Crazy_Yank Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by trueviking 6th.....ahead of france, england, spain, portugal and germany????!!!!....with a bunch of guys who couldnt make it in the english championship division?...i dont get it...... Normally I save my venom for bigsoccer, but this might be the stupidest post I've read here. Of our best eleven only two play for MLS sides. The rest play in the EPL, bundesliga, or the top three Dutch sides. We may not be a legit top six side, but we do have class players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by trueviking ....does vatican city have a team?....how fast could they run all wearing those pointy hats?... Now why did you have to make a comment like that. [V] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank Normally I save my venom for bigsoccer, but this might be the stupidest post I've read here. Of our best eleven only two play for MLS sides. The rest play in the EPL, bundesliga, or the top three Dutch sides. We may not be a legit top six side, but we do have class players. sorry...i didnt mean to offend, but compared to the clubs that the players on france, england etc. play on the u.s. lineup doesnt match up... USA starting 11 vs. mexico world cup qualifyer english premiership - 2 english championship - 1 germany first division - 2 (including the last place team) germany division 2 - 1 belgium - 1 holland - 1 MLS - 3 subs: 2 from MLS and one from english premiership. (kinda looks like canda's w.c. qualifying roster actually:)) england's third string keeper is a premiership player....their top 30 world cup roster players are either premiership or real madrid...except for the bastard from germany. look at the teams the americans have played over the past 4 years.... games played: 62 games against teams in the top 20 of the world rankings: 18 record against teams in top 20: 5 wins (3 against mexico, portugal 10th, uraguay 19th) 12 losses and a draw. how does that equal 6th best team in the world? 2005 Feb. 9 T & T 2-1 W March 9 Colombia 3-0 W March 19 Honduras 1-0 W March 27 Mexico 1-2 L March 30 Guatemala 2-0 W May 28 England 1-2 L June 4 Costa Rica 3-0 W June 8 Panama 3-0 W July 7 Cuba 4-1 W July 9 Canada 2-0 W July 12 Costa Rica 0-0 T July 16 Jamaica 3-1 W 2004 Jan. 18 Denmark 1-1 T Feb. 18 Holland 0-1 L March 13 Haiti 1-1 T March 31 Poland 1-0 W Apr. 28 Mexico 1-0 W June 2 Honduras 4-0 W June 13 Grenada 3-0 W June 20 Grenada 3-2 W July 11 Poland 1-1 T Aug. 18 Jamaica 1-1 T Sept. 4 El Salvador 2-0 W Sept. 9 Panama City 1-1 Oct. 10 El Salvador 2-0 W Oct. 13 Panama 6-0 W 2003 January 19, 2003 Canada 4-0 W February 8, 2003 Argentina 0-1 L February 12, 2003 Jamaica 2-1 W March 29, 2003 Venezuela 2-0 W May 8, 2003 Mexico 0-0 T May 26, 2003 Wales 2-0 W June 8, 2003 New Zealand 2-1 W June 19, 2003Turkey 1-2 L June 21, 2003 Brazil 0-1 L June 23, 2003 Cameroon 0-0 T July 6, 2003 Paraguay 2-0 W July 12, 2003 El Salvador 2-0 W July 14, 2003 Martinique 2-0 W July 19, 2003 Cuba 5-0 W July 23, 2003 Brazil 1-2 L July 26, 2003 Costa Rica 3-2 W 2002 January 19, 2002 Korea 2-1 W January 21, 2002 Cuba 1-0 W January 27, 2002 El Salvador 4-0 W January 30, 2002 Canada 0-0 T February 2, 2002 Costa Rica 2-0 W February 13, 2002 Italy 0-1 L March 2, 2002 Honduras 4-0 W March 10, 2002 Ecuador 1-0 W March 27, 2002 Germany 2-4 L April 3, 2002 Mexico 1-0 W April 17, 2002 Ireland 1-2 L May 12, 2002 Uruguay 2-1 W May 16, 2002 Jamaica 5-0 W May 19, 2002 Holland 0-2 L June 5, 2002 Portugal 3-2 W June 10, 2002 Korea 1-1 T June 14, 2002 Poland 1-3 L June 17, 2002 Mexico 2-0 W June 21, 2002 Germany 0-1 L November 17, 2002 El Salvador 2-0 W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by The Ref Now why did you have to make a comment like that. [V] yikes sensitive....only meant that canada needs some bad teams to play....just a joke. nothing sacreligious intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 The US ranking is somewhat falsified since all Gold Cup matches are not home for them, they are neutral. This is the case for all major confederation tournaments and the WC. Meaning that they get more points for otherwise expected wins and lose less for draws and losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 It does NOT equal sixth in the world, it equals sixth in the FIFA rankings. As Napoleon Dynamite qould say: GAWD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by trueviking I wasn't offended by an idiotic comment. Just pointing out that the suggestion most US players can't hack it at England's second tier is an incredibly stupid statement. In my opinion such a statement is inspired by jealousy, not by facts. No one is claiming the US is the 6th best team in the world. No US fans believe that. If you had read my orginal post you would have noted that I agreed that the US is not a top 6 team. The best US starting eleven would be..... Fowards: Eddie Johnson (FC Dallas: MLS) Brian McBride (Fulham: EPL) Midfield: Landon Donovon (LA Galaxy: MLS) Demarcus Beasley (PSV: Eredivise) John O'Brien (Ajax: Eredivise) Claudio Reyna (Manchester City: EPL) Defenders: Carlos Bocanegra (Fulham: EPL) Gooch (Standard Liege: Beligian 1st division) Cory Gibbs (Feyenoord: Eredivise) Steve Cherundolo (Hannover 96: Bundesliga) Goalkeeper: Kasey Keller (Borussia Mogengladbach: Bundesliga) After that there is some drop off, but no one who couldn't cut it at England's second tier. Even still we have Connor Casey who plys his trade at FC Mainz of the Bundesliga. Jonathon Spector who at only 18 years old made 8 first team appearences for Manchester United, 3 of which garnered him "man of the match" awards, including one in champions league play. He's been loaned to Charlton where he is expected to win a place in the 1st team. Goalkeeper Tim Howard has made 75 Man U appearances over the past 2 seasons. We also have fringe players like Robbie Russel who starts Rosenberg and Peter Philipakos who at 20 saw major action for Greek side Olympiakos and is penciled in as a starter this season. Those guys would walk into the starting 11 for just about every concacaf team except Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 This is a better world ranking: http://eloratings.