keele side of the park....a very long walk.

I am also a 905er....since the subway does not go into 905, I am not sure how you can say subway is better than GO? Subway is better for those who will attend the games and happen to live near one of the existing subway lines.....no where close to a majority of the people in the GTA.

Having done both, I can assure you the subway ride to Downsview is longer (significantly) than the 509 Harbourfront streetcar (which is really a light rail system in disguise as it has designated "stops" like a subway) to the EX.

There are a lot of people who do not work downtown...you are correct. I simply pointed out that downtown is the largest employment node (by far) in the GTA. That is the reason that the entire transit system is aimed/pointed at Union...that is where the most people work.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Metro

Also, a Downsview stadium would finally get the city and province off their butts and extend the Spadina subway line up to York University and hopefully into Vaughan.

Not. York extension will be built for a variety of reasons (the environmental assessments are almost done) but not because of this stadium. Even our governments would not spend $1.5 billion to extend transit to a stadium that seats 20,000 and cost $60 million.

The York extension might improve the access to the stadium....but it will not be built for that reason....not by a long shot.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Well, firstly, as I understand it the subway will not be right at the stadium. The subway is located at Allen/Sheppard....all the articles I have read indicate the stadium is to be located at the Keele side of the park....a very long walk.

We'll have to see where it goes, but even then a walk rarely does people harm. The walk from Union to the Skydome is also quite lengthy, people still do it.

quote:

I am also a 905er....since the subway does not go into 905, I am not sure how you can say subway is better than GO? Subway is better for those who will attend the games and happen to live near one of the existing subway lines.....no where close to a majority of the people in the GTA.

The majority of those people will be driving in, not taking the transit. The vast majority of people in the suburbs have a car, its no use pretending otherwise. Even then, if I'm heading down to the ACC, I and everyone else I know) drive to the nearest subway station, park for free and take the subway in. Its cheaper and easier and quicker than taking the Go (particularly as you often have to drive to get to the Go Station in the first place anyway).

That's if there is no Go Station put in for the park. If there's a demand for one, with the tracks right there, I'm sure they would put it in place.

quote:

Having done both, I can assure you the subway ride to Downsview is longer (significantly) than the 509 Harbourfront streetcar (which is really a light rail system in disguise as it has designated "stops" like a subway) to the EX.

This statement has very little meaning to it - which one is longer is entirely dependant upon where you are getting on the subway to begin with. If you drive to McCown subway station and take it from there I can assure you that it takes more time to get to the Ex than it does to get to Downsview. However, let's not get pedantic.

quote:

There are a lot of people who do not work downtown...you are correct. I simply pointed out that downtown is the largest employment node (by far) in the GTA. That is the reason that the entire transit system is aimed/pointed at Union...that is where the most people work.

You also have to take into account where people live, which in this case is more important. Downtown is dead on weekends. People going to a soccer game during the day on a weekend (when most of the games would likely be played based upon the MLS schedule & past history) are not going to want to have to trek back downtown after having spent the whole week commuting downtown. Throwing out the "well what about games on Wednesdy nights" bit is a red herring in my view - the majority of games will not be played on work nights. Important internationals that might occasionally be will draw in crowds no matter how long it takes people to get there.

I don't think the Ex is a bad site at all. It would be fun & nostalgic to have a stadium there. But for most people in the area, Downsview is going to be easier to get to the majority of the time when there's a game on.

[Marc]

quote:Downtown is dead on weekends.

Certainly not in the summer, which is the main soccer season. Other than Bay Street (where there is nothing but offices) downtown as a whole is pretty busy.

quote: I don't think the Ex is a bad site at all. It would be fun & nostalgic to have a stadium there. But for most people in the area, Downsview is going to be easier to get to the majority of the time when there's a game on.

I agree somewhat, although the car access does not take into account traffic and potential user trends. If traffic becomes so bad that one can't drive to it, then the car aspect is somewhat lost, not to mention gas prices...

[Metro]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Not. York extension will be built for a variety of reasons (the environmental assessments are almost done) but not because of this stadium. Even our governments would not spend $1.5 billion to extend transit to a stadium that seats 20,000 and cost $60 million.

The York extension might improve the access to the stadium....but it will not be built for that reason....not by a long shot.

I know why. What I'm suggesting is that an official Downsview announcement may speed up the process of the extension finally being built, that's all.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

Certainly not in the summer, which is the main soccer season. Other than Bay Street (where there is nothing but offices) downtown as a whole is pretty busy.

