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Two minutes for shame or glory


Guest Jeffery S.

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Guest Jeffery S.

My neighbourhood team in Barcelona, Poble Sec, in what is essentially a regional division at the 5th tier level, faces relegation if they give up a goal in the two minutes they have left to play after a match on the final league day last week was suspended in extra time.

The team has been in relegation zone all year, but with a great 7 wins and two ties in the last nine matches have gotten out, as long as last week's 2-2 draw vs Rapitenca, a team from the delta of the Ebro River, stands. The rival team needed to win the game to promote to 3rd division (there is a 2B here, thus the numerical confusion), as they started the day in a promotion spot. When they scored their second goal to draw it in extra time, their crazy fans, who'd been throwing beer cans at our players all game, invaded the field (little crowd control at this level), the police were called in, and the ref called the game. A very foolish reaction of the fans, as the draw did nothing for them, and they knew the other result of their direct rival, as this level of soccer is actually covered by live radio here, with reporters in every stadium.

The game is to be played behind closed doors at noon, two minutes left. Since it is easy to see into the field from one end with no stands, from a parking lot in fact, will go and watch and come back with a report tomorrow.

Poble Sec was founded in 1928 (more or less) and has played as high as 3rd tier in Spain, considered one of the modest historical sides in the city of BCN.

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Guest Jeffery S.

So I go to the game and it turns out noone is there: the Appeals Committee, after hearing the complaints of the team that did promote in lieu of the Rapitenca, decided on Saturday that it would not be played yet until their appeal was properly dealt with.

One of those stories that could go on for weeks. Turns out the recent elections for the Catalan Football Federation were annulled due to voting irregularities, and there is no presidency, no one in charge. One of the teams that actually challenged the results in the first place was Poble Sec, so I suspect that someone in the committee thought it was better not to get the president any angrier.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

So I go to the game and it turns out noone is there: the Appeals Committee, after hearing the complaints of the team that did promote in lieu of the Rapitenca, decided on Saturday that it would not be played yet until their appeal was properly dealt with.

One of those stories that could go on for weeks. Turns out the recent elections for the Catalan Football Federation were annulled due to voting irregularities, and there is no presidency, no one in charge. One of the teams that actually challenged the results in the first place was Poble Sec, so I suspect that someone in the committee thought it was better not to get the president any angrier.

sounds almost as bad as the Alberta Soccer Association. :)

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by DJT

Seems to me that the match should just be given to Poble Sec since it was the Rapitenca fans who created the problems?

The problem is technically the home team is responsible for crowd control, so even if an opposing team fan runs on the field it could be your problem, you could be fined, for example. Of course at this level there is a single stand and the rest of the field can be walked around. There is no way to control fans at all -just entrance into the large fenced off multi-sport complex where the pitch is- not even a symbolic barrier, which is why I love going in the end. My son and I pass a ball back and forth and do a few laps of the pitch each game, there is plenty of grass and trees around the field. Then we sit in the stand and shout along with the radicals (about 6 guys with a big drum) or with the oldtimers, those 50 retired men chewing cigars and reminiscing about the old days.

I have seen a few games called before time this year, one at the same level, different teams, where a few players of a visiting team jumped into the stands and started hitting fans. Turned out one local fan was arguing too vehemently with his dad. Disgraceful. Perhaps the worst part of this past season in Spain has been crowd behaviour, including racist chanting, generalized edginess and lack of sportsmanship towards refs, other fans.

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Is there a decent website that shows results/standings of the spanish leagues below division 2B?? Even soccer-spain.com only covers the first 3 tiers.

I kind of got in-to following the club "Sant Andreu" a few weeks ago when I was in Barcelona. I think Joan Laporta and Sandro Rossell became friends when they used to play for this club. Anyway... they were in a battle for promotion to division 2B with clubs like Peralada, Balaguer, Santboia and Reus - most of whom they were playing during the last 5 rounds of the season. They beat Balaguer away to reach the promotion-zone with 3 matches to play. So I'm kind of wondering what happened after that...

