CONCACAF Referee's

[Soccer_Josh]

Over the last year or so Canada has been hit with some pretty bad calls from referee's around the world, specifically CONCACAF referee's. To Gerry Dobson and Greg Forest its common to have an interesting game in CONCACAF. But what turns me away from watching games in this region is the officialling. Who here can remember the wonderful officialling of Benito Archundia. His "questionable calls" is one of the reasons why Canada isn't into the next round of qualifying. Once again against Honduras in WCQ a referee from the USA, a referee who you would expect a good game from makes an unknown call to cause Canada a win. And once again a CONCACAF referee makes a "questionable call" which cause Canada a loss. If you asked me its time for Fifa and CONCACAF to realise that they are doing a terrible job. I must admitt there are some good quality referee's in CONCACAF but from what ive seen CONCACAF has the worst referee's in the world.

Now its your turn. In your own opinion what do you think of referee's in CONCACAF.

[sstackho]

I had thought that Prendergast was the only CONCACAF referee that was good luck for us.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by sstackho

I had thought that Prendergast was the only CONCACAF referee that was good luck for us.

I think the last Gold Cup disproved that assertion already. He reffed the 2-0 loss, and he hated McKenna's guts in that game as well.

[Soccer_Josh]

Ive never watched a game in CONCACAF that hasn't involved Canada. So I don't know if its just Canada, or other Nations being hit with such bad referee's.

[Soccer_Josh]

quote:Originally posted by sstackho

I had thought that Prendergast was the only CONCACAF referee that was good luck for us.

Yeah I thought the same thing, he has been a referee for many years, he has ref'ed in World Cups, Gold cups, ect...I thought for once we would have a good quality game without me yelling and kicking the TV cause the referee made a bad call.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Soccer_Josh

Ive never watched a game in CONCACAF that hasn't involved Canada. So I don't know if its just Canada, or other Nations being hit with such bad referee's.

Typically all the teams get screwed from time to time, but Canada probably is the most consistently screwed team, and further we rarely, if ever, get a bad call against our opponents in our favour, making it a double-whammy. The US is probably second in that regard, I haven't seen too many games where they get the benefit of their opponent getting the shaft.

Prendergrast is generally a trigger-happy incompetent Ref, and he also screwed Belgium badly against Brazil in the last World Cup.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I wouldn't blame McKenna for having a go at the ref. In the heat of the moment, **** happens. He blew a call. So what? It happens to everyone, but for us it often seals our fate. That's the nature of the game. Last night's "officalling," despite the popular imagination, wasn't any different than what you get in Europe. If you can't take it, watch hockey. KP didn't miss three open goals.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Typically all the teams get screwed from time to time, but Canada probably is the most consistently screwed team, and further we rarely, if ever, get a bad call against our opponents in our favour, making it a double-whammy. The US is probably second in that regard, I haven't seen too many games where they get the benefit of their opponent getting the shaft.

Prendergrast is generally a trigger-happy incompetent Ref, and he also screwed Belgium badly against Brazil in the last World Cup.

We shouldn't forget had bad some of CONCACAF referees have been in the past too! Who remembers the horrible Tony Evangalista. That arrogant tw*t wasn't happy unless he was the star of the game. He screwed Italy in a friendly against Switzerland by calling an offside on a perfectly good goal.

He ruined many a CSL game for me. Thank god for the enforced retirement rule or he'd probably be around today. What an a**hole!

db

[Gian-Luca]

Yeah, he's one of two refs from those days who's name I can remember off the top of my head. The other is Gord Arrowsmith, who I think did the CSL All-stars vs. AC Milan game at Varsity in 1992, amongst many others.

[groovee99]

It hurts when referee's screw up calls, especially at the International level with so much more than just a game of soccer at stake. Not only calls against Canada, but any team. The worst is when a referee or asst referee deny a perfectly good goal. I am sure you can all remember some obvious blown calls over the last few years:

-WC06 Canada v Honduras in Edmonton

-WC06 Canada v Honduras in Honduras

-GC05 Canada v Costa Rica

-WC02 Spain v South Korea

-WC02 Italy v South Korea

-WC02 Italy v Croatia (WORST LINESMAN EVER! and I still see him lining)

-WC02 Brazil v Belgium (I felt bad for Belgium, they deserved the 1-0 lead no doubt)

this list could go on a very long time....but i am tired already

The thing that really blows my mind is when referee's blow HUGE calls and are still reffing HUGE games!

I believe Canada's team played well enough to be in the Final Round of CONCACAF qualifying, (they could have still made it, if it wasn't for Pat Onstad's unbelievable mistakes). Give Canada the honest, true calls and Lars in net and we are on are way to Germany!

[Loud Mouth Soup]

Lars in net and we're off to Germany?