But the context we were talking about was offices & people who work in them. Everybody who travels downtown to work in an office job from Monday to Friday doesn't go downtown to work on the weekend. That's why Bay street is a ghost town on Saturday afternoons. Its not absolutely everyone, but it is a lot of people, and why traffic is so much lighter on the DVP on a weekend than a weekday.

[403 Addick]

Seeing as though I'm not from Toronto hopefully I can give a non-biased answer. Out of the two location I personally think that Ex is the better site. I believe the Ex is better because in a urban planning sense it has more too offer as well as benefit from getting the stadium built there.

The argument for building the site downtown is that it is easy to get to, and the argument against is that nobody lives downtown or is there on the weekend. Funny thing is that both arguments show reasons why the stadium should be built there.

There is mass transit that allows people from the 905's to get to the game and trams that can pick people up from Union and other subway stations. Downsview on the other hand has a subway stop on the other side of the proposed location and the only other option is by car; the last thing a city trying to reduce auto-dependency needs.

Downtown T.O. is dead on the weekends and nobody goes there. Exactly why you need to redevelop the area!!! Put something there that will draw people back downtown! Redevelop the area to mix in commercial, residential, and entertainment so people can live, work, and play. Having a stadium not only brings people back but also gives local residents something else to do and increases the land values and aura.

Downsview only has one thing, the people of what's his face's riding. I applaud the City Council for taking such a hard line stance because they are right,t and actually have a lot to lose. It is so hard for urban planners in Canada to plan sustainable areas and when they have helpful tools, such as this stadium, which are rarely handed out they have to fight to place it in the right area where it can help build a sustainable community.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Interesting that you now shift a debate that was purely about time and access to public health since it now suits you better. We were talking about the time it takes to get there and all I am saying is that if after arriving by subway, the fans now have to walk from the Allen to Keele...you have lost your subway advantage. People will either drive or they will take much longer to get there.

That is how we get in this car dependant mess...we assume people will drive so we build things they HAVE to drive to and then we say...see, they just want to drive. I recently saw a game at Lansdowne Park in Dublin (Ireland v Italy...good match)....there is a 45,000 seat stadium with exactly 0 parking spaces (not a few or a shortage, but 0) and that makes people use buses, trains etc to get to the game...no one complains and now they are planning on building it out to over 60,000.

The statement has lots of meaning as it was an answer to your comment that you are not sure that someone from union would get to the ex faster by steetcar than that same person could get to Downsview (check back, you asked it). Don't keep changin the question after someone gives you the answer you didn't like.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by 403 Addick

Seeing as though I'm not from Toronto hopefully I can give a non-biased answer. Out of the two location I personally think that Ex is the better site....

It is so hard for urban planners in Canada to plan sustainable and when they have helpful tools, such as this stadium, which are rarely handed out they have to fight to place it in the right area where it can help build a sustainable community.

Well said.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

But the context we were talking about was offices & people who work in them. Everybody who travels downtown to work in an office job from Monday to Friday doesn't go downtown to work on the weekend. That's why Bay street is a ghost town on Saturday afternoons. Its not absolutely everyone, but it is a lot of people, and why traffic is so much lighter on the DVP on a weekend than a weekday.

Oh yeah I didn't pick up on the offices context...I wondered why you would be saying downtown's dead when it's not, I guess it's only dead in context with the pandemonium of office work. Of course not everyone comes down, but it's not as if anyone walks around Downsview either!

[canadiankick97]

I'll say that most areas surrounding the Exhibition are almost just as busy on weekends than weekdays.

But I'm not disagreeing with G-L either because I know a lot of the downtown area is empty on weekends, but not so much the western edge of it.

[pstain]

If you're in the 905 area then can't you take the GO bus to Yorkdale station and then go up 2 stops to Downsview?

And if it's near the Keele area then you can just take the 84 Sheppard West and you can get there in like 5 mins. Besides the entrance to Downsview Park is closer to Keele than Allen Rd. (I go to York so I pass by that area everyday).

I would've thought that having the stadium at the EX would've been better simply because so many events happen near that area in the summer. Carabana, Molson Indy, CNE opening for 2 weeks, Chin Picnic, etc. all happen in the EX and there could've been A LOT of cross promotion there with the MLS team.