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Canadian soccer fans don't read much ...


Robert

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It's very hard to "lighten up" with guys like Robert, as Blue & White suggests, when they spend extraordinary amounts of time and energy trying to rip holes in the efforts of others. In Robert's specific case he has gone over the edge so many times it has obviously gone way beyond taking the piss or constructive critique. Part of this community's problem is that constructive, mutual effort is the last thing on many minds and their destructive nature is sinking the entire ship, not just WFP or ISM.

AS B&W notes, WFP is a BC-centric mag, but it isn't called 'BC Football Pages' because I've always envisioned taking it to a broader national scale with the same notion as most, that we need a national coverage publication, and our many cross-country subscribers validate such aspirations. Unfortunately we are nowhere near having the resources to do that. In fact, we're closer to being out of business entirely!

I appreciate B&W's ideas for a national rag, and a possible merge, but frankly, the mechanics and convolutions are overwhelming and just not a good fit. A half & half styled mag suggests B&W is smoking much better stuff than I am :-). The previous efforts mentioned were a wee promotional venture between our pubs, to support each others efforts to build not one, but at least two full time footy rags. Not everyone would be happy with WFP so an alternative is needed. The four pages we ran in ISM were hard to do what with timing of pubs and no time on my hands, but still, it was good for us both and in a small way we demonstrated that not everything in this screwed up universe has to be about tearing things down, and competition to the death. ie. If two competing pubs can work together to prosper both, and the entire Canadian football scene, surely that would rub off on someone, though arguably never Robert!

The advertisers are the long term answer, but if WFP doesn't have enough now and ISM obviously fell short, no amount of merging papers immediately pays the bills, since technically, there's still not enough advertisers to pay for a bigger paper. Boggling, isn't it!

Still, regardless, your suggestions are positive, constructive and attempting to work with what we have, and in the grand scheme, that's exactly what we all need, on and off the field.

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"The Vees did link to WFP on the front page. The link seems to have been in the shuffle of Jarrek's latest re-design, but I'm sure if contacted he, or anyone else associated with updating it, would be happy to put it back up" - Marc

Please note I have asked via this forum and two direct emails, at least four times in the past 20 months yet still no fastlink and still, the buried link (under 'Links') lists the old web address, defunct as of January 2004.

One point being, how much asking do I need to do.

Second point being; since we've featured Voyaguers material now and then don't you think it's in all our best interests to link WFP up front.

Thirdly; did all the other linked entities have to beg at all for a fastlink up front, before or after the redesign - I think not!

Ya know, this is all so painfully trivial but could have made a positive difference, and really, how hard is it to add WFP to an existing list?!!!!!!!

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To WFP, I sincerely hope you can sustain the energy and dedication to keeping your mag alive as it adds something to the dismal soccer landscape in this country. I wish you well.

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quote:Originally posted by wfp

"The Vees did link to WFP on the front page. The link seems to have been in the shuffle of Jarrek's latest re-design, but I'm sure if contacted he, or anyone else associated with updating it, would be happy to put it back up" - Marc

Please note I have asked via this forum and two direct emails, at least four times in the past 20 months yet still no fastlink and still, the buried link (under 'Links') lists the old web address, defunct as of January 2004.

One point being, how much asking do I need to do.

Second point being; since we've featured Voyaguers material now and then don't you think it's in all our best interests to link WFP up front.

Thirdly; did all the other linked entities have to beg at all for a fastlink up front, before or after the redesign - I think not!

Ya know, this is all so painfully trivial but could have made a positive difference, and really, how hard is it to add WFP to an existing list?!!!!!!!

Fair enough.

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A merged ISM and WFP could be scaled down in size initially, according to the amount of revenue from sponsors.

Tough to merge two people's personal pets, but really.... it there any viable alternative? Can this country honestly support two (largely) regional footie mags?

I say you two need to swallow your respective prides and have a real go at merging these puppies.

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Robert should have never posted that email since it was a private message. Although, there's nothing "bad" in it, and it has jump started a discussion, so you may benefit in the end.

A merger is a non-starter. They are two completely different styles. One style would have to win. Although, they could work together, for example if both went to bi-monthly and published on alternate months. Or even set-up one corporation to own both. They could cut costs (better printing deal, better distribution deal, etc.), offer potential advertisers more (higher circulation, national reach, etc.), pay writers, offer deals to subscribers, etc.

Listen Chris, I really hope you can get it back up and running again. And I promise this time I'll get off my big fat lazy ass and find a stamp. However, and I realize hyperbole is your style, it won't make a difference if you stop publishing.

Sorry, but that's the truth. That last comment is with regards to your "State of the Union Address", and the comment about, "the glorious possibilities this publication holds for all Canadians", and all the Gods talk (that must be some good **** you're smoking out there). All the Under 7 super cup tournaments are not going to be cancelled if you stop publishing. (That's not a shot at you, it's a shot at where Canadian soccer's focus is).

