Canadian soccer fans don't read much ...

[Mark Bick]

I agree with those who suggest co-operation between Alfons and Chris could be beneficial... but I can't see them joining forces-- for starters, it would be WFP and Playsoccer, not WFP/ISM. Alfons seems to have decided to cater to the casual soccer fan/coach/ player. It reads like his instructions to his regular scribblers was to just provide a primer on their chosen subject....don't dare insert even an interesting observation/sentence for the knowledgeable fan....and Ed Swain,George Tsitsonis, Sonia Henri sadly obliged (only Paul Hendren seemed interested in bring some life to his article.)

To its credit,Playsoccer is sharp looking, easy to read and Canadian...so more power to it, may it continue to publish....I'll buy every issue.

I've never had a problem with the "Football" part of WFP, or Posterboy, the magazine was never geared for the soccer mom, polite scribbling.... my hang-up was/is with "World"... grandiose,lack of focus (yes, it does have a few bites of global soccer,but it hangs more on the regional game) suggests more than WFP was able to deliver,teases that it could measure up with the increasing number of soccer rags hitting our shores (Kamloops)...FourFourTwo, World Soccer, When Saturday Comes, FIFA magazine,Champions, oddities like Soccer Digest.

Then there's the Yank rags....

As we lament the passing of our 3 Canadian rags (I thing you have to include It's Called Futbol to the may they rest in peace/recently departed), the Yanks have upped their total to 3 ... 90 Minutes, Striker! and the old warhorse, Soccer America. 90 minutes is available at Chapters and I do pick up every issue. While it may not flaunt wealth like the "OC", it has that California lifestyle/indulgent feel to it...laidback, don't rock the boat, we're basically doing fine, vibe. While it focuses on short bites, easy to read blurbs, there's usually enough passable stuff to not feel short-changed. The latest issue featured a very nice hit from Dennis Fitter, profiling the voice of Azteca stadium.

Then we come to the new heavy hitter on the block, Striker!, modestly proclaiming itself as " America's Ultimate Soccer Magazine." It has the benefit of being backed by Harris publications, money to burn, good distribution ... not only available at Wal-Mart, it's sprouting up everywhere, like the chain itself (and perhaps depressingly, its very first issue had a greater reach/distrubtion in Canada than any canuck soccer rag ever had.) To feel its tone, you just have reflect on its editor, Lang Whitaker.

The guy holds down three gigs, on-line cloumns for SI.com and the Harris basketball publication Slam (slamonline.com) .When asked why he was starting a soccer publication, he lamented at the quality of the other two rags, stating they held little interest for him, his goal was to produce an american version of 442, WSC (message to SA, 90 minutes...did I just piss on you? Sorry, I must thought you were on fire.) On the BigSoccer boards, Business Media section, he regularly posts as "Ronaldo's gap", he plays coy to questions about sales, subscriptions..."not focused on the sub base, and advertising left to the staff" " , is a tad disingenous. He speaks in his columns of trips to Oregon to meet sponsers,and (pre-Striker!) he spoke of his - courtesy of Nike and Barcelona FC - "My Kicks in Spain'' a whirlwind trip to Spain that had him meeting Ronaldinho and Maldini, getting a chance to have a kick-about with the stars.

There have been articles recently in the Brit press lamenting the fact that access to top-flight players are difficult to arrange,have to go through their agent, that many seem to have a greater loyalty to their boot sponser than club (and you often see articles on players featuring pics of them in generic Nike/Adidas, etc. gear.) Striker! has a love affair with those that can cover the freight,a big name on the cover, featured articles on the stars usually has them decked out in sponser gear...and a few obliging ads.)Their shrewdness on who they cover (David Beckham, latest cover/interview w/Lang...drops in the fact that they had met in Spain during a freebie to cover an adidas ad shoot) suggest the bottomline is never out of sight.

Mr Lang's sojourn to Spain spoke more of Mary Hart, ET, than Laurie Lee. One only has to compare Phil Ball's recent article in WSC about chowing down at Spanish footy matches to see the gulf in their scribbling. Ok, Phil Ball is Phil Ball, on-line scribbling generally has a different tone....but the fact he didn't take advantage of his new gig to cast a jaundiced eye on his sponsered freebies/crazed wages/spending in football ,reflects that he's quite comfortable being part of the entourage (and can you take someone at his word when they frequently use " the wifey" in their columns?)

