MLS aiming to be North American League

[RealGooner]

For those who claim that the MLS will accept only Toronto and not Vancouver and Montreal please read the following article. You may have to subscribe (its free) but I will post the most important paragraphs for you.

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/03/31/sections/sports/sports/article_463589.php

<<But MLS also sees itself, Garber said, "as a change agent in this soccer nation." As such, league officials maintain that what they are calling the Chivas Expansion Project is a first and significant step in a league plan to expand its borders.

Club America, Chivas' archrival in the Mexican First Division, could launch its own U.S.-based MLS franchise in 2007. Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment hopes to field an MLS team in Toronto that year.

Garber acknowledged that MLS is involved in talks with a number of Mexican First Division and European teams about investing in MLS clubs.

Ultimately, Garber and Vergara envision a merged MLS-Mexican First Division.

"Now, that's a ways off, and there are all sorts of FIFA, CONCACAF issues that we have to address there," Garber said. "But I would argue a merged Major League Soccer and Mexican First Division would be one of the most powerful and popular sports in North America."

He [Chivas USA owner Jorge Vergara]also has big plans for MLS.

"The vision I have with MLS is a fusion with the Mexican league," Vergara said. "A Champions League on the same level of Europe, very competitive, very exciting, with a lot of passion."

"Imagine what it would be like," Garber said of a combined MLS-Mexican league. "What those games would look like on Univision and what those stadiums would look like. But you've got to walk before you run."

Yet as Garber looked out onto an empty Home Depot stadium, it was clear his mind was already racing.>>

There you have it, MLS is looking to be a continental league. If the USSF isnt going to stop MLS from getting cosy with the big Mexican league then they wont have a problem allowing in 3 measely Canadian teams. Toronto 07, VanCity 09, MTL ? .

[youllneverwalkalone]

Q: Doesn't Club America pay their players real money? (I mean like EPL kind of change?)

[RealGooner]

A: Probably. However Club America's MLS team will be a similar set-up to similar to CD Guadalajara's Chivas USA team. Therefore they will pay the going MLS rate.

[Richard]

Interesting. I have been arguing that Canadian participation in a continental MLS would be good for Canadian soccer. Doesn't mean we should give up all dreams of a domestic league at some point but it will never be the same.

[Passive Observer]

Today the MetroStars announced that they will start work on a new stadium. Construction will start in the fall and be ready by June of 2007.

Believe that will be the same time table for Toronto. Therefore if a Toronto stadium is going to happen we should expect an announcement by mid-September or else we can forget a stadium being ready for the WYC.

[Gordon]

Lots of talk about Mexico and merged MLS/MFL. I am skeptical, but it is possible. Wonder how a 40 team 1st Division would work though. You do think think they are talking about full merger without multiple divisions don't you. I mean, 3 Canadian teams in a US/Mexcio Second division is....pretty much what we got now.

[Gordon]

Lots of talk about Mexico and merged MLS/MFL. I am skeptical, but it is possible. Wonder how a 40 team 1st Division would work though. You do think think they are talking about full merger without multiple divisions don't you. I mean, 3 Canadian teams in a US/Mexcio Second division is....pretty much what we got now.

[Elias]

32 teams in the NFL don't seem to be a problem. They seemed to be doing pretty well last time I checked. And they want to add more teams (LA, Mexico).

Never mind 100+ teams in NCAA football, 500 or whatever teams in NCAA basketball.

[Elias]

32 teams in the NFL don't seem to be a problem. They seemed to be doing pretty well last time I checked. And they want to add more teams (LA, Mexico).

Never mind 100+ teams in NCAA football, 500 or whatever teams in NCAA basketball.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

32 teams in the NFL don't seem to be a problem. They seemed to be doing pretty well last time I checked. And they want to add more teams (LA, Mexico).

Never mind 100+ teams in NCAA football, 500 or whatever teams in NCAA basketball.

OK, so an unbalanced years between Toronto vs Chivas games divisional structure. Certainly very common in Amercian/Canadian sports and it could work. Or perhaps a AL-NL baseball structure with MLF side winner playing MLS side winner. Still not a lot of talk of Canadian teams, but as I said, not beyond the realm of possibility.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

32 teams in the NFL don't seem to be a problem. They seemed to be doing pretty well last time I checked. And they want to add more teams (LA, Mexico).

