Sandro Grande off to Norway.

[RS]

Viking is in the UEFA Cup, correct?

Surely, that's a higher level than the USL, as is the Norwegian premier league. But I get your point, most of these players are not going to the top team in Norway or Sweden, they're going to second tier clubs in the middle of nowhere.

The bottom line is that they can make more and be closer to scouts in Europe, so for most players its a no-brainer.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Viking is in the UEFA Cup, correct?

Surely, that's a higher level than the USL,

Perhaps. But for how long? 2-4 games in a UEFA Cup against clubs like Portadown whom I have never heard of. Is that worth it?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Viking is in the UEFA Cup, correct?

Surely, that's a higher level than the USL,

Perhaps. But for how long? 2-4 games in a UEFA Cup against clubs like Portadown whom I have never heard of. Is that worth it?

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Perhaps. But for how long? 2-4 games in a UEFA Cup against clubs like Portadown whom I have never heard of. Is that worth it?

Didn't Viking beat Chelsea in Europe a few years back ?

Better to play smaller clubs (I've heard of Portadown) in the UEFA Cup than.......oh yeah, we have no proper domestic cup.

A great move for Grande. A good league, a new world class stadium, internationally renowned coach, and I'm sure a hefty pay increase. Viking will open a lot more doors than the USL. There is nothing but positives from this move.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Perhaps. But for how long? 2-4 games in a UEFA Cup against clubs like Portadown whom I have never heard of. Is that worth it?

Didn't Viking beat Chelsea in Europe a few years back ?

Better to play smaller clubs (I've heard of Portadown) in the UEFA Cup than.......oh yeah, we have no proper domestic cup.

A great move for Grande. A good league, a new world class stadium, internationally renowned coach, and I'm sure a hefty pay increase. Viking will open a lot more doors than the USL. There is nothing but positives from this move.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I don't think that these transfers are good for Canadian soccer as a whole. We need to be able to retain these kind of players and if Canadian clubs are to lose them, then I would hope that they be to more competitive environments than where they are currently off to. Thats why the sooner that we get MLS into Canada the better.

Well yes, having these players play in the MLS at home would be better than having them play in Norway or Sweden, but absent of that this is an overall improvement, and given the cash for the players to make thise moves and the fact they are playing for a longer time of the year (and thus more likeley to be in shape for more national team call-ups) its tough to criticize. If we ever get the MLS in place these are the kind of players that will stay in Canada (assuming that they will make the same amount of cash that they would for a club like Viking).

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I don't think that these transfers are good for Canadian soccer as a whole. We need to be able to retain these kind of players and if Canadian clubs are to lose them, then I would hope that they be to more competitive environments than where they are currently off to. Thats why the sooner that we get MLS into Canada the better.

Well yes, having these players play in the MLS at home would be better than having them play in Norway or Sweden, but absent of that this is an overall improvement, and given the cash for the players to make thise moves and the fact they are playing for a longer time of the year (and thus more likeley to be in shape for more national team call-ups) its tough to criticize. If we ever get the MLS in place these are the kind of players that will stay in Canada (assuming that they will make the same amount of cash that they would for a club like Viking).

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well yes, having these players play in the MLS at home would be better than having them play in Norway or Sweden, but absent of that this is an overall improvement, and given the cash for the players to make thise moves and the fact they are playing for a longer time of the year (and thus more likeley to be in shape for more national team call-ups) its tough to criticize. If we ever get the MLS in place these are the kind of players that will stay in Canada (assuming that they will make the same amount of cash that they would for a club like Viking).

Personally I doubt MLS would pay close to what a club like Viking can offer. What was Jason Jordan offered a few years by Colorado, $15,000 ? And what was MLS going to pay Oliver Occean, 35,000, 50,000 US ? Derosario is an established championship winning player, and he only makes $70,000 US.

