MLS aiming to be North American League

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

What, Toronto gets warmer because it joins MLS? Are there reasons why a CSL is restricted to a USL schedule?

$$$

In all likelihood, if these teams got cash to operate longer seasons, we aren't talking about another CSL, but a Canadian MLS with large stadiums & everthing, not teams that are playing out of public parks. I'd love it if we could, but of course I don't think its realistic at this time.

[An Observer]

Thanks Gordon for your very reasoned point of view. I think you have made some very good arguments and rational ones for the merits of a Canadian league over the MLS route. I do disagree however.

1. I really think you overestimate the benefit to Saskatoon playing Calgary versus Winnipeg playing Minnesota. I do not think that it makes that much difference. Moreover, I do think 3 sides in the MLS is very realistic and through those sides, the whole profile of soccer will be raised in Canada which have a filter down effect. It also seems sides like the Impact and the Whitecaps have done a very good job of making "minor league" status work for soccer so I no reason why it cannot continue to work with other cities when the MLS is in Canada. But most importantly, it is much easier to grow from 1 MLS side to 3 MLS sides, from a 2 USL 1st Division sides to 5 or 6 over time when the right owners are in place with the right facilities. By trying to go from 3 to 8 or so, you run the real risk that a couple fail and with it the league. And Kerfoot and Saputo are highly unlikely to put themselves in that position. So the only alternative would be for CSA to refuse to sanction and MLS side and work to get more Canadian sides in the USL in order to eventually break away and form a Canadian league. I think that is a very risky strategy.

2. I think you are wholly unrealistic for the many points already made on this board if you think the CSL would provide a full-time working enviroment for any one. YOu can't expect Vancouver or Montreal to prop up the league. And to say the MLS would not pay better salaries that the CSL is nonsense to be honest. Of course it would in Toronto and if the attendence lacked, there would be no MLS side there and frankly, no room for a viable CSL side better than what you currently have with the Lynx.

3. I would expect a CSL to start with a shorter schedule (similar to the USL) as to be honest that would make sound business sense as to start with a longer schedule would severely increase your overheads (and likely your losses in the first few years. More over, they would not want to take the risk of losing fans in cold April or November days in the beginning. They could only expand the schedule when they started to become established

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Putting aside the differing 8 team scenarios, you need apro league to train players in a pro environment. That is not to sdayt some kid going through PCSL might not eventually develop, but his channces are greater in he is in a professional full time training environment, which none of those leagues are.

Can you explain this a little better? I'm confused because of the following analogous situation:

We made a decision in Canada, sometime in the mid-60's, to stop professional hockey clubs from training amateur hockey players. Granted, our major junior system would rival almost any foreign professional league, except for one key point:

At 20-21 years old a Canadian hockey player, who is considered fully ready and able to compete at a high professional level (ie. AHL) has earned but a few thousand in meal money and signing bonus and HOPEFULLY has a university education.

Why can't the PCSL and CPSL offer a similar situation to Canadian footballers?

The main problem I see is a total lack of infrastructure. In the suburb where I grew up there is a fully functional 5,000 seat arena which hosts Jr. B and minor hockey. If Surrey United had a 5,000 seat stadium we'd probably start a thread about it!

But lack of infrastructure is much more easily overcome at the amateur level. York U. was a great example of that. When the chips were down, what did the university ultimately go for?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Can you explain this a little better? I'm confused because of the following analogous situation:

We made a decision in Canada, sometime in the mid-60's, to stop professional hockey clubs from training amateur hockey players. Granted, our major junior system would rival almost any foreign professional league, except for one key point:

At 20-21 years old a Canadian hockey player, who is considered fully ready and able to compete at a high professional level (ie. AHL) has earned but a few thousand in meal money and signing bonus and HOPEFULLY has a university education.

Why can't the PCSL and CPSL offer a similar situation to Canadian footballers?

