Canadian Pro Soccer at it's Finest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elias]

MLS is evil crap. We need a Canadian pro soccer league. Canadian Soccer League!!!!! Go CSL Go!!!!!!! The Albanian 3rd division better watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamilton Thunder fans may be few and far between at Brian Timmis Stadium this season. But the vocal majority -- a small but dedicated group of soccer fans -- may have to pass a hat.

Hamilton Spectator: City Shuts Out Pro Soccer Team

Team scrambles to finish season after parks cut off in rent dispute

By Larry Moko

The Hamilton Spectator

(Sat., Aug 27, 2005)

The city has shut out its Canadian Professional Soccer League team.

Hamilton Thunder, who if they won last night (they did) in Oshawa against Durham Storm could take over first place (they did) in the Western Conference, are scrambling to find a place to practise and play their remaining home games.

The city has denied the four-year-old soccer franchise access to both Brian Timmis Stadium and their practice facility at Mohawk Sports Park. At issue is an unpaid bill for for stadium rental of $26,074.21. The debt covers several years.

Fans were turned away from the scheduled Aug. 18 game at Brian Timmis when the Thunder and St. Catharines Wolves agreed beforehand to move the contest to the Garden City -- all proceeds going to the Wolves.

Unless the Thunder can resolve the financial matter, similar arrangements may have to be made for the remaining home starts against Laval Dynamites (Sept. 10), Vaughan Shooters, (Sept. 15) and Toronto Croatia (Sept. 22).

"They are not allowed to rent any facilities in the city until they bring their outstanding balance up to order," said Gary Makins, acting director of the culture and recreation department. "Once they get their debt paid they certainly are welcome back to the facility."

Thunder owner Italo Ferrari plans to discuss the matter with city officials and hopefully work out an arrangement that would allow the two-time division champions to return to Timmis -- the park connected to Ivor Wynne.

Ferrari says the rent of $1,000 per game is too expensive. (Albania here we come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Only about 200 fans on average attend Thunder games, where admission prices are $10 for adults, $5 for seniors and students. Children under 12, accompanied by an adult, are allowed in free.

"The club cannot afford to make those payments," he said. "I think $200 or $250 would be fair for the city to charge."

Said Makins: "We have to at least meet our costs. You can't expect taxpayers to subsidize a team going in there."

Stan Adamson, director of media and public relations for the CPSL, confirms Ferrari's assessment that the Thunder's stadium rental rate is the highest in the league.

"He's paying much more than anyone else," said Adamson, who admitted being surprised when told by The Spectator of the Hamilton club's scheduling dilemma and ouster by the city.

"Other communities are trying to accommodate teams in the CPSL with rates in keeping with attendances (averaging in the hundreds of fans league wide),"he said.

(Here's a wild and wacky idea, why not teams raise their attendance?)

In terms of other costs, Ferrari says players' salaries are being paid. He recently sent a letter, signed by many of the players, to the Thunder fan-club website, which said in part: "The Hamilton Thunder Soccer Club always has fulfilled its contractual financial obligations with its players in a timely manner and when delays have occurred, the management has always been sensitive and attentive to the situation."

Ferrari said the letter was issued to counter "false allegations" by the public about club morale regarding salaries and recent developments. According to Ferrari, the Thunder has only landed $17,000 in sponsorships over the past four years and the club's total player cost per month is in the range of $20,000. (Albania might be aiming to high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Ferrari, 58, lives in Vaughan and is general manager of Hamilton City Centre. He manages real estate projects for Fercan Development Inc. (How come nothing good ever comes out of Vaughan. [])

"Sometimes we have delays like any other business, right?" Ferrari said. "But we're addressing the issues. We're very close to our players. They are reasonable."

Paul Ferguson, first-year general manager of the Thunder, said the city had given advance warning to settle up the debt.

"I'll do everything in my power to make sure we finish the season," Ferguson said. "We need to find a way to rectify the situation. We need pro soccer in this city."

Ferguson said the team has been successful on the field and the organization wisely moved forward this season with the formation of an Under-21 development squad.

Said Ferrari: "I still have faith in the city. They are reasonable people. I don't have hard feelings. I understand." (This clown doesn't have hard feelings? He doesn't pay his bills for three years and HE doesn't have hard feelings? Are you bull****ting me?)

Entering last night's game at Oshawa Civic Stadium, Thunder's record was 6-3-7.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

What I am trying to figure out: Why is his wage bill @ $20k per month, yet there is no advertising (thus small attendance) for a top of the league-calibre squad and isn't paying the rent.

I figure he's lost close to $1 million in 4 season of operation and most of those losses are based on the wages, which he pays.

I just don't get it.

Plus, the guy in the pic with the scarf is a damn genius.