To be fair, he acknowledges the rag has a long way to go, and issue three was an improvement..and he is a talented writer. I'm leaning towards 90 minutes, but for twenty cents more, you get twice the bang (100 pages, compared to 50 for 90 minutes) with Striker!.

Oh yeah, World Football Pages .... 90 minutes is able to generate decent sponsership with a circulation of 25,000. Mr Griffiths laments that at around 2,500, he hasn't been able to attract the kit sponsers,etc. There is one way Mr. Griffiths could get to that number...produce a free rag.

It's not as daft as it sounds...for example , in my neck of the woods, the Okanagan, we have "Off-Centre", that started as a leaning lefty politics, lifestyles rag...that mutated into issues, arts and entertainment rag. Monthly reaching 70,000, but a circulation of around 20,000, it's rolling in ad revenue, providing a living wage for the editor and payment for the staff. 40 pages...of which 20 is advertising, from radio stations, night clubs, real estate, auto...you name it.

Mr Griffiths seems to have friends in BC, Alberta that could help/steer him to have have circulation in 15 or so of the larger cities in those two provinces (and franchising/expanding to other regions is always a possibility) that could absorb enough copies to attract not only his current sponsers,but kit sponsers and others...ie Chapters could provide a few coins and books for reviews in return for an ad, etc.

Ofcourse the look of the rag wouldn't be as appealing as the current offering, but if Mr. Griffiths' true passion is to serve the soccer community, this is a possible avenue to explore,perhaps leading to a living wage for his effort.

Mr Griffiths has spoken of how fickle the soccer community is...that unless an amateur team is featured (including plenty of photos) they won't support every issue, that when he offered a free copy to Voyageurs, only a few took advantage of that freebie....so I ponder his attachment, his quest for page sponsers. I think that while Mr. Griffiths states they won't have editorial control, the perception alone weakens the rag, and that sadly power brokers like William Azzi, Richard Howe...aren't captivating scribblers. I was around this board when the Voyageurs Cup was conceived, chipped in a few bucks...but it really isn't that relevant, of interest, these days...on the Men's side. Three teams, Montreal always wins, Lynx are never in the hunt...unless the writer is going to get in touch with the Montreal Gm , find out if they bother dusting off the trophy, trot it out at half-time before that last game...then perhaps start a discourse about the feasibility of a canadian league, entry into MLS , something interesting beyond current standings, frankly it doesn't warrant space.

Even if the intention is to just publicize the Cup, assume that the majority of readers of WFP don't hit the Voyageurs site, 2 articles a year would be plenty.

Robert states that Peter Ferris is the only quality contributor for WFP...daft bugger. Yet the writing isn't consistently sharp to support B+W army's hot review. I shake my head when a discussion on this board starts about quality canuck soccer scribblers...that usually ends with only one entry, Neil Davidson.... dismayed that articles from WFP never seem to spark debate.

Yet as someone who did volunteer 16 articles on-line a few years back (13 on a website I created, 3 for the Voyageurs) that didn't stir the masses to even one sentence of re-action (reflecting on the bulk of my writing, I can't suggest that an injustice was done...then slowly breaking out into a smile remembering how the late Vic Bianchin was able, enjoyed, generating feedback), that many writers of WFP are happy to re-cap, than producing articles strong on originality.

Of the foreign shores soccer rags I mentioned, FIFA is the only one I hesitate purchasing...the rest are pretty damn good. I had stopped reading World Soccer in the 80's, bored by the 1 page format. I started picking it up last year, enjoy it. The latest issue...the one with Kaka on the cover...the editor gave writers a chance to stretch their legs, lengthy articles...and they delivered.

To truly service the Canadian perspective, I suggest to Mr. Griffiths that he consider returning/modifying his roots, that WFP originally hit the streets with some Gunslingers ( Ferris, Mackin,Himsworth...and at his best, Mr. Griffiths is one of our best soccer scribblers), steady hands (Lau, Lee, Yellowbellies.) That there are enough alumni (present, past), soccer writing talent in Canada to consider a mag that could publish annually, twice yearly, perhaps even quarterly publication that features original (can't find it anywhere else) scribbling,4.5 pages if warranted,strongly focused on the canuck scene. Fiqure that 1,000-1,500 will fork out $7.95 for 50 - 60 pages (work -out a break even point) and count on that the base will expand as the rep grows.