Uhhh...no. He was rarely playing, still isn't, and that has hurt him.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Yeah, he's one of two refs from those days who's name I can remember off the top of my head. The other is Gord Arrowsmith, who I think did the CSL All-stars vs. AC Milan game at Varsity in 1992, amongst many others.

Arrowsmith is very respected by players and coaches. I didn't see that particular game unfortunately. How did he do? He used to handle NASL games as well.

Another Canadian official I didn't care for was Luigi Molina. Another arrogant pain in the ass.

db

[Gian-Luca]

Oh, I wasn't complaining about Gord, just that he's the only other Ref from the old days besides Evagelista who's name I recall seeing frequently from the NASL/CSL days (though others might come to mind).

He did an ok job in the CSA vs. Milan game, though one of his linesman made a poor call.

[The Ref]

Yesterday I talked to a seasoned referee from Europe who watched the Costa Rica game on the tube. In his opinion Prendergast was in error by calling that a deliberate handball and hence a penalty shot. Prendergast position in the field was poor.

As to Concacaf referees it is my opinion they are the reflextion of Fifa standards in a way. It is the national association, ie. Jamaica, who recommends officials to Fifa. These officials need to have done a number of Fifa sanctioned games and had had favorable assessments done. It is a complex process and it is not easy to get into the Fifa list while you are still young.

Surely there are screwballs who rise to the top, Archundia, Prendergast, etc. Canada and the U.S. play soccer differently from Central and South America, hence these concacaf refs. need more exposure to our different and more physical style. They view us as too physical with total disregard for the laws of the game. This of course is a biased view in their part and tend to result in calls based on that false perception rather than fact.

[Joe Keeper]

CONCACAF reffereeing needs almost a total overhaul. The perfect example is Benito Archundia (vs. HON in Ed). With all the blunders he called, he is seriously not fit to referee a mexican third divison tilt let alone internationals.

[groovee99]

Jamaica recommends CONCACAF refs?? hmmm...never knew that! I guess that explains Prendergast getting assignments at every freakin CONCACAF and FIFA event.

[Canuck Oranje]

I played in a game refereed by Arrowsmith more than ten years ago. His style really stood out. I think he was the strictest referee I ever saw, but he gave a clear warning if a player was crossing the line. You also knew he would toss you simply from his style so nobody (or very few) crossed him. Players would typically show the rugby style of respect to him (addressing him as Sir or Mr. Referee). I thought he was very good.

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Arrowsmith is very respected by players and coaches. I didn't see that particular game unfortunately. How did he do? He used to handle NASL games as well.

Another Canadian official I didn't care for was Luigi Molina. Another arrogant pain in the ass.

db

[Soccer_Josh]

quote:Originally posted by groovee99

It hurts when referee's screw up calls, especially at the International level with so much more than just a game of soccer at stake. Not only calls against Canada, but any team. The worst is when a referee or asst referee deny a perfectly good goal. I am sure you can all remember some obvious blown calls over the last few years:

-WC06 Canada v Honduras in Edmonton

-WC06 Canada v Honduras in Honduras

-GC05 Canada v Costa Rica

-WC02 Spain v South Korea

-WC02 Italy v South Korea

-WC02 Italy v Croatia (WORST LINESMAN EVER! and I still see him lining)

-WC02 Brazil v Belgium (I felt bad for Belgium, they deserved the 1-0 lead no doubt)

this list could go on a very long time....but i am tired already

The thing that really blows my mind is when referee's blow HUGE calls and are still reffing HUGE games!

I believe Canada's team played well enough to be in the Final Round of CONCACAF qualifying, (they could have still made it, if it wasn't for Pat Onstad's unbelievable mistakes). Give Canada the honest, true calls and Lars in net and we are on are way to Germany!

I support the WNT team aswell...and they have had some pretty outrageous referee's.

Keri Seitz comes to mind:(

ansd Anna DeToni:(

[RJB]

No matter how bad the referee is, the team needs to score. Actually, the team needs to get shots on net first, and then worry about scoring.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

No matter how bad the referee is, the team needs to score. Actually, the team needs to get shots on net first, and then worry about scoring.

Thank you. All the talk of refereeing gives the impression that they are a cause or contributing factor in our results. To some small degree, you can always argue that referee decisions do contibute to whether or not goals are scored and we certainly were robbed of a win in edmonton in the last WCQ. But you can only claim that referees are denied us goals if we put ourselves in those positions. Which unfortunately we do not. For example, when was the last time that our fwds were denied a penalty for a foul in the box? We simply do not do a good enough job to move the ball fwd in to dangerous scoring position. Therefore, we do not get fouled and benefit from poor officiating.

[Massive Attack]

But the refereeing has affected our results at this Gold Cup. Costa Rica scored a bogus goal, and the US should have played the entire second half 1 man down. How do these bad ref calls not change the result?