You've been publishing for what, 4 years, ISM was around for about 10, many others have tried. Don't take it personally. Maybe Canadians really just don't care.

But never mind the negativity, I really hope you find a way to start publishing again, because I do believe the printed page is still perceived as more valuable than a web site. And I promise, I will subscribe this time.

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There is a great deal of truth to Elias' comments and damn, I can't argue with his "big, fat, lazy ass." Maybe, just maybe it doesn't really matter if we live or die. Maybe the time-honoured apathy under the maple tree will bury WFP like manner before it, but hey, I'm a dreamer, a quirly, somewhat ornery optimist, and damnit maan, I will hold the line till the line breaks. I'll be gratefully expecting Elias' subscription in a couple of months :-)

Cheers

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quote:Originally posted by wfp

There is a great deal of truth to Elias' comments and damn, I can't argue with his "big, fat, lazy ass." Maybe, just maybe it doesn't really matter if we live or die. Maybe the time-honoured apathy under the maple tree will bury WFP like manner before it, but hey, I'm a dreamer, a quirly, somewhat ornery optimist, and damnit maan, I will hold the line till the line breaks. I'll be gratefully expecting Elias' subscription in a couple of months :-)

Cheers

To satisfy all the technical types out there. This message is private. For the MadMan's eyes only. "Oh yeah, sure. Give up. Quit. Bury that freaking little PosterBoy of yours. You *****."

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quote:Originally posted by wfp

So Robert walks into the doctor's office exclaiming, "Doctor, Doctor, I can't seem to make any friends you phukking arsshole"!!

Being slightly more objective about it all, maybe the real reason both publications struglled is the quality of the product. In my opinion both ISM and WFP were fortunate to have a quality contributor each. ISM had Dennis Fritter and WFP had Peter Ferris writing for them. No disrespect to all the other contributors, but these two always produced material that made for an enjoyable read. Chances are that these two gentlemen don't collect clippings of every published article they penned. By having both contribute to a joint effort would give a national Canadian soccer publication at least twice the quality either ISM or WFP could deliver on their own. Alfons and Chris could be responsible as Eastern and Western editors, which would give a greater and more in depth overall perspective of the Canadian soccer scene, as a number of Voyageurs have commented that ISM is more of an Eastern mag and WFP caters more to the west.

Now it's understandable that both Chris and Alfons are feeling the effects of their challenges. Alfons has been more quite, and Chris, well Chris has been Chris, and I'm cool with both. However, before to much rust forms on the printing presses out east and west, why not consider doing what you two love doing together, or you can both continue to do what your doing individually, which is dik.

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Fortunately Robert has solved the entire mystery. All this time I never realised both WFP and ISM were printing complete crap. So definitely, lets merge them both and print twice as much crap together. Simply brilliant. Apparantly Robert is a lot smarter than he sounds!

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quote:Originally posted by wfp

Fortunately Robert has solved the entire mystery. All this time I never realised both WFP and ISM were printing complete crap. So definitely, lets merge them both and print twice as much crap together. Simply brilliant. Apparantly Robert is a lot smarter than he sounds!

Jeez. Chill Chris. All I'm saying is the quality of writers submitting material are a reflection of the publication they appear in. Like it's pretty easy for someone to get a bit of space in WFP, as you even printed some of the "crap" I submitted. I ask you, what kind of quality do you expect from writers that are working for free? Are these people going to invest x number of hours researching material without a return? Are they people who have honed their writing skills? Yes, it's nice to see one's name in print, but how well are you going to compete against a magazine that employs professional writers?

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To flog the dead horse, Robert; It's often a case of not what you say but how you choose to say it. Frequently you make sense then mix it with vile nonsense, and in the course of such your point is obscured and your argument lost and the process (this thread) that could be all-productive is run through the gutter instead.

Earlier, Cheeta offered a truly proactive scenario regarding an entire compliment of Voyageurs-driven Canadiana news and results, to appear in WFP, and yet you insist on first hanging myself, then WFP's cast of extremely dedicated, frequently very talented, unpaid contributors.

For everyone who's ever put an hour or a weekend or an entire month of their time and passion into World Football Pages, regardless of what title or experience they carry, I would like to offer you, Robert, a nice cup of shut the phukk up! Seriously, you are really pissing me off. You may attack me all you wish but you have absolutely no right whatsoever damning a group of individuals who have set an incredible example for shiits like yourself.

Some are in fact learning the ropes, some are even seasoned pros but they all share a common trait or two; they are passionate about this game; they are passionate about building this paper and doing all within their reasonable means to proliferate our game; and they are making the most of what we have - a fledging little paper that needs a hand, not your sledghammer.