If we have our own MLS clubs, then it may be a viable option, but as it stands now, MLS is not a viable option for Canadian players. They can make more money, have greater opportunity and have better job security anywhere in the first two divisions of Scandinavia.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well yes, having these players play in the MLS at home would be better than having them play in Norway or Sweden, but absent of that this is an overall improvement, and given the cash for the players to make thise moves and the fact they are playing for a longer time of the year (and thus more likeley to be in shape for more national team call-ups) its tough to criticize. If we ever get the MLS in place these are the kind of players that will stay in Canada (assuming that they will make the same amount of cash that they would for a club like Viking).

Personally I doubt MLS would pay close to what a club like Viking can offer. What was Jason Jordan offered a few years by Colorado, $15,000 ? And what was MLS going to pay Oliver Occean, 35,000, 50,000 US ? Derosario is an established championship winning player, and he only makes $70,000 US.

If we have our own MLS clubs, then it may be a viable option, but as it stands now, MLS is not a viable option for Canadian players. They can make more money, have greater opportunity and have better job security anywhere in the first two divisions of Scandinavia.

[mjoni]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I don't think that these transfers are good for Canadian soccer as a whole. We need to be able to retain these kind of players and if Canadian clubs are to lose them, then I would hope that they be to more competitive environments than where they are currently off to. Thats why the sooner that we get MLS into Canada the better.

The only plus from these transfers is the $$$ that will flow into the pockets of the players and the clubs. But, its a loss for the national teams, canadian soccer and the fans of these players/clubs. From a fan's standpoint, it no different than what the Expos had to do time and time again. From a national team (CSA) perspective, it means players are off to play in places that are no better than the USL but with the added problem that you now have to contend with travel and displacement for national teams matches. Furthermore, the national teams now have to deal with people who: don't have a vested interest in our nation programs and people whom you are unlikely to have forged personal relationships with and consequently will be less flexible and accomodating with respect to your needs and demands ( i.e.: player releases and availability for national team duty).

I think you need to see soccer in Sweden and Norway first hand before you make an errant claim about it - and that's obviously the case if you're comparing it to MLS.

[mjoni]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I don't think that these transfers are good for Canadian soccer as a whole. We need to be able to retain these kind of players and if Canadian clubs are to lose them, then I would hope that they be to more competitive environments than where they are currently off to. Thats why the sooner that we get MLS into Canada the better.

The only plus from these transfers is the $$$ that will flow into the pockets of the players and the clubs. But, its a loss for the national teams, canadian soccer and the fans of these players/clubs. From a fan's standpoint, it no different than what the Expos had to do time and time again. From a national team (CSA) perspective, it means players are off to play in places that are no better than the USL but with the added problem that you now have to contend with travel and displacement for national teams matches. Furthermore, the national teams now have to deal with people who: don't have a vested interest in our nation programs and people whom you are unlikely to have forged personal relationships with and consequently will be less flexible and accomodating with respect to your needs and demands ( i.e.: player releases and availability for national team duty).

I think you need to see soccer in Sweden and Norway first hand before you make an errant claim about it - and that's obviously the case if you're comparing it to MLS.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Personally I doubt MLS would pay close to what a club like Viking can offer. What was Jason Jordan offered a few years by Colorado, $15,000 ?

Well yes, though I expect a Canadian MLS club, be it in Vancouver, Montreal and/or Toronto would be able to do lot better than that with their offers. As you say though, there are always going to be those who will make more even in Norway & Sweden over the MLS, but this will happen less with clubs in Canada, should it ever happen, as some people will sometimes want to stay at home for less money than to go live north of the article circle for a bit more cash (to give a Tromso example).

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Personally I doubt MLS would pay close to what a club like Viking can offer. What was Jason Jordan offered a few years by Colorado, $15,000 ?

Well yes, though I expect a Canadian MLS club, be it in Vancouver, Montreal and/or Toronto would be able to do lot better than that with their offers. As you say though, there are always going to be those who will make more even in Norway & Sweden over the MLS, but this will happen less with clubs in Canada, should it ever happen, as some people will sometimes want to stay at home for less money than to go live north of the article circle for a bit more cash (to give a Tromso example).