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack This is a better world ranking: http://eloratings.net/ I agree. I think the elo ranking are the best out there. I do think the US is a top 15 team, but not a top 10 team. I also think that 66 is a more realistic ranking of Canada than 84. The faults of the FIFA rankings have been discussed ad nauseum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 crazy yank.....i apologize for exagerating....my stats showing 2 EPL players, 2 bundeliga 1 players and others from lower leagues are still true...USA starting eleven against mexico qualifier. if you compare that lineup to the others in the top 10, or even 15, they do not compare at all....if i was choosing a team to go to the world cup with, based only on where players play, i would go with australia at 60th before i went with the u.s. at 6th. i was exaggerating to make a point...not many top 15 teams would have half of their starting roster from leagues the calibre of MLS, bundesliga 2, and belgium (more than half if subs are included)...and keller's team barely escaped relegation in bundesliga1. you are right it is very much jealousy and frustration.....but the facts are still that the american roster is not in the same class as the teams that are behind them...and their record against top 20 teams proves that they are not the same calibre.....except for mexico, they have beaten only one top 10 team (10th) in the last 4 years...and only one other top 20 (18th). seems to me that the elite teams in the soccer world would do better than that against so called comparable competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 But rankings are based on results not on rosters and what leagues or teams the players play on. If they were based on your criteria they wouldn't have to play games at all. There are countless examples of national teams who underperform despite the number of players they have playing in top leagues (including us at the moment) and likewise countries who overperform despite not having the most impressive roster. Number 6 seems a bit high for the US to me as well but they are certainly easily within the top 20 and probably pretty near to a top 10 team. The FIFA rankings are seriously flawed but not half as flawed as the system by which you seem to be ranking teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by trueviking crazy yank.....i apologize for exagerating....my stats showing 2 EPL players, 2 bundeliga 1 players and others from lower leagues are still true...USA starting eleven against mexico qualifier. if you compare that lineup to the others in the top 10, or even 15, they do not compare at all....if i was choosing a team to go to the world cup with, based only on where players play, i would go with australia at 60th before i went with the u.s. at 6th. i was exaggerating to make a point...not many top 15 teams would have half of their starting roster from leagues the calibre of MLS, bundesliga 2, and belgium (more than half if subs are included)...and keller's team barely escaped relegation in bundesliga1. you are right it is very much jealousy and frustration.....but the facts are still that the american roster is not in the same class as the teams that are behind them...and their record against top 20 teams proves that they are not the same calibre.....except for mexico, they have beaten only one top 10 team (10th) in the last 4 years...and only one other top 20 (18th). seems to me that the elite teams in the soccer world would do better than that against so called comparable competition. Well, atleast you are honest and quite thorough with your jealousy and frustration. We know good and well that we are not realistically ranked sixth or even tenth when it comes to national teams. But how does putting down the US' accomplishments or lack their of in your view, help your situation? Because honestly you haven't posted anything that American fans don't already know about our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 you are right....i wasnt intending to put down american accomplishments...i wish we had half the success....being a canadian fan is the most frustrating thing in the world and when i see a team that is not that much different on paper having so much success, it makes me wish that our guys could find the same secret. i know it looks as though i begrudge the americans, but its more like i am completely annoyed that we are such underachievers....its like watching your brother do really well in a sport....kind of a marty nash/steve nash thing, i guess. you want them to do well, but it frustrates yoou when you cant live up to your expectations. and you are right....judging teams by the leagues that their players play in is just as flawed as the fifa rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue and White Army Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hahah, oh how my Scottish workmates are going to get it tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I think trueviking hits the nail on the head... looking at that best possible US starting eleven. there really is very little to seperate us on paper. The truth though lies in the USA's recent success though... we may have similar number of like-skilled players, but they play much more as a unit than we do. I'd say this really points to the overall depth of the USA team as a key to success. Do one of you stats guru's have any idea about a comparison of overall/frequency of games played by both sides? I'm assuming that the USA plays much more frequently than we do, but that's just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 