It's good days for the yanks on the soccer writing front, seemingly a few that earn a livng writing about their scene...but it also slightly dampens their creative edge (even my fav yank scribbler Greg Lalas offers up different views...there's his decent paying gig with Striker!...good stuff, but his best are the handful of offerings on MLSnet.com when he's running with the reserves, looking for a pick -up game, slagging Wynalda, cheesy music references.)

I think that the Canuck perspective offers more...that the blend of Brit expats, newbies, a canuck sensibility, perhaps reflecting our soccer scene, gives us an edge. Forget about servicing the community, filling slots for our publications...forge ahead with articles that if you came across them, they'd get you hard.

There is real honour in writing honestly, stretching yourself, producing the goods...even if means your best effort would result in perhaps only 1 article a year. I'm exhilarated by a great article, an author who has a way with words, who will take a stand (agree with his politics or not, Dave Zirin at edgeofsports.com is passionate, original and produces- for the most part- great word play.)

The best way to forge a Canadian soccer identity is to ignore the community...and write for yourself.

I edited this not only to remove some spelling errors but to add that I wish the best for Mr. Griffiths, hope he can continue, that I appreciate the efforts of the contributors, but I crave a canuck publication that takes the best of WFP (a healthy chuck of good scribbling, attitude, direction) that expands to a format that offers writers more than 1 page.

[analyst]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Then how do you account for the senior women's national team accomplishing this feat in that same lacking culture. Our soccer culture is as historic and passionate as any, that is not where our failings lie. Neither is it a matter of financial shortcomings, we are significantly more wealthy than many nations who are way more successful on the field. So I wonder what really prevents us from succeeding? Could it be just like the producer of WFP, that soccer in this country is still controlled by expatriots from the Old World, who are unwilling to change and adapt to a new culture? Of all the associations and federations in CONCACAF, none appear to be controlled by as many English/Scottish/Italian surnames as Canada does..... I'm tired too, of having guys, who sound like they just stepped off the boat from Scotland, running the game in Canada. The CSA's president should be able to converse in both of Canada's official languages, thereby being capable of communicating with Canadian from all parts of the country. Never mind this poop about having a pint with the lads and having a chat about the exploits of Partick Thistles. How Canadian is that?

Robert my dear friend, the womens game has not improved in the last 10 years, we're not ranked in the top 10 in the womens game, even though many of our best female athletes do play socer. Our best male athletes play hockey.

Canadians pay incredible amount$ to watch hockey game$, but they are reluctant to pay to watch soccer. Heck, the Canadian national womens team against the top ranked womens team in the world from Germany barely drew over 4,000 at Swangard recently. The Whitecaps men, despite $14 tickets, are only averaging 4,800 per game and they only have a 14 game season. Junior hockey teams in Flin Flon, Brandon, Moose Jaw and Red Deer outdraw the Whitecaps every game. And the Junior teams play 40 home games. Canadians love hockey, followed by Baseball football and basketball. Golf gets more viewers than soccer and CBC covers more curling matches than soccer games.

[Moosehead]

I think it is a shame its a great paper with a decent website, yet no sponsors. I think soccer is weak in the country because people don't support each other. Why not have the Whitecaps be a sponsor of WFP's website or other organizations. Not one sponsor on the website.

[Moosehead]

I think it is a shame its a great paper with a decent website, yet no sponsors. I think soccer is weak in the country because people don't support each other. Why not have the Whitecaps be a sponsor of WFP's website or other organizations. Not one sponsor on the website.

[Michael Crampton]

With regard to the soccer mom vs. hockey mom thing I don't think that you can discount the class element to why soccer mom's are so despised. The hockey mom always seems to be small town or rural (hence real, heartland, honest, and all those other virtues we still associate with rural life) while the archetypal soccer mom is middle class (professional) from a suburb (hence a social climbing obsessed poseur pretending to be a dedicated mother but really more concerned with keeping up with the latest in Martha Stewart Living). The hockey mom is (in popular imagination) actually concerned with their child getting better at hockey while the soccer mom is more concerned with their child developing proper self esteem so that they can become a lawyer.