"We" actually didn't make the decision to stop training yout players, that decision was made by the NHL in reposnse to expansion. They also eliminated territorial picks which allowed Montreal to grab the top two Quebec players and Toronto the top 2 Ontario players every year, which of course, is hardly comparable to grabbing the best players in Mass., Cal,. or Penn (maybe not so much today, but in 1967 it surely was). Prior to this decision Canadian hockey was pro driven, the Regina Pats, FREX a feeder team for the Montreal Canadians,a legacy that lives on in Midget AAA team Regina Pat Canadians. But you do hit the nail on the head: our junior teams and leagues are strong and viable. Attendance and corporate support is sufficient to keep the system thriving. But if the Blades, or any SJHL team for that matter, were playing in front of 100 fans, they way a well supported CPSL team might, they couldn't afford to operate. And the NHL feeder system would dry up.

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

The main problem I see is a total lack of infrastructure. In the suburb where I grew up there is a fully functional 5,000 seat arena which hosts Jr. B and minor hockey. If Surrey United had a 5,000 seat stadium we'd probably start a thread about it!

But lack of infrastructure is much more easily overcome at the amateur level. York U. was a great example of that. When the chips were down, what did the university ultimately go for?

Infrastructure is a problem, certainly, that would have to be addressed. But, there have been several proposals for a 10,000 seat stadium in Sakatoon, and as of a few days ago, the U of S got a corporate grant to upgrade Griffiths Stadium* - field, lights, seating closer to 10,000 (from approx 6,00 now more or less). If Saskatoon can do it, realistically, what is preventing other larger communities from doing so? If the york university proposal wasn't for a 25,000 seat stadium but a more reasonably priced 10-15,000 seat stadium would they have bailed? Of course, the Federal money might not have beeen there so who knows. But the basic question remains: If Sasaktoon can do it, why can't others?

* Important to note that this is not a FIFA sized pitch. It may have been had there been any active coordination of soccer interests.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

Thanks Gordon for your very reasoned point of view. I think you have made some very good arguments and rational ones for the merits of a Canadian league over the MLS route. I do disagree however.

Thank you for the kind words. We are indeed agreeing to disagree here, but the conversation has been enjoyable and worthwhile from my perspective.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

1. I really think you overestimate the benefit to Saskatoon playing Calgary versus Winnipeg playing Minnesota. I do not think that it makes that much difference. Moreover, I do think 3 sides in the MLS is very realistic and through those sides, the whole profile of soccer will be raised in Canada which have a filter down effect. It also seems sides like the Impact and the Whitecaps have done a very good job of making "minor league" status work for soccer so I no reason why it cannot continue to work with other cities when the MLS is in Canada. But most importantly, it is much easier to grow from 1 MLS side to 3 MLS sides, from a 2 USL 1st Division sides to 5 or 6 over time when the right owners are in place with the right facilities. By trying to go from 3 to 8 or so, you run the real risk that a couple fail and with it the league. And Kerfoot and Saputo are highly unlikely to put themselves in that position. So the only alternative would be for CSA to refuse to sanction and MLS side and work to get more Canadian sides in the USL in order to eventually break away and form a Canadian league. I think that is a very risky strategy.

I kind of think that if I am expected to take on faith the suggestions that Toronto only supports "major league" sports and that Vancouver can't survive without Portland or Seattle (unless its in the MLS) I shoudl be able to expect that my assertion that Saskatoon needs Candian rivals on faith as well . On a more serious note, Saskatoon, and every Canadian City, for that matter, has established sporting rivalries to one extend or another through a variety of different sporting relationships. Other than Toronto, and to a lessor extent Montreal and Vancouver, this is simply not true. Even Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg and Quebec, despite their NHL presense, have greater rivalries with other Canadian cities than they do random american ones. There is a reson Derby matches are a big deal, why Calgary gears up far more for the Oilers than the Predators and why Labour Day is a big deal in the CFL. A Minnesota-Richmond USL game would not have dragged 5K fans to Griffiths Stadium.