[Luis_Rancagua]

There has always been rumours from Thunder owner Italo Ferrari that he was planning of building an 8-thousand seat stadium. Whatever happened to that proposal???

[thunderguy]

Wages of $20,000 per month????

20 guys at $1000 per month???

The university guys like Ian Bennett can't get paid or will lose their scholarship (NCAA); or lose their eligibilty to play (OUA).

A few of the guys are in high school with hopes of playing in the NCAA so they can't be paid. Where is this $20,000 in wages going???

Is Robbie the coaches son getting paid $20,000 a month???

[Richard]

This is crazy. The Pacific Coast Soccer League offers at least as good a standard of play as the CPSL with just as much if not more travel involved and it's clubs operate with a much lower annual budget than this, most of which is provided by sponsors. Maybe its because they don't pretend to use professional players.

[Cheeta]

If he's paying out $20K per month in player salaries then God bless him. Short season or no. But do I believe it??? No.

Still, if true, for an elite, local, semi-pro league that would be great. A regional elite league out here in the Flatlands which paid the local lads a grand a month for the inconvience of having to play other elite teams on the praire would be awesome.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

Richard, understand that the Thunder are very much the exception when it comes to this kind of wage bill. No one else in the league has anything near that.

Ferrari has told me on more than one occasion that he plans on taking the club to the USL. Writing if off as being grandstanding, but there isn't much reason why he'd do this if he didn't have further ambitions. I am led to believe that no other club in the league pays its players like this.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

I am led to believe that no other club in the league pays its players like this.

I highly doubt that Hamilton is paying their players like this either.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

Richard, understand that the Thunder are very much the exception when it comes to this kind of wage bill. No one else in the league has anything near that.

Ferrari has told me on more than one occasion that he plans on taking the club to the USL. Writing if off as being grandstanding, but there isn't much reason why he'd do this if he didn't have further ambitions. I am led to believe that no other club in the league pays its players like this.

Good to know this is an exception, the whole league would make no sense otherwise. If he's planning on moving up to the USL though, what's he doing playing highschool kids and which USL division, PDL?

[Johnnie Monster]

Hmmm. I read the title of the thread and assumed this was about Vancouver v. Montreal.

CPSL? Professional?

If you say so....

[big fan]

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

On our fan site, www.thundercrew.com, there is a statement signed by 15 players on the squad regarding the issue of paying and not paying. If any of those players were told to sign it in the event of it being untrue, then those players would have or could have filed a grievance with a labour board by now.

Also, the reason why the $1000 per game rent was deemed too high was because the Ti-Cats get Ivor Wynne for $1200 per game.

I was also informed that any monies owing was due to a failure to live up to the player's end of the contract (again, this is what I was told).

Ferrari also owns a real estate development company. Part of the 'payment' can include free rent.

And why not play high school kids. Doesn't stop any other league from doing the same.

[Blue and White Army]

Why are there so many idiots running soccer clubs in Canada?

The really odd thing is that mega-rich, business-savvy people leave their brain at the gate when they take over soccer clubs.

[Richard]

Not quite all of them, we seem to have a gem here in Vancouver at the moment

[DarnCherry]

Okay so the question is: With such a high payroll how come the team doesn't have a better record?

[Danny Boy]

The Ti-Cats get Ivor Wynne for $1200 a game? That's a sweet deal. Do they get consession revenue too?

[Danny Boy]

The Ti-Cats get Ivor Wynne for $1200 a game? That's a sweet deal. Do they get consession revenue too?

[Elias]

Last summer I saw a Thunder player's cheque (that's all the details), it was for about $650. The player said it was for 2 weeks. That would mean $1 300 a month after-tax, so that's about $1 700 pre-tax (or what it would cost the team). But I really don't believe that player, for all I know, it could have been for 3 months, since last year there were rumours they weren't getting paid either.

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

Ferrari has told me on more than one occasion that he plans on taking the club to the USL. Writing if off as being grandstanding, but there isn't much reason why he'd do this if he didn't have further ambitions.

His son. He's off to Portugal in October, right? If he stays over there, and with the latest problems with the city, I doubt the Thunder will be back next year. I mean why keep pumping money if there is absolutely no end in sight, and no other benefits?

Do you think 3 000 people will show up if the Thunder move to USL D1? I think maybe a few more against Toronto, Montreal, but, I don't think the support is there.

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army

The really odd thing is that mega-rich, business-savvy people leave their brain at the gate when they take over soccer clubs.

The thing is they are NOT mega-rich, business-savvy. The ones that are (Kerfoot in Vancouver and Saputo in Montreal), run successful operations.