As for your question of a non-penalty call, Josh Simpson was body-checked in the American box after a long run. That play could have been called for a pk.

[Crazy_Yank]

quote:Originally posted by sstackho

I had thought that Prendergast was the only CONCACAF referee that was good luck for us.

Prendergast is a gastly poor official. He might be concacaf's worst official. In 2001 his phantom "handball" call against Greg Vanney cost the US a point on the road. After watching the replay, unless Vanney had a hand coming out of his fore head anyone with more than two brain cells could see it wasn't a hand ball.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

But the refereeing has affected our results at this Gold Cup. Costa Rica scored a bogus goal, and the US should have played the entire second half 1 man down. How do these bad ref calls not change the result?

As for your question of a non-penalty call, Josh Simpson was body-checked in the American box after a long run. That play could have been called for a pk.

I am sure that there many soccer fans around the world who could tell you lengendary stories about how their side got screwed by this and that call. Take the last world cup, Just about any side that played against Korea could claim that they were robbed by bogus officating, Belgium versus Brazil, etc etc.

Refereeing is imperfect, imcompetitant and may even be corrupt at times. But what logical explanation could there be for canada to be more adversely affect by refereeing than any other national side? Do they Hate canada more than anyone else? I cannot think of anything?

Talking about reffing is a way of blowing off steam? there is nothing wrong with that. Thats what what these forums are for. But if one is to get into a serious analysis, referreeing becomes a factor that is very far down on the list.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I am sure that there many soccer fans around the world who could tell you lengendary stories about how their side got screwed by this and that call. Take the last world cup, Just about any side that played against Korea could claim that they were robbed by bogus officating, Belgium versus Brazil, etc etc.

Refereeing is imperfect, imcompetitant and may even be corrupt at times. But what logical explanation could there be for canada to be more adversely affect by refereeing than any other national side? Do they Hate canada more than anyone else? I cannot think of anything?

Talking about reffing is a way of blowing off steam? there is nothing wrong with that. Thats what what these forums are for. But if one is to get into a serious analysis, referreeing becomes a none factor.

There are actually a number of reasons why Canada might be penalized more than other nations in CONCACAF, and would note that they apply to the US as well, who have some hard luck stories as well. First is that we tend to play a physical style. This is our own doing but it is not illegal. CONCACAF referees, however have a problem with this and penalize it excessively. Second is that almost everyone we play likes to dive, thus fooling out of position refs who call based on the illusion they see, rather than the reality. We do not do that anywhere near as much, so our opponents are not going to get the bogus calls anywhere as much. Think about the games you have seen over the years and think about the number of yellows for hard but fair challenges versus yellows for diving. So combine our physical play, referee's aversion to that, and our opponents diving and you get the recipe for Canada getting screwed over repeatedly. The vast majority of CONCACAF benefit from this scenario so no efforts will ever be taken to redress the situation. Canada really has to adjust its style of play to fit the referees. That is hard with all of players playing in European Leagues where the physical style is common and accepted. The US has mitigated this problem somewhat by having the MLS playing the style the US nats want - and need - to pursue. A third issue, btw, is that we do not flow a lot of cash into the CONCACAF Coffers, so CONCACAF has no compulsion to stop screwing us and we don't have the juice to change that.

Don't get me wrong, Freekick. Officials make mistakes all of the time. Its part of the game. And I can live it when it evens out. And some of the disparity is exactly for the reasons you state: we do not put enough pressure on teams to get the make-up calls. But the deck is also stacked against us in CONCACAF, some of it of our own doing, and I don't think we can just pretend that is not the case. The solution though, in my opinion, lies with us, because the "we'd rather fight than change" attitude will see its continuation.

I would also note that often when a South American team loses with a European ref in charge, they whine about how the ref didn't penalize physical play. We are in, a Latin confederation playing a European style. It catches up with us. Its not right, but its the way it is.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

It used to be one of points that I used to raise often in the days when Holger had just taken over. My beef with with the Lennarduzzi era was just that, we played too much of a British style ( for lack of a better word) and that was not suited to the climate and culture of this region. I often mentioned how we would be adversely punished referee-wise for playing taht syle. I was happy that Holger implemented more of a midfield containment/domination system because at least you wouldn't be in a position to hold off and defend.

Yes, the refereeing does reflect the style of play and in this region with the constant stopages and reffing mistakes, it favours the teams that can hold on to ball and move forward. The more that we deviate from this, the worst off we are. And bringing players over from UK/europe only exacerabte this and adds to the problems of acclimatization. But you know what, its not concacaf's fault that our players all play in Europe/UK. Maybe we shoudl follow the edict: " when in Rome do as the Roman do".