Never mind 100+ teams in NCAA football, 500 or whatever teams in NCAA basketball.

OK, so an unbalanced years between Toronto vs Chivas games divisional structure. Certainly very common in Amercian/Canadian sports and it could work. Or perhaps a AL-NL baseball structure with MLF side winner playing MLS side winner. Still not a lot of talk of Canadian teams, but as I said, not beyond the realm of possibility.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Doesn't Mexico already have a promotion/relagation system like the rest of the civilised world?

Regardless, I don't see why Club America is going to listen to Mr. Garber or anyone else from a half-assed US league. They're not going to let their league get turned into the NFL. If anything, this would have to be considered a Mexican take-over, no?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Lots of talk about Mexico and merged MLS/MFL. I am skeptical, but it is possible. Wonder how a 40 team 1st Division would work though. You do think think they are talking about full merger without multiple divisions don't you. I mean, 3 Canadian teams in a US/Mexcio Second division is....pretty much what we got now.

No, That is not what we have now. 3 USL teams vs 3 MLS teams. Leaving aside the relegation issue you allude to, I dont need to explain the difference of calibre here because I know you understand it. The whole purpose of getting more contact between the MFL and the MLS is to raise the calibre of MLS even further. This year, DC United Chicago Fire and LA played Chelsea and Real Madrid repectively. Although the US clubs were beaten, they all looked worthy opponents by all reports. This wasnt possible 5 years ago. Canadian MLS players will benefit from playing the DC Uniteds, and LA Galaxies weekly. Whitecaps and Impact players can't improve anymore by playing in the USL, they have outgrown it. A new CSL will just drag these teams lower as the best Canadian players will depart for the USL, Europe and MLS, and Canada will be even worse off than it is now.

Again, a CSL COULD be formed at a much later date using the 3 MLS teams, and 5-7 solid Canadian USL-level teams. But starting a CSL from scratch today will drag our teams and players down, no question.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Doesn't Mexico already have a promotion/relagation system like the rest of the civilised world?

Regardless, I don't see why Club America is going to listen to Mr. Garber or anyone else from a half-assed US league. They're not going to let their league get turned into the NFL. If anything, this would have to be considered a Mexican take-over, no?

With regards to the merger, no.

Mexican teams would give their right hands to get access to the lucrative US market. Thats why Chivas is there, and Club America (Televisa) is on its way. Lets see, 20K fans at a Mexican stadium who earn $1 per hour average, or 20K people in the US stadium who earn $15 per hour? Who whould you rather have as your support if your soccer team is run as a business?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

No, That is not what we have now. 3 USL teams vs 3 MLS teams. Leaving aside the relegation issue you allude to, I dont need to explain the difference of calibre here because I know you understand it.

I think you missed what I was saying. If they do not have a 40 team first table, then the Canadian "MLS" teams might be in the second division (and its hard to see 3 Canadian teams in a 20 team Mexico/US/Canada league) then we ultimately end up in exactly the same place we are now: 3 second division teams.

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

The whole purpose of getting more contact between the MFL and the MLS is to raise the calibre of MLS even further. This year, DC United Chicago Fire and LA played Chelsea and Real Madrid repectively. Although the US clubs were beaten, they all looked worthy opponents by all reports. This wasnt possible 5 years ago. Canadian MLS players will benefit from playing the DC Uniteds, and LA Galaxies weekly.

I understand the purpose (and haven't a clue as to what might be in it for Mexico), but your example is poor. The Whitecaps beat, no dominated, an EPL team. Thats even better than being worthy losers. Don't read anything into mid season teams playing well against preseason teams. It is meaningless, and I know you are aware of this. If I trotted out the Whitecap victory over Sunderland as an example that we should be thrilled to stay with the A-League you'd be all over that.

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Whitecaps and Impact players can't improve anymore by playing in the USL, they have outgrown it. A new CSL will just drag these teams lower as the best Canadian players will depart for the USL, Europe and MLS, and Canada will be even worse off than it is now.