Edit: And as much as people in Vancouver and Montreal like to fantasize that they are some sort of super-fans, the owners immediately before Kerfoot and Saputo pretty much ran both clubs into the ground. The problem is that the unsuccessful ones don't treat it as a business, and don't have enough money to see it through the tough times. They think that all of a sudden 10 000 people will show up and make you successful. As we have seen, it doesn't work like that.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

Which begs the question about Robbie... why spend $1 million to build a team around your son in a league that pays its players little to nothing on other teams? That money would likely be better spent on just handing it to your son outright, no?

I do believe that the Thunder could and should be drawing 1000+ per game, but as you know Elias, there is NO ADVERTISING anywhere in the city. So few people know that these games even exist, even with the semi-regular coverage that the club has gotten in the Spec.

I know that Hamilton can draw 3000 regularly for a soccer game because the Steelers were doing 2000 per game fifteen years ago when the sport wasn't followed by nearly as many people as there are today.

If I am not mistaken, Robbie wasn't the starter for the club the first season as that went to Dino Perri. Granted, Ferrari may have been setting up the team for Robbie, but it was a team that he didn't play much for in the first year. Point is, there was a season without Robbie in net.

If and when Robbie goes to Portugal and the Thunder disappear the following season, then you will be correct. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but since economics have shown the team should've been dead ten times over by now and they are still around, I believe there will be a team in Hamilton next year and that Ferrari will own them.

[Johnnie Monster]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

And as much as people in Vancouver and Montreal like to fantasize that they are some sort of super-fans, the owners immediately before Kerfoot and Saputo pretty much ran both clubs into the ground. [/br]

In the case of Vancouver, you are almost</u> correct, but not quite.

Yes, David Stadnyk walked away... and as a result, the team nearly folded.

But Stadnyk's claims about "huge financial losses" as operator of the Whitecaps were proven to be a smokescreen for his own misadventures on the stockmarket.

At the time this all went down I was a newspaper reporter in Burnaby (where Swangard is).

I looked into Stadnyk's background and discovered that the huge operating costs he was purporting were grossly exaggerated.

In the past he'd suggested to the media that Swangard's rental rates were an astronomical cost that was bleeding the organization dry...

...but aafter some digging I soon found out that he was receiving a full slate of exhibition, reg. season and playoff dates for BOTH the men's and women's teams for a measly $46,000 per year</u>.

$46,000, huh? That means his ticket sales on opening day alone would have been more than enough to cover the full cost of using Swangard for the year.

Yes, there's travel costs, operating costs, etc... and those were made up on the other 14 or so home dates played at Swangard.

The reality of it all was that Stadnyk's "huge financial losses" were actually incurred on the stock market, not the Whitecaps.

He then abandoned the team - and about three other ventures he was involved with - to get his personal finances in order.

Stadnyk was an A-class f--- up, no doubt about that. And because of him, we nearly lost the team.

But the team wasn't really "run into the ground" as statd earlier. Neither its attendance nor its operating costs ever dropped into the red.

Attendance has always held nicely... (except when Stadnyk insulted Vancouver fans in the media, which caused attendance to drop for a season)

... and it's been yielding profits, albeit small ones, for many, many years.

The way I see it, David Stadnyk's incompetence is the greatest thing to happen for soccer in Canada.

Were it not for him stepping aside, we may never have heard of a certain soccer-loving billionaire named Greg Kerfoot.

[DoyleG]

$1,000/game for Brian Timmins Stadium?

[DarnCherry]

quote:Edit: And as much as people in Vancouver and Montreal like to fantasize that they are some sort of super-fans, the owners immediately before Kerfoot and Saputo pretty much ran both clubs into the ground.

I'm not really too sure what point you are trying to make here. What do the fans in Vancouver have to do with what Stadnyk did? You make it sound like fans stopped coming to games that one year that Stadnyk walked away from the team hence we aren't super fans. Thats season started off with a crowd of 5,816 on opening night, and then Stadnyk went public with his lies about losing money on the Whitecaps, when as was pointed out it was money lost on the stock market. The next game vs El Paso saw a record low (at the time) Vancouver crowd of 2,896 as fans reacted to the lies. However at the end of the season the Whitecaps averaged 3,769 fans a game which was only 200 per game less than the season before Stadnyk took over the team. That is with a barebones budget for advertising and promotion. The fans never deserted the team.

So I don't know why the comment about us "fantasizing" about being superfans. Sounds like an unwarranted attack to me.

[Elias]

Ahhhh, aren't you the little sensitive one?

And all the attacks on Torontonians are warranted right? []

Anyway, my point was just that ownership plays a very important role, no matter how much fan support a club gets. For example Stadnyk and the Ionian Financial clown in Montreal couldn't make those teams work. But when guys like Kerfoot and Saputo who knew what they were doing, and had the money behind them, got involved, they turned things around.