These are generalizations of course... not all soccer moms are viewed negatively. A lower middle class soccer mom stretched in every direction and just managing to hold a household together will get more respect for her sacrifices than her SUV driving counterpart.

Mike.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

With regard to the soccer mom vs. hockey mom thing I don't think that you can discount the class element to why soccer mom's are so despised. The hockey mom always seems to be small town or rural (hence real, heartland, honest, and all those other virtues we still associate with rural life) while the archetypal soccer mom is middle class (professional) from a suburb (hence a social climbing obsessed poseur pretending to be a dedicated mother but really more concerned with keeping up with the latest in Martha Stewart Living). The hockey mom is (in popular imagination) actually concerned with their child getting better at hockey while the soccer mom is more concerned with their child developing proper self esteem so that they can become a lawyer.

These are generalizations of course... not all soccer moms are viewed negatively. A lower middle class soccer mom stretched in every direction and just managing to hold a household together will get more respect for her sacrifices than her SUV driving counterpart.

Mike.

Fact: We all have mothers. So why not devote a column in each issue to a soccer mom. The perspectives of these women, as disagreeable as these may be to some, would be far preferred to this reader instead of another advertisement. A Canadian soccer mom's point of view IMO would garner a far greater readership than a report from Miroslav visiting his old country. Again, when selling a product in Canada, it might be a good idea to focus on Canadian issues. A "Canadian Soccer Pages" publication is bound to outsell a "World Football Pages" in Canada any day. Buying an international monthly I would buy "World Soccer" over "World Football Pages" any day. Again, IMNSHO WFP diluted itself by trying to do to much of everything. "World Soccer" rarely offers any Canadian content, so why not capitalize on that when trying to sell your product in Canada? How do non English readers respond to; the Lads, a footy match, and all the other English specific terms? Chris limited his market to English/Candian footy fans by doing so, instead of Canadian soccer fans, and he has paid the price. Obviously, there are many more Canadian soccer moms than English/Canadian footy fans in this market place, and the moms didn't like PosterBoy. In my honest opinion, WFP was not a quality product and that is why it failed. Chris was able to produce a decent looking paper, but the distribution was always irregular. That doesn't work in business.

[wfp]

I'm absolutely kicking myself right now given my self-imposed ban on replying to Robert's farting against the breeze. However, there are so many anomalies in his most recent post that I'm executing the reply-to-all clause of my ban - initiated only to counter mis-information that's so misleading it's dangerous!

While Robert's idea of a column dedicated to the most influential force in football - the soccermom - warrants merit, the idea that one would rather find such at the expense of advertising is possibly redundant. However, the truth remains, WFP is suspended only because there is inadequate support to cover the cost of pages featuring soccermoms. Should there be more support, such is possible. as is a great deal more.

Contrary to Robert's snide attacks, WFP is a Canadian-focused newspaper - about 80% of every issue dedicated to something Canadian, and much of the international content is both written by Canadians and geared to a Canadian audience.

Also contrary, WFP has not diluted itself by featuring the world's game in all its facets, but rather suffered from an inability to feature MORE of everything. In a far more sensible critique, Mark Bick suggested that WFP's name "World" suggests more than WFP can deliver, which is partly true and, I believe, illustrates the point. Had WFP been able to print and fill 48 pages there would have been plenty of each footy 'genre' to keep almost everyone reading a half dozen pages specifically.

Of course, the point always behind featuring a little of the world's game was two-fold; to offer traditional lovers of the international game, a solid printed dose of original content on most major events, clubs and leagues etc, written for a Canadian audience and; secondly, by doing so, to tease those readers each issue into branching out and embracing our Canadian game in all its facets. We need to build heroes and legends here, not in the EPL, but most Canadians need weening on our supposedly lackluster Canadian game. Incidentally, also a challenge has been building an audience where there wasn't really one.