Again, a CSL COULD be formed at a much later date using the 3 MLS teams, and 5-7 solid Canadian USL-level teams. But starting a CSL from scratch today will drag our teams and players down, no question.

The best Canadian players will always depart for Europe, a small contingent of teams in MLS won't change this. And in two minutes I can create a set of rules that makes the CSL start off at a current A-league, provides more starting positions for Canadians, and set the stage for the gap - which is not any where as large as you think - between CSL and MLS. MLS, a decade ago, was worse than the A-League is currently. Geoff Aunger was a flipping All star for pete's sakes.

The key to developing better players is not to place a small few in a better league. It is to put as many as you can in a professional environment. That is the real success of MLS. The US would never have achieved any where near what they have by putting 2 or 3 teams in MLF.

Oh, and the League rules I mentioned? Allow 5 imports to start and two more on the bench able to replace imports only. 42 Canucks starting, we have easily that many at an A-League level and A-league quality imports are easily found. As the league matures, decrease the number of imports. Ah, but then all the "skill" positions get filled by imports. Simple, one you start deepening the pool of Canadians - oh look its not impossible, MLS did it - then you switch to a system which assigns points for position: A team gets, say, 8 import points to fill. Central Mid and Striker cost 4 each, all other positions 2. Now teams can figure out how to stock their roster with a premium being placed on attacking players. You can have 2, 3 or 4 imports starting, depending on where you use the imports. Gives teams a vested interest in identifying Canadian attacking players and developing. Will imports dominate the AM position? Yeah, but they do in any league that allows imports. Once you reduce the import points to 6, then it is 2 or 3 imports starting and you guarantee that at least 2 of three primary attacking positions are Canucks.

In a Canadian league, we have 8 teams developing young canadian talent instead of 3, which means there is less picking of winners and losers when players are still teenagers. The more players training, the better.

If you want to support the eggs in the MLS basket because it is more "possible" than a Candian league, then do so. There is considerable merit in that position. But arguing a small presense in a better league is better than a larger presense in national league is just plain wrong.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

With regards to the merger, no.

Mexican teams would give their right hands to get access to the lucrative US market. Thats why Chivas is there, and Club America (Televisa) is on its way. Lets see, 20K fans at a Mexican stadium who earn $1 per hour average, or 20K people in the US stadium who earn $15 per hour? Who whould you rather have as your support if your soccer team is run as a business?

So, Mexican TV money, which buys Mexico a guaranteed spot in both the COPA Lib and the COPA America becomes secondary to 12-15000 american fans in Salt Lake City? Do you have any idea of Mexican attendance, MLS attendance and MFL TV revenues or are you just speculating? There are only 2 teams in MLS that draw 20K fans after a decade of operation, MLS attendance is declining</u> and you think MLF is looking at this covetously? I can see why Canadians would covet MLS, but Mexico? The relative state of MLF versus MLS is that MLF buys teams in MLS with their pocket change. Merger of equals seems unlikely. Maybe if everything goes right for MLS for a decade but we are talking an MLF is to EPL as MLS is to the Championship relationship right now.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

With regards to the merger, no.

Mexican teams would give their right hands to get access to the lucrative US market. Thats why Chivas is there, and Club America (Televisa) is on its way. Lets see, 20K fans at a Mexican stadium who earn $1 per hour average, or 20K people in the US stadium who earn $15 per hour? Who whould you rather have as your support if your soccer team is run as a business?

Gordon is spot on here. For Club America especially, you're dealing with TV, sponsorship, not to mention some pretty interesting ticket pricing situations in a 114k stadium.

I believe your post reflect a bit of misguided chauvinism. Mexico is not a 3rd world country. Club America may not be Man U or Real -but you could easily compare them to Celtic or Rangers.

Where's that Danish guy when I need him -the one who only appears on this board to remind us that every league in Scandinavia is a notch above MLS?

[mrpopulistfutebol]

Just some thoughts on another mouth watering issue. For me, I just cannot see MLS and the Premier Mexican league Merging. Their operating systems are day and night. Television revenue in Mexico is way more then in the US, The Mexican League has a relegation system, unlike MLS in the US.