It was in reference to Blue and White Army's point about "mega-rich, business-savvy" people who are involved. I was just trying to point out that, that is not the case. Certainly not in the CPSL.

Just out of curiosity, how do you guys know about Stadnyk's personal financial losses? And you're right JM, he should be given an award, cause if he didn't mess is up, Kerfoot probably wouldn't be involved right now. Although accounting is more of an art, I can't see how the club is actually making a profit. Especially with all the youth teams, and the money that Kerfoot seems to be spending, and like I said art, cause depends on what you count, but I doubt it.

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

Which begs the question about Robbie... why spend $1 million to build a team around your son in a league that pays its players little to nothing on other teams? That money would likely be better spent on just handing it to your son outright, no?

If I am not mistaken, Robbie wasn't the starter for the club the first season as that went to Dino Perri. Granted, Ferrari may have been setting up the team for Robbie, but it was a team that he didn't play much for in the first year. Point is, there was a season without Robbie in net.

This $1-million loss is your number right? This is not something Ferrari has either told you or been quoted? My point is that I think you are highly overestimating the loss. I would put it at the most half of that, if that.

But even a million, if he makes it big in Europe, he will make more than a million. And if Ferrari can afford it, why not? Most parents do go just a little overboard.

Robbie is only 21. So the first season he was only 17. Maybe there was still a shot at an NCAA scholarship or something, the CPSL was having problems if I'm not mistaken clarifing this issue of NCAA-eligibility.

But that second season, wasn't there a whole issue with Perri and he quit and even other players quit and a whole soap opera cause it was obvious Robbie was playing cause his daddy owned the team?

But like you said, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Johnnie Monster]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Just out of curiosity, how do you guys know about Stadnyk's personal financial losses? And you're right JM, he should be given an award, cause if he didn't mess is up, Kerfoot probably wouldn't be involved right now. Although accounting is more of an art, I can't see how the club is actually making a profit. Especially with all the youth teams, and the money that Kerfoot seems to be spending, and like I said art, cause depends on what you count, but I doubt it.[/br]

When Stadnyk started bailing on his other companies, lots of sports and business reporters started sniffing around.

Soon enough, insiders at StarSport Entertainment - Stadnyk's company that was running the Whitecaps - leaked that he was in financial trouble after taking heavy hits on the stock market.

Reporters questioned Stadnyk as to whether or not the rumors were true, and if I'm not mistaken, he eventually conceded on the record that he had in fact lost a bundle.

I found a couple of the old articles I wrote when this mess first started happening... I was a little off on the stadium costs, but not by much:

quote:From the Burnaby Now

Last year, the city collected $49,583 from the club in stadium rental fees.

The fees paid for 13 regular season Whitecaps' games, seven for the Breakers, plus a handful of exhibition and playoff games for both clubs, said city finance director Rick Earle.

The city also earned $64,824 in profits from concession sales at the two teams' games last year, Earle said.

But here's the really interesting stuff!!!

quote:From the Burnaby Now

Both local teams - the mens Whitecaps and womens Breakers - were dumped by owner David Stadnyk late last month amidst public complaints of poor ticket sales and a purported $2 to $3 million in losses since 1999.</u>

The league hasn't announced a formal asking price for the two clubs, although Stadnyk reportedly purchased the Whitecaps from businessman David Braley for somewhere between $300,000 to $350,000 three years ago.

So according to Stadnyk, he LOST close to $3 MILLION in three seasons.

OK, so we know for a FACT that only $150,000 of that went to rent for three years... and we'll say he bought the team for $350,000.

So we're supposed to beleive he lost an additional $2.5 MILLION

to travel, advertising and salaries?

Note that only the men's team got paid, and not much at all. Then add in a couple coaches and a skeleton crew of about a half dozen admin staffers.

$2.5 MILLION???

Consider that Vancouver was one of the best attended teams in the league at this time... if these were the actual losses incurred by a strongly supported club, how the hell did the league survive as long as it did?

Stadnyk's a lying sack of crap. I have an urge to track him down and send him a "see you in hell" card for his efforts.

[Johnnie Monster]

One last thing:

In another story written after it was announced Kerfoot had taken over, look what Lenarduzzi told me:

quote:from the Burnaby Now

Whitecaps GM Bobby Lenarduzzi said both the men's and women's clubs have a combined</u> operating budget of approximately $1 million per year.

So if we are to believe Stadnyk, then we can only assume he was paying</u> the fans to come to the games instead of the other way around....

Oh, and he must have also forgotten about all the corporate donations and ad revenues the team received... and the licensed merchandising dollars... and the youth soccer clinics.... etc etc etc.

What a dink.