I won't get into the rest of the paragraph as we have done that one a few times and I think we are familair with where the other stands:)

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

2. I think you are wholly unrealistic for the many points already made on this board if you think the CSL would provide a full-time working enviroment for any one. YOu can't expect Vancouver or Montreal to prop up the league. And to say the MLS would not pay better salaries that the CSL is nonsense to be honest. Of course it would in Toronto and if the attendence lacked, there would be no MLS side there and frankly, no room for a viable CSL side better than what you currently have with the Lynx.

Well, to start, I never said CSL would pay better, or even the same as MLS. But looking at USL attendance figures, and the greater sponsorship possibilities a CSL brings as opposed to the USL, I'd expect CSL to start off paying USL salaries and move up from there. I note that several canadian USL players: Jordan, Gervais, Sutton, Grande, Fletcher to name recent examples, have turned down moves to MLS from USL sides for reasons of pay. So if MLS can't pay its players more than what USL players make, how is it that they train year round? How good is the salary down there if you are not a top 3 player?

I don't envision CSL bring home the boys from Europe (and realisitically how many will MLS bring back? I also expect that a sound league is going see losses in the intial years of operation, although losses not near though what MLS racks up - $15 million last year, $250,000,000+ over the decade.

I think a living wage is possible, not enough to keep the Grande's and Gerba's from going to Scandinavia. Maybe Ted can correct me, but didn't the CUSL proposal come up with a million dollars a year per team from a single sponsorship source and did not make any real efforts to find any other sponsorship sources? Maybe its a terrible leap of faith, Observer, but as a reasonable rational person, I can't help but think that if Rochester (250,000) can draw 11,000 and Columbus (720,000) 14,000, that cities of comparable size in canada can't approach that number as well with time, reasonable effort and decent facilities. Those kinds of numbers support, In my opinion, financial viability. Now, yes, there are question marks about whether we have the will for "reasonable effort and decent facilities" and I am not saying its a slam dunk. But I have to wonder what might have happened, and still might, if the CSA hired someone and gave them the CUSL proposal and a travel budget to take two years, go out and find prospective owners, sponsors and work with local associations on targeted facilities (also known as leadership).

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

3. I would expect a CSL to start with a shorter schedule (similar to the USL) as to be honest that would make sound business sense as to start with a longer schedule would severely increase your overheads (and likely your losses in the first few years. More over, they would not want to take the risk of losing fans in cold April or November days in the beginning. They could only expand the schedule when they started to become established

Undoubtedly all true, but we are both talking about the long term I presume. And again, under my scenario, there were no games in April or November. November in the Prairies is definitely too cold for Soccer : Indoor training only (for which, BTW, Saskatoon has the facility, unused during winter work day hours)

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The TO guys say that MLS would draw bigger than CSL, maybe its true, they know their town better than I do, but equally, I know that Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Edmonton will draw more playing CSL than they would in USL.

There is a saying that goes 'different horses for different courses'. No-one in Toronto or Vancouver is forcing any other Canadian city to join the MLS, but we are being heaped with names and criticism just for doing whats best to promote soccer in our cities. Like the Old Firm in Scotland, TO people are bored of seeing the Lynx beating weak opposition in a weak league. Like the Old Firm, we want to move to a more competitive league. [)]

All joking aside, why not have the Whitecaps and Leafs join the MLS and field second teams in a CSL? I think someone mentioned that somewhere? That way everyone will be happy. You get a CSL, and Vancouver and Toronto get MLS too. Its clear that in Vancouver and TO cross-border rivalries with US cities have surpassed rivalries with Canadian cities. There was a time when Hamilton was Toronto's great CFL and municipal rival. Today thanks to GO Train service, Hamilton is increasingly seen as a bedroom suburb of Toronto! People in TO want to compete against New York, not Hamilton, VanCity guys want to beat Seattle not Victoria. We have to recognize that in both VanCity and TO the appeal of a CSL is greatly diminished, as much as it is still strong in Calgary and Saskatoon. Even in Europe Champions League football is aspired to over and above domestic league play now. We have to find a solution that satisfies both sets of needs and aspirations