WFP is far from limited to an English/Canadian audience as Robert suggested. It's surprising how much of those 56 issues he claims he has, that apparently he hasn't actually absorbed. With the exception of preference to EPL over other int'l leagues, and a slight focus on English teams in major competition, the paper has no bias, and will feature anyone, anywhere who's newsworthy. Naturally, given my background, a little English always fills the cracks, but that has not deterred the approximately 70% of readers who have no English background whatsoever!!! Furthermore, the vast majority of those who have supported WFP one way or another are not English or Scottish but everything else under the sun. Contrary to Robert's flatulance, actual records suggest WFP has done a pretty good job of covering all the basis with next to no resources.

Which reminds me of this interjection...

As discussed with colleagues recently, it would be bloody helpful if every now and then one keeps in perspective that WFP is a teeny weeny little paper trying to grow to a point where we can be bitched at like all the big dailies! Until then, helping us grow rather than bitching would go a long way to putting in print more of what everyone (incl. Robert) wants to see. Maybe what I'm suggesting is that until we have a paid staff of 20 and I **** gold bullion for breakfast, WFP is still a teeny weeny paper trying to grow.

Whether WFP is a quality pub is, I suppose, up for debate always, but you can't really argue with distribution. Though we could always use more locales, as of July, WFP was on the counters of 2 dozen Lower Mainland soccershops and about 450 newsstands across BC, plus subs across the known universe. The fact that some readers refuse to search more than one location for copies is not WFP's problem!! Once again, we have our limits but always posted a store by store breakdown of locations online. Given the circumstances, the avenues were out there to find a copy each month.

In closing, I did want to thank Mark for his thorough appraisal of the soccer-mag scene. I don't agree with all but do appreciate the generally more constructive spin on things. It's always nice to find a post that hasn't been dragged through the gutter first.

Cheers

[Cheeta]

Any hope of keeping the electronic version of WFP alive whilst the printed hybernates?

[wfp]

To Cheeta;

That's a question with a 25,000 word answer!

My passion lies in the printed article, and today I continue to strive to drag the monthly edition kicking and screaming out of "hibernation." To answer your question accurately, the eventual fate of the printed monthly must first be decided.

I'd like to flesh out WFP's website regardless, and make good use of the medium. Developing WFP online should not be ignored, and hasn't been, though arguably it's light on content (it's just me over here - literally little to no time!).

Either way, print and web, or just web, WFP must function as any mainstream online magazine would, a real business with fax machines and spare pens, just like their print cousins, but without the print. It's a bloody dilemma I tell ya 'cause I'm really not sure there's tangible dollar support for an online WFP. Even worse than the print product infact! Without such WFP is rendered a hobby and would likely cease to develop in any suitable manner, 'cause I'd have to go to the big city and get a real job and therefore couldn't build an entire newspaper, print or web.

Of course, I see some amazing possibilities online, but I don't feel it, not like I feel it everytime a new issue comes off the presses. The paper is personable and memorable whereas most web content is a fleeting glimpse, and treated rather cheaply by the masses. It all comes and goes with no marvellous sense of presense and longevity. It mostly lacks heart and reverence whereas the printed paper lives forever!

WFP will live online, if not in print, but I really, honestly can't tell you right now, in what form and for what function. I am building new archives of seleced articles and photo galleries when time alows, and will always do so. One day sooner than later, for our subscribers, I will load every issue for online download, and expand exclusive photo galleries etc. but right now it's all hands on deck saving the paper.

Will keep you posted.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by wfp

To Cheeta;

That's a question with a 25,000 word answer!

My passion lies in the printed article, and today I continue to strive to drag the monthly edition kicking and screaming out of "hibernation." To answer your question accurately, the eventual fate of the printed monthly must first be decided.

I'd like to flesh out WFP's website regardless, and make good use of the medium. Developing WFP online should not be ignored, and hasn't been, though arguably it's light on content (it's just me over here - literally little to no time!).

Either way, print and web, or just web, WFP must function as any mainstream online magazine would, a real business with fax machines and spare pens, just like their print cousins, but without the print. It's a bloody dilemma I tell ya 'cause I'm really not sure there's tangible dollar support for an online WFP. Even worse than the print product infact! Without such WFP is rendered a hobby and would likely cease to develop in any suitable manner, 'cause I'd have to go to the big city and get a real job and therefore couldn't build an entire newspaper, print or web.