At this point I would humbly request to the board mod, that Cheeta's well laid-out idea be placed in a new thread, so that we might explore such without wading through all this degenerate nonsense. They were good ideas and would make an excellent Voyageurs page. And again, if the V-powers that be rolled with that initiative, I would do all I could to print such without a penny out of Voyageurs pockets.

Meanwhile, Richard, cheers for pointing out the self-evident, and Robert, our dialogue is done. I will no longer respond to your posts. Rage all you wish.

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quote:Originally posted by Robert

Which part of the indefinate article didn't you understand, Richard? The a, or the a?;)

If it had been a definate (sic) article your point may have been relevant but tell us, who is the competition you think WFP is facing - real or in your fevered imagination - just tell us?
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quote:Originally posted by Richard

If it had been a definate (sic) article your point may have been relevant but tell us, who is the competition you think WFP is facing - real or in your fevered imagination - just tell us?

Okay, just for Richard, the nitpicker. The quote you seem to have a problem with I assume is the following; "Yes, it's nice to see one's name in print, but how well are you going to compete against a magazine that employs professional writers?" Where per se am I referring to a soccer specific magazine? Exactly! You have validated your own status.

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The original intent of this thread was to investigate objectively the reasons attributing to the recent failure of two Canadian soccer periodicals. Chris, the editor of the now defunct World Football Pages, chose to get involved by defending some of the examinations made. There is no need to defend yourself Chris. The verdict of "the magistrates of our football community" has been rendered, as WFP is no longer offered for sale on the shelves of local retailers. That my friend is the sad reality of this matter. Obviously it hurts, but I am not to blame for this, as I have supported each of your 56 published issues, in which I have contributed in several. Once again, the goal here is to learn what could be done differently, so that any future Canadian soccer publications may have a better chance at survival in the merciless industry of business. Despite your recentments against me, I wish you every success in the future, and thank you for a great three year effort.

All the best, Robert.

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"Yeah, yeah. Whatever."

Kenny Blankenship

MXC

And on that note, blah, blah, blah. Moving on, a couple o' things...

1). Fair's fair. A sponsorship is a sponsorship. If the Vs aren't interested in the scheme I've still got a few cards up my sleeve. Which includes my beer league team, cashing in a basement full of emptys (long overdue anyway. Make the Wee Elf way happy to-boot), and a few other angles I'm still working. Whichever way, the Voyageurs are doomed to getting a letterhead in the rag if She gets to rolling a-gin. If they want it or no...

2). Gonna need help on this Canucks abroad focus though. Like I wrote, this is the Tail Gunner's element so not to name names, (Oy, MacCarthy you slacker!) or suggest anyone commit to something they haven't the time for, but how about some of the lads suck it up, show a willingness to have a word with whoever it is that they might have contacts with (Barca Jeff? hel-lo?) and drum up some material here. It's all for the kids dammit! Show 'em to stick to it, grow some testicales, and have a European adventure while their still young. And I think this is a pretty good way for it. A bit of print advertising our lads overseas doing what it is they love to do.

3). Failing a little assistance from the Vs at large, I'll simply steal other peoples hard work, harass the innocent into compliance, and generaly be more mind-boggelingly annoying than usual. And all accompanied by my usual high standards of spelling and grammar.

So. For the good of the english language everywhere, and more especially on our site (that little footy refuge) speak up.

P.S. Ha! Already working on a CSA crossword. Richard, you'll love it.

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quote:Originally posted by Robert

Okay, just for Richard, the nitpicker. The quote you seem to have a problem with I assume is the following; "Yes, it's nice to see one's name in print, but how well are you going to compete against a magazine that employs professional writers?" Where per se am I referring to a soccer specific magazine? Exactly! You have validated your own status.

Why should that be relevant really when:

a) he does not have the money to pay contributors

B) there IS NO COMPETITION OUT THERE let alone any that employs professional writers, or even unpaid non-professional writers for that matter!!!!

Belittling those who are willing to contribute for no material compensation - and some of those folks are every bit as good and talented as the paid professionals - is hardly constructive, indeed it is positively destructive.

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quote:2). Gonna need help on this Canucks abroad focus though. Like I wrote, this is the Tail Gunner's element so not to name names, (Oy, MacCarthy you slacker!) or suggest anyone commit to something they haven't the time for, but how about some of the lads suck it up, show a willingness to have a word with whoever it is that they might have contacts with (Barca Jeff? hel-lo?)
Well seeing as I've been mentioned a couple of times I should reply. Let me preface this with my admiration for what Chris is trying (or tried?) to do. At the same time I have some philosophical and practical reservations of why I wouldn't be involved in this venture (not that he's asked). I don't expect anybody to agree, they're just my reasons. Rambling, tangential rant mode now on...