To me if you want to see U.S. and Mexican clubs go at it, let's support building a strong CONCACAF Champions Cup, as well as friendlies between clubs of these nations. That is the type of international competition I support.

To me a nations's soccer league for the most part is like national identity. Every nation needs some national identity.

That is just my two cents

[Bxl Boy]

They can't find enough teams in the US... so they come to Canada

Fast, fast, take the millions before bankrupt

[Passive Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Bxl Boy

They can't find enough teams in the US... so they come to Canada

Fast, fast, take the millions before bankrupt

Bankrupt? They are on the verge of building 4 more soccer centric stadiums by 2007 (New York, DC, Salt Lake, Colorado). That means MLS will have 8 soccer stadiums - does not look like a league that is going bankrupt. If anything, now that they will control stadium revenue and with their tiny salary cap, all the teams are on the verge of making a profit.

Think Montreal fans are worried because they might miss the boat when Toronto and Vancouver jump in.

[RealGooner]

quote:

If you want to support the eggs in the MLS basket because it is more "possible" than a Candian league, then do so. There is considerable merit in that position. But arguing a small presense in a better league is better than a larger presense in national league is just plain wrong.

Thank you for admitting that there is merit in the pro-MLS position. But we will have to agree to disagree that having a small presense in a better league is good for Canada. It isn't plain wrong, its reality. A CSL at present will drag Canadian soccer down.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

So, Mexican TV money, which buys Mexico a guaranteed spot in both the COPA Lib and the COPA America becomes secondary to 12-15000 american fans in Salt Lake City? Do you have any idea of Mexican attendance, MLS attendance and MFL TV revenues or are you just speculating? There are only 2 teams in MLS that draw 20K fans after a decade of operation, MLS attendance is declining</u> and you think MLF is looking at this covetously? I can see why Canadians would covet MLS, but Mexico? The relative state of MLF versus MLS is that MLF buys teams in MLS with their pocket change. Merger of equals seems unlikely. Maybe if everything goes right for MLS for a decade but we are talking an MLF is to EPL as MLS is to the Championship relationship right now.

Relax. My example was to demonstrate the relative wealth of the typical US sports fan vs the Mexican one. But the US market is lucrative, and in fact the US Hispanic market is now considered one of the most lucrative Hispanic markets in the Americas. So to answer your question, yes , the MLF probably does look at the US market covetously. No matter what way you look at it, as interest in soccer grows in the US, Mexican teams continue to 'covet' the US market. The US is a sleeping giant in soccer, financially speaking and the Mexicans know it.

[An Observer]

i think what continually interests me on this board how people compare 1 or 3 teams in the MLS to a 8 or 10 team CSL and state the latter means there are more positions for players. There at least three fallacies with this argument:

1. The comparison is in accurate. If you are to find 5 additional teams for a CSL, you are just as likely (if not more likely) to find those same additional 5 sides for the USL 1st division. So the real comparison is 3 MLS + 5 USL 1st Division versus 8 CSL....where the former in my opinion is definitely better. You can try to claim that some unknown ownership group(s) may see the light and get all nationalistic and prefer to put money into supporting 8 CSL sides across the country rather than some of the same owners buying USL 1st division sides, but realistically, it is more likely that same owner would prefer to buy into an establish league such as the USL than create a league from scratch

2. And if there are more teams and more positions, that doesn't necessarily mean better player standards. If you want more players playing in leagues, we already have the CPSL, PCSL, and provinsional leagues and therefore, why bother starting any league. Simply go out and watch Victoria United for example and be happy with that. Or is the idea of raising the standard of play so players can develop. Well then you are back to the point 1 situation, 3 MLS and 5 USL 1st Div is better than 8 CSL sides so that is better for development.

3. More positions for Canadian players does not mean a whole lot if you cannot play FULL-TIME year round. That is why the MLS is the missing link between those that go to Europe and those that stay and for the most part, play Part-Time in the USL 1st division (and therefore, their development is seriously restricted). You need a place in Canada for some players to have the opportunity to play full-time, otherwise their talent goes to waste (eg. Jeff Clarke, Robbie Aristodemeo).

[RealGooner]

Well said An Observer, I agree 100%.