Of course, I see some amazing possibilities online, but I don't feel it, not like I feel it everytime a new issue comes off the presses. The paper is personable and memorable whereas most web content is a fleeting glimpse, and treated rather cheaply by the masses. It all comes and goes with no marvellous sense of presense and longevity. It mostly lacks heart and reverence whereas the printed paper lives forever!

WFP will live online, if not in print, but I really, honestly can't tell you right now, in what form and for what function. I am building new archives of seleced articles and photo galleries when time alows, and will always do so. One day sooner than later, for our subscribers, I will load every issue for online download, and expand exclusive photo galleries etc. but right now it's all hands on deck saving the paper.

Will keep you posted.

Chris, ever consider selling WFP? Maybe all the paper really needs is someone with a bit more business savy than you pocess. I've seen several business turn the WFP's corner, only to grow and become profitable enterprises after they were sold for a dollar, with the original owner being retained as an employee. There are very few individuals who are great at running a business, producing the product, selling the the product, and the million other things involved in operating a going concern. Maybe your one of those who can perform all of these tasks successfully, but then again the reallity of the matter is: "There's no bloody WFP on the shelves!" Maybe, just maybe, it's time to swallow, and say; "Okay, maybe I'm not perfect, its not everybody else's fault (doesn't that remind you of Kevan), and WFP needs help. I know you gave your word (which obviously in this case means absolutely nothing) never to respond to me again, but I challenge you to do so anyways. If you think I'm being a poophole to you, well poohoo. What good for the ........., the way you tore into the Helen everytime she was on TV, just to mention one example, just shows a similarity we share, although I would never employ that in a product I was trying to sell. Think about it.

[The Ref]

Comparing Chris to Kevan that is pretty low man!

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

Comparing Chris to Kevan that is pretty low man!

Your absolutely right, Ref. Sorry Kevan.[}]

[wfp]

OK, Robert, I talked to the Society of Self Imposed Bans and they said that as long as your post makes at least 60% sense, and no more than 40% nonsense, I can safely reply to you personally. Your last post was close enough so here goes.

You ask if I've considered selling WFP. Simply... NO... though I've considered a partnership and silent investors, both of which could put the dollars on the plate that WFP desperately needs. Selling would work for many products and services but I didn't build this paper solely on the principle of making a dollar or two, and to cash out, and I wouldn't hand it over to someone who's only real interest is to make a dollar or two. I'm no saint, but my intentions for WFP are far grander than filling bank accounts. If I sold her, those principles could quickly die with the new owner/s. Yet with a partner, or silent investors, the vision remains intact.

And hey, from a completely selfish perspective, one motivator for building WFP was to work for myself, putting my destiny squarely in my hands. No politics, no unions, no layoffs, no excuses, no money-motivated bosses or tyrant corporations. And believe me, if anyone at all was interested in buying WFP, they'd likely be affiliated with your current 1 1/2 media tyrant empires that have a long history of not giving a toss about football unless it comes with a big payoff. That's not WFP mate, sincerely.

So again, NO, I wouldn't sell it, but I've often considered sharing it at the ownership and financing levels. Certainly though, nobody has come knocking for such and I haven't sought them out. Wouldn't know where to start really.

As you note "Maybe, just maybe, it's time to swallow, and say; "Okay, maybe I'm not perfect, its not everybody else's fault (doesn't that remind you of Kevan), and WFP needs help."

Well, I've never claimed perfection, not in myself nor WFP. I and it are always works in progress!! I have never foolishly claimed infallibility but there are a great deal of individuals and organisations that could so easily make the difference, but choose not to... and to that I suggest culpability for not making the most of a great opportunity to further everyone's game. And finally, WFP does need help. I've never been proud enough to deny the obvious. WFP has always needed "help", and repeatedly I have asked for such from our football community. For that reason I have always openely spelled out the WFP situation to at least those wonderful souls who have lent a hand, or dollar, whatever, and those who might and/or should.

Ironically, you suggest I haven't admitted such, and yet in many earlier posts you take shots at me for asking for help, then proceed, instead of actually helping, to attempt to tear apart the credibility of myself, WFP and all it's contributors (except the sublime Peter Ferris). This of course all falls into your 40% nonsense category!