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Is there a decent website that shows results/standings of the spanish leagues below division 2B?? Even soccer-spain.com only covers the first 3 tiers.

I kind of got in-to following the club "Sant Andreu" a few weeks ago when I was in Barcelona. I think Joan Laporta and Sandro Rossell became friends when they used to play for this club. Anyway... they were in a battle for promotion to division 2B with clubs like Peralada, Balaguer, Santboia and Reus - most of whom they were playing during the last 5 rounds of the season. They beat Balaguer away to reach the promotion-zone with 3 matches to play. So I'm kind of wondering what happened after that...

There used to be, up to about a month ago, a great site, www.futbolme.com. It might be revived, but they said they couldnt maintain it. It had 1st, 2nd, 2B, 3rd, and all the top regional divisions, plus women's first and second tier and Juveniles (U-17) leagues. Stats, forums, pretty good indeed. Try it, they may have got it back. (Edit, just took a look, it is back up, really good if you know what you are looking for, and clearly set up; here is my team near the bottom of this table, http://foro.futbolme.com/nou_projecte/index2.php, if the point stands from the draw we jump up a spot and are not relegated; relegation occurs for teams technically beating it if too many Catalan sides go down from higher divisions or if no Catalan teams, like Sant Andreu, go up to 2B).

For Catalunya a badly designed site, though with the info, is www.futbolcatalunya.com. They have all of the levels, and down to about 11 year olds. But not as clear and not pretty.

Sant Andreu is in the promo playoff to go up to 2B, on Sunday they lost at home to Manacor from Majorca (Rafa Nadal's home town), an extra time penalty gave the rivals a 1-2 first leg lead. The team is financially supported by former Barça president Joan Gaspart, and -get this- the brother of Ignacio Clavero who lives in my apartment block, Pau Clavero, plays for them, defensive mid, getting old and gets little time lately. So its a small world as you can see.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

There used to be, up to about a month ago, a great site, www.futbolme.com. It might be revived, but they said they couldnt maintain it. It had 1st, 2nd, 2B, 3rd, and all the top regional divisions, plus women's first and second tier and Juveniles (U-17) leagues. Stats, forums, pretty good indeed. Try it, they may have got it back. (Edit, just took a look, it is back up, really good if you know what you are looking for, and clearly set up; here is my team near the bottom of this table, http://foro.futbolme.com/nou_projecte/index2.php, if the point stands from the draw we jump up a spot and are not relegated; relegation occurs for teams technically beating it if too many Catalan sides go down from higher divisions or if no Catalan teams, like Sant Andreu, go up to 2B).

For Catalunya a badly designed site, though with the info, is www.futbolcatalunya.com. They have all of the levels, and down to about 11 year olds. But not as clear and not pretty.

Sant Andreu is in the promo playoff to go up to 2B, on Sunday they lost at home to Manacor from Majorca (Rafa Nadal's home town), an extra time penalty gave the rivals a 1-2 first leg lead. The team is financially supported by former Barça president Joan Gaspart, and -get this- the brother of Ignacio Clavero who lives in my apartment block, Pau Clavero, plays for them, defensive mid, getting old and gets little time lately. So its a small world as you can see.

Cool thanks! Geez, there's a wealth of information in that futbolme.com website. I'm not surprised they couldn't keep it up for a while. At first glance it looks like the promotion playoff to division 2B involves 80 clubs!! But i'll look at it in more detail when I have time...

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Guest Jeffery S.

What I thought would be resolved on the field in 2 minutes took about two weeks to sort out in the office. The game stands, my local boys stay in the division.

In general in Spain it is much better for a team to represent a city than a neighbourhood. Indeed, there is only one team that has been in top flight in the last 15 years with the name of its neighbourhood.

Anyone want to take a guess?