quote:Originally posted by strobe_z I think trueviking hits the nail on the head... looking at that best possible US starting eleven. there really is very little to seperate us on paper. The truth though lies in the USA's recent success though... we may have similar number of like-skilled players, but they play much more as a unit than we do. I'd say this really points to the overall depth of the USA team as a key to success. Do one of you stats guru's have any idea about a comparison of overall/frequency of games played by both sides? I'm assuming that the USA plays much more frequently than we do, but that's just a guess. On paper we are still a much better team. Canada does not have the number of players playing on top European sides that we have. We have 6 in the premiership, 3 in the Bundesliga, and one each on Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord, Olympiakos, Rosenberg and Standard Liege (although he is about to sign with Anderlect). We also have over 100 yanks playing in Europe's lower divisions. Canada has one La Liga player and one premiership player. The rest play for unfancied Scanadavian sides, or the English lower divisions, leaving A-league players to fill in the gaps. That is a big difference in quality. During the US-Canada match I noticed a big skill difference too. Almost all the US players have the ability to dribble in tight spaces. This allows us to hold the ball, allowing good off the ball movement for our other players to move into open spaces, thus getting in better positions to receive the ball. Against good teams Canada has trouble stringing passes together. All you have to do is play them with high pressure and they'll turn the ball over. Another big difference is funding. The USSF is very wealthy. They have the funds to schedule a lot of friendlies and training camps every year. MLS makes a huge difference too. It my not be la liga or the premiership, but it is of a good standard and sends players to top European leagues every year. This is something the A-league cannot do because the standard is not good enough to produce international caliber players. They have to leave the A-league in order to get the seasoning required to compete internationally. Mind you, I'm not ripping on Canada. On paper you guys have a pretty decent side. I think DeGuzman, Stalteri, and Hutchinson are good enough to get into the US team. Your main problems are lacking of funding by the CSA and lack of a quality domestic league. For this reason I do not see a CUSL as the answer. It wouldn't be any better (probably worse) than the A-league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 To be exact we have two in Premiership, one in La Liga. In Holland you have three in top clubs, we have one, though young still. We have a player at Bruges which is higher than the Standard level (though similar to Anderlecht), and while not at Rosenborg we have players at other Eliteserien clubs, some higher in standings than the perennial champions now. We also have a player on a top team in Greece. The difference is not as great as you are saying in these terms, just to compare with your examples. The real question is that we have players who are top league quality who have never done anything of significance for Canada. Radzinski is a clear example, a great dissapointment. But most of all we have less committment from our players, less funding as you say, and objectively much worse management of the program. If some of these things were solved playing A-League level players would not be that much of a problem, as it would not be too much different from Panama using mostly domestic based players. You can do it, even successfully (look at Bahrein, an odd example), as long as all the other pieces are also working well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Just a few points, Russell the yank at Rosenberg played alongside Marco Reda in Norway prior to his transfer. Both were equally well regarded. Russell moved to the best team in the League (Rosenberg) while Reda moved to a better League (Denmark). Similalry, "Gooch" the guy moving to Anderlect, played along side Klukowski at La Louvriere. Although both were very well regarded there (the American on loan from a french club side) Klukowski (now with club Brugge) was regarded as both the better player and the better prospect (at LL at least). Neither Kluka nor Reda were at the Gold Cup. Also, Canada is a team in transition which means that guys like Radzinski and De Vos are not part of the team much anymore while the US while older players like Reyna and Keller still have meaningful internationals to play and remain part of the US setup. And of course, O'Brien was released by Ajax in February, but he is a heck of a player and his release had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with his series of injuries. Just a technical point. I deleted a much longer post because I really don't want to get into it here. Playing the number of games the US does each year is the biggest single advantage, followed by having a domestic league in which every team plays the USMNT style which allows for a more seemless transfer of MLS players into the national team setup. It shows in the play, and creates something of a false impression regarding talent, IMO. Didn't really see the talent gulf referred to, except for Leduc who seemed out of place and the security the americans had in passing to space with confidence that a teammate was moving to fill that space. A luxury Canadian players, at this point do not have due mostly to unfamiliarity. There was a bit of a talnt difference, mostly when it came to the american 12-33 depth players versus, Canadian 12-33 depth players. I think that will almost always be the case, especially after the top 16 or so. Like it or not, Leduc may very well be one of our 10 best midfielder, and if not, he is very close. Don't think he'd even warrant a blip of attention with the USMNT, although I believe he'd be in MLS if not an import. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Just a few points, Russell the yank at Rosenberg played alongside Marco Reda in Norway prior to his transfer. Both were equally well regarded. Russell moved to the best team in the League (Rosenberg) while Reda moved to a better League (Denmark). Similalry, "Gooch" the guy moving to Anderlect, played along side Klukowski at La Louvriere. Although both were very well regarded there (the American on loan from a french club side) Klukowski (now with club Brugge) was regarded as both the better player and the better prospect (at LL at least). Neither Kluka nor Reda were at the Gold Cup. Also, Canada is a team in transition which means that guys like Radzinski and De Vos are not part of the team much anymore while the US while older players like Reyna and Keller still have meaningful internationals to play and remain part of the US setup. And of course, O'Brien was released by Ajax in February, but he is a heck of a player and his release had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with his series of injuries. Just a technical point. I deleted a much longer post because I really don't want to get into it here. Playing the number of games the US does each year is the biggest single advantage, followed by having a domestic league in which every team plays the USMNT style which allows for a more seemless transfer of MLS players into the national team setup. It shows in the play, and creates something of a false impression regarding talent, IMO. Didn't really see the talent gulf referred to, except for Leduc who seemed out of place and the security the americans had in passing to space with confidence that a teammate was moving to fill that space. A luxury Canadian players, at this point do not have due mostly to unfamiliarity. There was a bit of a talnt difference, mostly when it came to the american 12-33 depth players versus, Canadian 12-33 depth players. I think that will almost always be the case, especially after the top 16 or so. Like it or not, Leduc may very well be one of our 10 best midfielder, and if not, he is very close. Don't think he'd even warrant a blip of attention with the USMNT, although I believe he'd be in MLS if not an import I don't really get why it matters and what difference it makes what american player played with what canadian player in what league and how well regarded one was over the other yada, yada, yada. If it makes you feel better I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertuzzi44 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 This there and American Hargreaves? ie: chose a foriegn country despite obviously being American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertuzzi44 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 This there and American Hargreaves? ie: chose a foriegn country despite obviously being American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 David Hasselhoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 David Hasselhoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 quote: On paper we are still a much better team. Canada does not have the number of players playing on top European sides that we have. i'm not so sure... here is the breakdown of the U.S. roster for their last 3 world cup qualifying games. game 1 premiership - 2 championship - 1 bundesliga 1 - 2 bundesliga 2 - 1 MLS - 6 holland - 2 game 2 premiership - 1 championship - 1 bundesliga 1 - 2 MLS - 9 holland - 1 belgium - 1 game 3 premiership - 2 championship - 1 bundesliga 1 - 3 bundesliga 2 - 1 MLS - 5 holland - 1 belgium - 1 canada's present world cup team would prbably be: (correct me if i am wrong) premiership - 2 championship - 5 league 1 - 1 (hopefully not for long) la liga - 1 bundesliga 2 - 2 MLS - 1 belgium - 1 norway - 2 sweden - 1 greece - 1 (possibly) usl - 1 (ugg) those rosters are not vastly different...i think most people would rate the scandinavian leagues to be a similar level to MLS, so if you lump those players together and compare them to the MLS players on the american side, the teams are strikingly similer...the argument could also be made that the top championship sides (and one newly relegated premiership) that most of the candian players are with are higher quality than the bottom of the table bundesliga sides that 2 of the 3 americans are on...that is another argument of course... certainly if you were only looking at it on paper, knowing the quality of each league, you would be surprised that one team is in the elite rankings ahead of traditional powerhouse nations and former world cup champion sides like france, england, germany and italy and the other is lumped with tiny, impoverished countries, like albania, estonia and haiti. it is even more astonishing when you consider that the U.S. is probably the only country in the top 50 in which soccer (football) is merely a fringe sport....we need to find the secret. that USL player and the position he plays might be a big part of the secret....the americans have excellent keepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 quote:Originally posted by SamIAm I don't really get why it matters and what difference it makes what american player played with what canadian player in what league and how well regarded one was over the other yada, yada, yada. If it makes you feel better I guess. No, actually has no impact on how I feel Sam, I was simply responding to a post in which the club side that certain american players belonged was being touted as significant and explaining a bit on why I didn't find that particulalry convincing. Does coming on here and playing pop pyschologist make you feel better SamIam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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