[Gordon]

Some interesting points Observer, and certainly not something that has not been considered. I will try to throw some of my perspectives on them so you know where we are coming from.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

i think what continually interests me on this board how people compare 1 or 3 teams in the MLS to a 8 or 10 team CSL and state the latter means there are more positions for players. There at least three fallacies with this argument:

1. The comparison is in accurate. If you are to find 5 additional teams for a CSL, you are just as likely (if not more likely) to find those same additional 5 sides for the USL 1st division. So the real comparison is 3 MLS + 5 USL 1st Division versus 8 CSL....where the former in my opinion is definitely better. You can try to claim that some unknown ownership group(s) may see the light and get all nationalistic and prefer to put money into supporting 8 CSL sides across the country rather than some of the same owners buying USL 1st division sides, but realistically, it is more likely that same owner would prefer to buy into an establish league such as the USL than create a league from scratch

Realistically is an interesting term. Realistically, I don't believe that three MLS teams will happen. Even more unrealistic though, is the notion that 5 Canadian cities will step up to the USL, accept minor league status in Canada and play teams that they have zero association with. Saskatoon can relate to Calgary, Winnipeg and Vitoria. We have a history there, a national tie. We got nothing with Rochester. 5 CSL sides with Vancouver Montreal and Toronto are more realisitic than 5 USL sides with those three cities playing in the top league. Soccer is a fringe sport in Canada, it is a detriment to any pro team that might arise to be saddled with opposition that is irrelevant to them beyond existing in the same league and with the perception that it is second rate stuff, even by Canadian standards. Realistically, there is that term again, 8 pro teams in Canada will only happen under the umbrella of a CSL.

As for investors starting a league from scratch, well it happened before. Various failure in basketball and baseball haven't stopped investors from trying several times why should it be so different for soccer. If anyone was actually out there working towards it maybe it would happen. dare to dream. And only sell out the dream if you get something significant for it.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

2. And if there are more teams and more positions, that doesn't necessarily mean better player standards. If you want more players playing in leagues, we already have the CPSL, PCSL, and provinsional leagues and therefore, why bother starting any league. Simply go out and watch Victoria United for example and be happy with that. Or is the idea of raising the standard of play so players can develop. Well then you are back to the point 1 situation, 3 MLS and 5 USL 1st Div is better than 8 CSL sides so that is better for development.

Putting aside the differing 8 team scenarios, you need apro league to train players in a pro environment. That is not to sdayt some kid going through PCSL might not eventually develop, but his channces are greater in he is in a professional full time training environment, which none of those leagues are. Your basic premis that 3MLS and 5 USL is a better environment is, may, I suppose marginally true but only if that was a relasitic (damn that word) options. Equally, if we can in fact staff 3 teams to an MLS level, would the other 5 benefit by playing them nearly half the time as opposed to lessor USL opposition? That is, instead of playing weaker USL teams all the time, the get to play MLS caliber Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto. Realistically, you are assuming that MLS teams would have a bigger budget than CSL teams which is simply conjecture. The TO guys say that MLS would draw bigger than CSL, maybe its true, they know their town better than I do, but equally, I know that Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Edmonton will draw more playing CSL than they would in USL.

MLS is a short term solution in which an immediate raise in standard of play is possible. Over the longer term, CSL, just like MLS did, will improve and that gap will narrow significantly. Will it ever be equal? Almost certanly no, but like second tier European Leagues, and indeed MLS, the best players will always move on to greener pastures, biiger leagues and more challenging circumstances, unless they are pussies like Landon Donovan.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

3. More positions for Canadian players does not mean a whole lot if you cannot play FULL-TIME year round. That is why the MLS is the missing link between those that go to Europe and those that stay and for the most part, play Part-Time in the USL 1st division (and therefore, their development is seriously restricted). You need a place in Canada for some players to have the opportunity to play full-time, otherwise their talent goes to waste (eg. Jeff Clarke, Robbie Aristodemeo).

What, Toronto gets warmer because it joins MLS? Are there reasons why a CSL is restricted to a USL schedule? I can't see any reason why a CSL season can not train in April, run May through until the 3rd week of October. Saskatoon and Edmonton are no colder at this time of year than England in February. This is not significantly different than MLS.