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

What I thought would be resolved on the field in 2 minutes took about two weeks to sort out in the office. The game stands, my local boys stay in the division.

In general in Spain it is much better for a team to represent a city than a neighbourhood. Indeed, there is only one team that has been in top flight in the last 15 years with the name of its neighbourhood.

Anyone want to take a guess?

Osasuna, if it's a neighbourhood in the city of Pamplona? The last time I was there I was drunk and running in fronto of the bulls in the 70's, but I have a vague recollection of that.

There are lots of clubs that are named for other things, such as Betis in Seville and Levante in Valencia, but I don't think they are neighbourhoods.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Actually I don't know the meaning of Osasuna, must be a Basque word. But that is not a neighbourhood of Pamplona, no (great, intense Cup final last night by the way).

I think a town does better as there is greater administrative support from local government, people tend to have pride in their hometown and go to games, local business people see the sense in sponsoring. In my neighbourhood the population is 18,000 and we get a few hundred out to games, and there is no generalized passion for the team in the neighbourhood, only oldtimers and freaks like me.

The team that represents a neighbourhood is now in promotion playoffs for 2nd division, after being in 1st a lot in recent years.

Osasuna, if it's a neighbourhood in the city of Pamplona? The last time I was there I was drunk and running in fronto of the bulls in the 70's, but I have a vague recollection of that.

There are lots of clubs that are named for other things, such as Betis in Seville and Levante in Valencia, but I don't think they are neighbourhoods.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Actually, promotion to 2nd is between the top four of the four 2B divisions, so that is 16 teams. And to 2B there are the top four in each of 17 division 3s, one for each "Autonomous Community", like a CDN province; so that is 68 teams. 3rd divisions in Spain are technically the jurisdiction of the regional soccer federation, as are the next ones down, and only teams from your region plays in them (exceptions are teams from the Spanish cities in Africa, Ceuta and Melilla, who play with Andalucia).

Okay, I think I got is somewhat figured-out. So Sant Andreu won the second-leg of their playoff with Manacor 2-0 to advance to the next round against Mazarron. I take it that 17 clubs get promoted to 2B (since it appears that the bottom 4 clubs from each of the four-2B divisions plus the loser of the playoff b/w the 5th-from-last-placed 2B division clubs go down to div. 3), right? So this is the final promotion playoff round??

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Okay, I think I got is somewhat figured-out. So Sant Andreu won the second-leg of their playoff with Manacor 2-0 to advance to the next round against Mazarron. I take it that 17 clubs get promoted to 2B (since it appears that the bottom 4 clubs from each of the four-2B divisions plus the loser of the playoff b/w the 5th-from-last-placed 2B division clubs go down to div. 3), right? So this is the final promotion playoff round??

Right about Sant Andreu, they beat Manacor and face Mazarron, who took out Valencia's B team. If they win the home and away they go up to 2B.

Right too about their being one more of the worst fifth place teams in 2B going down to make 17 relegated. Local team Santa Coloma, who beat Barça in the Spanish cup this year, was just saved from going down by beating a team from Burgos home and away. In fact, if they had ended up being the worst fifth that went down, my neighbourhood team would have been pushed down as well, pending other sides from the region -like Sant Andreu- getting promoted.

As is, all the Catalan sides from 3rd division got through their round and could still promote.

The proper term for all this is called "compensated promotion-relegation". Ain't it complicated?

Hell, since noone is reading this anyway, it is actually more complicated in Spanish third division than I said, I actually lied a bit; so here goes: there are in fact 18 groups in third division, but from two of them (Navarra and la Rioja) only the top two go into promotion playoffs. Meanwhile, Andalucia is divided into two due to the size of the region and number of teams. And the Canary Islanders play off only against themselves, as noone wants to travel there for a promo playoff at this level. Meaning there is always a Canary Is team going up to 2B and not necessarily one going down: a lot of Canary Island teams at the 2B level normally.