[Gordon]

It is the MLS's M.O. to pay senior internationals peanuts unless they are stars and have some leverage. Ruiz was only making 32,000 or something ridiculous like that while at LA. In most cases, the imports can be replaced with comparable players for a low price. Sort of like the CFL inthat regard, although the cmoparison is not 100% apt for a variety of reasons. However, as domestic players on a CDN MLS side, the wage would be comparable to the wages earned by US players, which run a much wider gament, and the stars make money compareable or more to what the Scandinavian sides are reported topay.

Never seen any othe scandinavian leagues up close, but I expect that they are above USL and equal to, maybe a smidge better in some cases, than MLS. So in these cases, it is both improved slary and inproved quality of football in the move, IMO.

[Gordon]

It is the MLS's M.O. to pay senior internationals peanuts unless they are stars and have some leverage. Ruiz was only making 32,000 or something ridiculous like that while at LA. In most cases, the imports can be replaced with comparable players for a low price. Sort of like the CFL inthat regard, although the cmoparison is not 100% apt for a variety of reasons. However, as domestic players on a CDN MLS side, the wage would be comparable to the wages earned by US players, which run a much wider gament, and the stars make money compareable or more to what the Scandinavian sides are reported topay.

Never seen any othe scandinavian leagues up close, but I expect that they are above USL and equal to, maybe a smidge better in some cases, than MLS. So in these cases, it is both improved slary and inproved quality of football in the move, IMO.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Grande in the Norwegian press:

http://fotball.bladet-tromso.no/nyhetsarkiv/article.jhtml?articleID=82774

[Winnipeg Fury]

Grande in the Norwegian press:

http://fotball.bladet-tromso.no/nyhetsarkiv/article.jhtml?articleID=82774

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Viking is in the UEFA Cup, correct?

Surely, that's a higher level than the USL, as is the Norwegian premier league. But I get your point, most of these players are not going to the top team in Norway or Sweden, they're going to second tier clubs in the middle of nowhere.

The bottom line is that they can make more and be closer to scouts in Europe, so for most players its a no-brainer.

Yes, some of these players are starting out in the second tier of Scandinavia, but would Besiktas of Turkey be offering huge money to Montreal if Bernier remained in Canada (not likely) ? This is a player that started out with Moss in the second tier of Norway and is now drawing interest from a world renowned club.

The same can be said of Hutchison who moved from Osters (and has drawn interest from EPL), and Friend who moved from Moss.

So yes, I'm a big fan of our players going to 'second tier clubs in the middle of nowhere.'

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by mjoni

I think you need to see soccer in Sweden and Norway first hand before you make an errant claim about it - and that's obviously the case if you're comparing it to MLS.

Perhaps, but have you seen the MLS? Or have you seen the USL first divison? That argument works both ways. Also, From what I have observed of our National team, I have not observed any significant improvement in level of play from those players who have had stints in Scandinavia. Unlike say, those who have moved to the bigger clubs on the continent for example.

Sorry, I don't mean to single out scandinavia. I could have made the same argument for players going to the lower divisions in the UK or Europe. Many are pretty much the players that have left. Also, Unlike Radzinski, Deguzman, Stalteri, Forrest ( name a few), I am yet to see any meaningfull professional progression from these players who have moved to these clubs in Scandinavia. That could change mind you, but so all we hear is talk.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I still remember when a certain "second rate club in the middle of nowhere" knocked Barça out of the European Cup. If I remember right that was the year after we won it, but could be wrong.

This was the team that gave Chelsea a hard run just a few years ago.

The Norwegian sides could be criticized for some rudimentary play at times, but they are not untalented, and usually clubs from other leagues that are superior on paper would prefer not to have to face them (and their stadiums, and their weather).

[Free kick]

I don't think that we are or anyone else is trying to slight the communities or its citizens that these clubs play in. I am sure that that is not the intent of the of the earlier post when one referred to them as " In the middle of nowehere". But in football terms, they are. Sure you can point to some occasional surprise results at various times against Chelsea or Barcelona. Similarly, lets not forget that the Lynx also beat 1860 Munich, a bundesliga clubs . In footballing terms, The lynx are a club in the middle of now where.

[RS]

I was the one who originally stated that some of these clubs are 'in the middle of nowhere', and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could argue otherwise.