I'm not a businessman Robert. Never will be. Don't own a business suit. Haven't bought shoes in 20 years. Unfortunately, 20 of my 40 WFP jobs are business! Honestly, I expected by now that WFP would have been doing well enough to pay for a business-savvy footy savvy type to take those 20 jobs off my hands. Such a person might even have been a partner, or investor, which is possibly even better because then they really have something personal at stake.

And if you know next to nothing Robert, that would surely include you understanding that all your under-the-belt assaults on myself and WFP in entirety, are taken very personally. I love this paper. It is the culmination of approximately 20 years of design-related experience, including 4 years of literally, blood, sweat and tears, to get this paper where it was as of July. Believe me Robert, as corny as this sounds, if WFP dies, a huge part of me dies with it, and beyond me, there's many who've toiled with heart and soul to make WFP work for all of us. Maybe such will help you understand why I cannot be just an employee.

And maybe Robert, just settle down mate, and please, just recognise how much myself and WFP's contributors have achieved - with not a penny. You may not see it, but in many ways, what we've collectively done is largely unheard of out there. Ironically, this is both WFP's beauty and beast, 'cause I really believe that today, out there, people really don't understand the notion of mutual cooperation and mutual benefit. That we can do such likely scares them, or at least confuses many, and all too many just ask, what's in it for them!

Case in point:

I suggested to the president of BC's largest senior league, that for measly pennies per month from each of hundreds of teams/thousands of players, we could build 2-4 pages monthly on the league and its teams. To which he replied, so you want me to tell the board they should pay you X number of dollars. !!!! What he refuses to see is that his 10 cents, and the 10 cents from half the other leagues out there, would all pay for 48 bloody pages of their news every month. Rather, he and many others scoff, "So you want us to pay for editorial."

I'm not a suit, and I can't deal with that mentality described above. Maybe it's a battle that can't be won, by even the most skilled businessman. Contrary to your belief that WFP "failed" because it's crap, I believe the situation would be dramatically different had so many not subscribed to the attitude of the league president. Now I suppose they are not so much to blame for WFP's possible demise, as they are guilty of not lifting a finger to help.

I'm proud of what we've done to-date. And the dedication of so many contributors and the enthusiasm of so many readers, always reminds me of why I, we the builders, should be proud. WFP could always be better, but what we have is worth far more building upon than tearing down and waiting, bitching, for some Conrad Black to magically appear and sink all his time and wealth into building another publication for Canadians to tear down again, or simply dismiss.

[Robert]

How many dollars are required to put issue 57 on the store shelves?

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

How many dollars are required to put issue 57 on the store shelves?

None of your business Robert, or at the very least not appropriate for discussion in a public forum.

Just how dumb are you to ask such a stupid question here?

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

None of your business Robert, or at the very least not appropriate for discussion in a public forum.

Just how dumb are you to ask such a stupid question here?

Who asked you anything? Talk about sticking one's nose and value judgements where their not asked for. If your publicly asking for help, then your publicly leaving yourself open for questions.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

...your publicly leaving yourself open for questions.

Which is exactly what you did by posting what you did in a public forum.

Oh, and...

-your

+you're

[Robert]

So do you want to try and get issue 57 on the shelves, or what? Nevermind trying to sell a page, or a part of a page, you need to sell the whole issue or there is no issue, and since you don't have the money to do so, it's time to answer some questions.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

I love you.

Which is exactly what you did by posting what you did in a public forum.

Oh, and...

-your

+you're

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Who asked you anything? Talk about sticking one's nose and value judgements where their not asked for.

Ummmm... last time I checked this was a public forum?

quote:Originally posted by Robert

If your publicly asking for help, then your publicly leaving yourself open for questions.

Sure, but do you honestly believe Chris is going to discuss the finances of his privately owned business with you in an open, public forum? If you do then you're even dumber than I thought.

[analyst]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

How many dollars are required to put issue 57 on the store shelves?

Robert, are you offering some of your money. If you're not offering, then you should not expect a reply. That doesn't mean you can't ask, but are you offering or just playing games?

[wfp]

To quote Robert; "So do you want to try and get issue 57 on the shelves, or what? Nevermind trying to sell a page, or a part of a page, you need to sell the whole issue..."