Bloody mess if you ask me. But in fact, Spain is now quite a decentralized country, the regional federations are strong with deep-set identity (some regional soccer federations are older than the Spanish one), so there is all this political playing to keep everyone happy. And hardly anyone is.

So, you never told me if you were here when Barça won the league, did you see them play by chance?

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Right about Sant Andreu, they beat Manacor and face Mazarron, who took out Valencia's B team. If they win the home and away they go up to 2B.

Right too about their being one more of the worst fifth place teams in 2B going down to make 17 relegated. Local team Santa Coloma, who beat Barça in the Spanish cup this year, was just saved from going down by beating a team from Burgos home and away. In fact, if they had ended up being the worst fifth that went down, my neighbourhood team would have been pushed down as well, pending other sides from the region -like Sant Andreu- getting promoted.

As is, all the Catalan sides from 3rd division got through their round and could still promote.

The proper term for all this is called "compensated promotion-relegation". Ain't it complicated?

Hell, since noone is reading this anyway, it is actually more complicated in Spanish third division than I said, I actually lied a bit; so here goes: there are in fact 18 groups in third division, but from two of them (Navarra and la Rioja) only the top two go into promotion playoffs. Meanwhile, Andalucia is divided into two due to the size of the region and number of teams. And the Canary Islanders play off only against themselves, as noone wants to travel there for a promo playoff at this level. Meaning there is always a Canary Is team going up to 2B and not necessarily one going down: a lot of Canary Island teams at the 2B level normally.

Bloody mess if you ask me. But in fact, Spain is now quite a decentralized country, the regional federations are strong with deep-set identity (some regional soccer federations are older than the Spanish one), so there is all this political playing to keep everyone happy. And hardly anyone is.

So, you never told me if you were here when Barça won the league, did you see them play by chance?

No, I was only in Barcelona during the week. I arrived the Monday after they won the league. So I was one day late for the parade even. Damn!! However, I still made it to Camp Nou (went to the FCB museum). Did you take part in the celebrations that Saturday night on LA Rambla? I was in Amsterdam at the time but I saw the party on TV there.

The promotion playoffs must make for some excitement but it seems rather unfair. A club can theoretically go undefeated all (regular) season and still not have much (if any) advantage over third and fourth placed teams entering the playoff phase . IF I was doing it, the playoff would consist of the 68 clubs placing #2 to #5, with the winner playing one of the first-place teams in the 'final' promotion round.

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Guest Jeffery S.

I went to the celebrations on the Saturday night, the game in Levante ended late but there were still maybe 15,000 at the top of the Ramblas. Actually ran into a few friends there by chance. Fun, lost my fear of the flares and even took a few firecrackers with me.

Regarding the promotion playoffs, it used to be less fair, as you made up a group of four, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place team in different groups, and they played a home and away, six match league. Now at least the better teams get home advantage all the way through, and it is only 4 matches, semis and finals.

I think the team that has been in promotion playoffs the most times and never has gone up to 2nd division is precisely Santa Coloma, the Barcelona suburb. Maybe they have played off 8 times or something, always failing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Jeffery S.

So amacpher, that team you were following, Sant Andreu, promoted to 2B today, that is third tier. When I was coming in from out of town around 9 I saw fireworks, and I just realized that they were coming from their stadium.

Turns out that the story of this thread, a promotion-relegation fight involving my neighbourhood team, was actually resolved today as well. Our rival a month ago, Rapitenca, just missed promotion to third div. (ending fourth), but because not only Sant Andreu but two other Catalan teams also went up to 2B(Hospitalet and Reus), the two teams just below my team Poble Sec were saved from relegation, and the Rapitenca was promoted to third, as they have to fill the necessary spots in third division left by these teams going up.

What was supposed to be two minutes to decide the fate of two teams ends up being a whole month of playoffs that turns one of their's heartbreak into celebration. Better for us, as we won't have to deal with their fans next season, pure hell.

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