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Well the top rivalries or toughest ticket to get for hockey in Montreal has always been Boston. This was surpassed for a while when the Nordiques were around and maybe today The leafs are up there also. But the Boston is still a top draw. In Toronto, I could dafely say that its the Habs followed by Detroit, Ottawa,Buffalo. Ottawa may be moving up, but they need to beat the leafs in the playoffs. I am quite certain that Phily and jersey are much tougher opponents to get tickets for than the other Canadian teams.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

There is a saying that goes 'different horses for different courses'. No-one in Toronto or Vancouver is forcing any other Canadian city to join the MLS, but we are being heaped with names and criticism just for doing whats best to promote soccer in our cities. Like the Old Firm in Scotland, TO people are bored of seeing the Lynx beating weak opposition in a weak league. Like the Old Firm, we want to move to a more competitive league. [)]

I could see that being true (the beating on the weak opposition) for Montreal and Vancouver. But the Lynx? Remind me of the last time the Lynx made the A-League Playoffs. The lynx are the weak opposition! I don't generally disagree that there is a market disparity within Canada. Certainly the difference between a Toronto and a Vancouver even is quite pronounced let alone Toronto and Winnipeg. But Toronto, last time I looked is in the CFL, is part of Canada. Your Old Firm analogy shows that the interests of a few "big" teams is always going to be subservient tot he larger interests of a national league: Both UEFA and SFA were opposed to the move becasue it wasn't in the best interests of the game. Obviously, to support the national league concept, one has to be prepared to tradeoff the needs of a few franchises that may more profitable. But if we take the free market position to the extreme, why not allow Toronto, and every MLS team for that matter to just dress the best 11 players they can find irrespective of nationality. Why have import restrictions. Are you in favour of that? becasue that would be the best possible soccer for the toronto market?

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

All joking aside, why not have the Whitecaps and Leafs join the MLS and field second teams in a CSL? I think someone mentioned that somewhere? That way everyone will be happy. You get a CSL, and Vancouver and Toronto get MLS too. Its clear that in Vancouver and TO cross-border rivalries with US cities have surpassed rivalries with Canadian cities. There was a time when Hamilton was Toronto's great CFL and municipal rival. Today thanks to GO Train service, Hamilton is increasingly seen as a bedroom suburb of Toronto! People in TO want to compete against New York, not Hamilton, VanCity guys want to beat Seattle not Victoria. We have to recognize that in both VanCity and TO the appeal of a CSL is greatly diminished, as much as it is still strong in Calgary and Saskatoon. Even in Europe Champions League football is aspired to over and above domestic league play now. We have to find a solution that satisfies both sets of needs and aspirations

If that were possible, then I would have no real problem with it. But you can figure out the economics of it with the only market in Canada that matters (Toronto)and the third (arguably second) most important market out of the equation. Piss poor corporate sponsorship. Potential revenue streams are eliminated. In any national venture, you need the Greater Toronto market involved. But your point about European play is duly noted, although available to only a small segement of any given national league. Perhaps Vancouver and Toronto's aspirations should be met through CONCACAF Club competition.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Looking at my sloppy typing I see that my sentence was not completed. I was saying that Toronto, and to a lessor extent Montreal and vancouver do have established sporting ties to the US markets, but what I wrote said exactly the opposite. My bad. The sentence should be "Other than Toronto, and to a lessor extent Montreal and Vancouver, this is simply not true of the US".

[Cheeta]

Wow, has this topic roled off course.

Any-who. MLS becoming top-flight across NA? Yeah. What-ever.

What the Hell. Since we're talking about fantasys,,,um,,,, never mind.