Oh Robert, what to do with you?

You're not even close mate. It's not about selling a page, or one single issue. It's about generating the means to produce endless issues, and actually grow the paper rather than etching out another one by the skin of our teeth.

To address the above, and Analyst's question to Robert...

Helter skelter donations are not the answer. A number of wonderful individuals have already offered such but I've humbly, most gratefully asked them to keep it in their wallets because simply scratching together enough for one issue with no firm future prospects is just another recipe for disaster I'm afraid.

Neither our advertisers nor distributors, not even our readers can be expected to support a completely irregular publication. We need both consistency in repeat revenue and content to bridge the threshold.

Regardless, as Richard suggests, a public forum is not really the place to discuss exacting finances and inner-workings of a private company. But you can have this... building an issue is far cheaper than most undertstand, and far more than WFP can currently afford!!

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by wfp

To quote Robert; "So do you want to try and get issue 57 on the shelves, or what? Nevermind trying to sell a page, or a part of a page, you need to sell the whole issue..."

Oh Robert, what to do with you?

You're not even close mate. It's not about selling a page, or one single issue. It's about generating the means to produce endless issues, and actually grow the paper rather than etching out another one by the skin of our teeth.

To address the above, and Analyst's question to Robert...

Helter skelter donations are not the answer. A number of wonderful individuals have already offered such but I've humbly, most gratefully asked them to keep it in their wallets because simply scratching together enough for one issue with no firm future prospects is just another recipe for disaster I'm afraid.

Neither our advertisers nor distributors, not even our readers can be expected to support a completely irregular publication. We need both consistency in repeat revenue and content to bridge the threshold.

Regardless, as Richard suggests, a public forum is not really the place to discuss exacting finances and inner-workings of a private company. But you can have this... building an issue is far cheaper than most undertstand, and far more than WFP can currently afford!!

"It's about generating the means to produce endless issues</u>, and actually grow the paper" Would it be too impolite to question what you mean here? What ever happened to producing and selling a quality product today, which will ensure the priviledge and ability to produce another one tomorrow?

As far as Richard is concerned, F him and his etiquette after the things he has posted. Reviewing his participation on this thread alone, what has he really contributed other than his distain for me? Do you think I give a F what Richard thinks about me?

You might have a private company, but as soon as you went public in seeking help, you forfeited the right to say this is not the proper place to discuss this. I might not be even close, however, I find that kind of rich coming for the guy who's invested tens of thousands of dollars and four years of blood. "I didn't build this paper solely on the principle of making a dollar or two, and to cash out, and I wouldn't hand it over to someone who's only real interest is to make a dollar or two. I'm no saint, but my intentions for WFP are far grander than filling bank accounts." Now please tell me how any business is going to survive with this kind of principle? Any wonder no one has forth with partnership offers, silent or otherwise?

[wfp]

Not impolite, just ridiculous on your part. WFP has produced a quality product for 3 1/2 years and as is obvious that has not provided the sustinance for future issues. Scraping together one extra issue now is just foolish, and as clearly explained in my last post, neither advertisers, distributors nor readers would be throwing support at WFP on such a haphazard basis. Get real Robert. Think before you write please, and read what you're replying to, before you reply.

Richard has contributed much disdain for you because you repeatedly demand such from people, including myself and anyone else who wanted a decent debate without your gutter input. As someone asked me recently, "Why isn't Robert banned from messing up these threads?" Good question really, cause although I'm a big fan of freedom of speech, your rantings have wasted an awful lot of everyone's time and energy.

Such as your closing paragraph in your last post. I am more than willing to privately dislose more intimate business details to individuals who are honestly wanting to help, but this forum is still not the place to discuss exact X number of dollars etc etc.

Lastly, if my notions of doing business honestly, and putting the integrity of the product before anyone's bank account, are the ultimate reason for WFP's demise, then so be it, because I have no intentions of doing business in a fashion any less respectful of values I believe are all important. To illustrate my resolve; I have in the past turned down advertising offers that would have filled our account because those offers came with catches that clearly crossed lines of etiquette, common sense and fair play, and clearly put the whims of the advertiser specific before the needs of our readers, and the community's open forum opportunity

[Richard]

What an ass the man is!