I think the gist of my post was misunderstood. I was responding to the notion that the mass exodus from USL to Scandinavia was a lateral move (financial gain excepted). I agree with that assessment for the most part (especially the case of a Pozniak who is now in a third tier league), although I also stated that Grande's move to Viking is a positive one, as they are a large club who are particpants in European club competitions as well as the top tier in Norway.

And as I stated before, it's easier for these guys to get spotted by scouts elsewhere in Europe when they are actually playing in Europe. Winnipeg Fury's examples of Besiktas' intereset in Bernier, as well as Hutch's drawing interest from EPL clubs, supported that claim.

Scandinavia has provided something of a pipeline for our young talent to European football, which can only be viewed as a positive step. Obviously, not everyone that plays in Europe is going to move on to the EPL or Aalborg or Besiktas, but the few that do will have undoubtedly benefitted from their Scandinavian experience.

As well, every time an established USL standout such as Grande, Gerba or Bernier moves on to a larger paycheque and increased exposure, a roster spot is opened up for another young talent to take the departing player's place.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Here's a picture of Grande's signing with Viking. Can we say that many of these players are following in the footsteps of Marco Reda who eventually set foot in Norway as of 4 years ago. Now look at his career, as it lift-off to better prospects in Denmark. Reda should be complimented here for setting a positive precedence for many of these Canadian players now playing in Scandinavia (Norway in particular).

[mjoni]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Perhaps, but have you seen the MLS? Or have you seen the USL first divison? That argument works both ways. Also, From what I have observed of our National team, I have not observed any significant improvement in level of play from those players who have had stints in Scandinavia. Unlike say, those who have moved to the bigger clubs on the continent for example.

Sorry, I don't mean to single out scandinavia. I could have made the same argument for players going to the lower divisions in the UK or Europe. Many are pretty much the players that have left. Also, Unlike Radzinski, Deguzman, Stalteri, Forrest ( name a few), I am yet to see any meaningfull professional progression from these players who have moved to these clubs in Scandinavia. That could change mind you, but so all we hear is talk.

Dude, I'm from Vancouver, so I've seen my share of USL and MLS, certainly enough to compare them with the leagues over here. I understand your point about players being spread out all over Europe and that being detrimental to the national team's performance. But, these players have to think about their own development as well as making a living. The leagues in Scandinavia pay well, and they are a consistent springboard into bigger leagues in Europe. Players move comfortably from Sweden to Holland, Germany and England. I'm not convinced that we're at that level with MLS - although a few players have made the jump, a few have fallen short and landed back in the MLS (most notably Landon Donovan).

If Occean, Bernier, Hutchinson and co. end up going nowhere then maybe you'll be right. (Just a sidenote, don't tell me that you haven't noticed a development in Hutchinson.) But if the hype around these players is even partly for real (I know, you're in Canada and you're thinking, What hype??), then they'll be moving on to bigger and better things that they never could have achieved playing in Canada or the USA. Now, whether that translates into a good performance for the national team remains to be seen.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by BC supporter

I'm sure Impact fans are disappointed, but his signing, as with Gerba, is just one more sign of what a successful team Montreal is and how key they've become to the development of football in this country.

I don't think Montreal should get credit for either of these two. Gerba has spent most of his time with the Lynx and Grande was already the player he is now when he joined the Impact last year (remember he came from Italy).

As for our players moving to Scandinavia [in response to this thread in general, not to BC supporter], for now I'm with Free kick in remaining skeptical about these moves from a NT development point of view. I don't think they are bad moves, but I don't find them very exciting because so far I don't see how they have improved our situation with any significance. Perhaps it's just too early to tell (though I'd like to see some of them moving on to better leagues soon, because that was supposed to be the biggest advantage of Scandinavia and we've seen nothing so far, "interest" notwithstanding).

Of course, I'm factoring in Canadian club soccer (which is more significant to me than to most people here) when forming my opinion. These moves are horrible for Montreal and Canadian club soccer in general. I hope Montreal can carry on because they have really excited me over the last two seasons.