Whenever it was, 1998 or 99 when I first found the Voyageurs I was struck by what I read was kind of the Voyageurs manifesto (why they were formed). As I remember it was to cheer on, educate and inform on the Canadian game and not (as I read into it) the goings on abroad. After all you can find information and an audience to discuss foreign teams/players easily, anywhere.

Which brings me to WFP. First, why is it called World Football Pages. In Canada it's soccer. This kind of Euro poseurism I truly can't understand. I realise BC has a large British culture but when the national governing body is the Canadian Soccer Association, I just don't get (or like) the name.

Second of course, the poster boy. I realize that Chris uses it as a symbol to represent the style of his magazine. I understand that. I also understand that Chris couldn't back down from that even if he wanted to (and I know he doesn't). But please understand this. That's not the kind of representation I would want to see help grow the game in this country nor will it be, regardless of what Chris or I think. If people get so involved to the point of getting their self esteem through a soccer team like some followers do in Europe then we should be pitied for sure. I find the poster boy offensive for what it represents culturally, not the kid flipping the bird. Everytime I see that it reminds of how kids grow up so quickly today and it kind of bothers me, combine that with the hooligan mentality and well...veto from me.

Most of the following is not directed at WFP but kind of how I see the Canadian soccer scene and perhaps a future publication.

In Canada, the parent who wakes up at six a.m. to take their kid to hockey practice is lionized. (Tim Horton commercials et al) The soccer mom who car pools four kids to their biweekly soccer game is ridiculed. What the hooligan wannabe types don't understand is that these are the people who are growing the game. They are registering little kids for the first time, being volunteer coaches, raising money for equipment, yet are still seen as objects of derision. You want a symbol, hows bout Lois from Malcolm in the Middle.

The sanity of trying to start a soccer magazine in this country has to be questioned. In the late 80's before the Internet I used to buy a couple of Canadian sports magazines because they were the only place at the time where you could read feature stories on things like CFL or Canadian athletes. Two magazines I know of went under. So if a general sports magazine can't make it in the 80's before the Internet (and info dissemination everywhere) what chance does a specialised one have now. Is the market there for such a small segmentation? As Daniel said I can get that soccer info online.

Instead of a male demographic perhaps a secondary female demographic focus might be more suitable. You can't dispute the loyalty and popularity of Elaine's site and the ratings the women's games get on TV. A few more soccer mom readers a few less hooligans might be the answer.:)

Speaking of Elaine, going after her was again patronizing and classless. She's the hardest working loyal fan in the country, it's her personal website (she can run it how she pleases) and she gets grief from WFP? It smacks of jealousy over someone who is able to have close contact with the women's programs over us here that have none whatsoever with the men (excluding Jeffrey's recent venture).

Which bring me to what Cheeta said. The problem is we don't have contact with any powers that be. I have to beg posters for confirming info on players. I can't think of anyone who posts here on a semi regular basis that has any close contact or intimate knowledge of the Canadian soccer scene. Again there might be a handful that do but they're not talking. Insider info here is exceedingly rare. We constantly look forward to Neil Davidson to tell us what is going on.

How ridiculous is it that a kid gets signed by Blackburn (as told to me by a Blackburn fan) and nobody can confirm who he is. How ridiculous is it that somebody hasn't been involved in or have news of the Toronto stadium talks. Was it a lucky break that the Vancouver Southsiders cracked the Kerfoot case? No. Why none of that in Ontario?

Here's what we're up against. There's a message board (SFN) that I found a while back that had a Canadian soccer forum. Most of the posts were by Balkan immigrants saying how Canada soccer sux and how their Upper Slobovian homeland was superior to Canada and also the enemy Lower Slobovian teams in the region.

Well as many of you know the Canada sux thing just pisses me off. If you're going to say something like that you better back it up. Most of those guys couldn't name one guy on the CMNT or saw a game for that matter and yet they are informed enough to say Canada sux. To me that's just an invitation to flood them with news stories about Canadians being scouted or signed by the Big Four and to post the ol' MOACA. Beat them over the head with the facts as it were.

My mission is if a ten year old kid goes to one of these sites for the first time he's going to see this and not ill informed troll posts. Actually SFN has had a reshuffling (old posts gone) and now almost every post (mine) is CMNT news and player signing info which have been mostly good lately. The first thing people now see is positive news not the usual Canada sux routine.

Back to WFP, Chris thank you for your undertaking but I've noticed in some of your posts you seem to say we owe you something. The Canadian soccer community, Voyageurs, CSA owe you nothing. If you want to beat your head against the wall that's your business. It's the same here when the ol' Canadian negativity comes in. You gotta roll with the punches and don't let the Village Idiot bother you or move on.

If your magazine had more similar philosophies with what I believe I'd help you out the best I could. Unfortunately that's not the case but that doesn't prevent me from wishing you the best and hope you succeed on terms you can live with.

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