Chris Williams in talks with 3rd-Tier German team

[Daniel]

Chris Williams, the ex-Impact player, is in talks with a 3rd division German team, according to F-E Corbin of RDS.

[Mr.Impact]

German 3rd division ???? Man thats just to weak for a player of his caliber.

I had a chance to watch this kid play a supporting role with the Impact, and can't remember him having one bad outing. I personally think he deserves better, and i'm not convinced that that the German third dividion is much better then the USL first division.

[Batigol]

USL first division is a joke compared to the German third. The teams have way more more, better stadiums, better crowds, 10 times more professional than any USL first division club. I'm sorry but you can't compare europe to North America in terms of Football.

[Daniel]

Hey Batigol, who's talking organization? We're talking players here. Good USL players usually go to the 1st-2nd tier of European leagues, depending on the country (hell, Stalteri started in Toronto!). Williams is good but has been crucially underexposed, playing as an unspectacular (if solid) sub.

However, if he signs for a big team or one which is looking good for promotion, he might be where Nsaliwa is within a year.

[Jason]

Someone like Ed could probably do a better job of commenting on this than I can, but my understanding is that the third tier of German football is quite good quality. There are a bunch of very professional teams with big stadiums and a lot of supporters that fell onto hard financial times. I would suspect that along with England, they are best third tiers in Europe, and are probably comparable to a lot of other country's second tiers.

Also, you can't disregard the benefits of living in a total football environment. Even if the quality of play is similar, the time and intensity invested is much higher compared to most USL clubs. I think more training and no need to work a non-football job has it's merits.

Jason

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Hey Batigol, who's talking organization? We're talking players here. Good USL players usually go to the 1st-2nd tier of European leagues, depending on the country (hell, Stalteri started in Toronto!). Williams is good but has been crucially underexposed, playing as an unspectacular (if solid) sub.

However, if he signs for a big team or one which is looking good for promotion, he might be where Nsaliwa is within a year.

Funny you should mention Stalteri. I'm pretty sure he spent 3 years in the German 3rd division before he moved up to the senior team at Werder Bremen. Julian de Guzman started in the 4th division in Germany (didn't hurt his development).

It's hard to compare leagues. The North American fans will trot out the wins against Euro teams but most of those happen in the summer when the Euro teams are basically on a team bonding/fitness tour. Williams hooking up with a 3rd division team would be GREAT for him personally I think. As long as it is a stable organization, he would be in an 11 month a year football environment, gain experience and exposure.

[ditty]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

Someone like Ed could probably do a better job of commenting on this than I can, but my understanding is that the third tier of German football is quite good quality. There are a bunch of very professional teams with big stadiums and a lot of supporters that fell onto hard financial times. I would suspect that along with England, they are best third tiers in Europe, and are probably comparable to a lot of other country's second tiers.

Also, you can't disregard the benefits of living in a total football environment. Even if the quality of play is similar, the time and intensity invested is much higher compared to most USL clubs. I think more training and no need to work a non-football job has it's merits.

Jason

I've seen some German Regionalliga (3rd Tier) and a fair bit of A-League and I'd say there aren't many A-League teams that would be competitive in the Regionalliga. The German 3rd Tier is quite lucrative and teams regularly field teams with as many imports as Bundesliga sides. I'm not sure about now, but a few years ago many Regionalliga teams attacted players from strong first division sides in Eastern European countries like Poland, Former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria to name a few. The money in Germany was simply better.

IMO, A-Leaguers are often as technical as a German 3rd Leaguer but the German game is more organized, polished, deeper in talent and just more professional.

[Daniel]

We're not talking about teams, rather about this individual player. He's a talented young midfielder/defender with a lot of potential.

As for Stalteri, he was simply on the reserves, who happened to play in the 3rd (what about Juli?).

[Gloucester in FLA]

Years ago (in the early nineties) I had a trial with Rot-Weiss Essen, which at the time was playing in the old Oberliga-third tier. Well, as a striker from Canada, coming from an amateur team, my competition included two strikers from Red Star Belgrade,and needless to say, they were well polished professionals. The entire organization was first class, including a great stadium and team infrastructure, and the experience was amazing. The fact that the team had played in the 2.Bundesliga the year before also helped. That is true of several teams in 3rd tier now.....teams that were recently higher up and are striving to go up again. My point is that German 3rd tier is great soccer with great teams(and its share of weaker ones as well), and with a year-round soccer enviroment, there really is no comparison to a part-time league like the A (not to say that great players cannot come from it).

[ditty]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

We're not talking about teams, rather about this individual player. He's a talented young midfielder/defender with a lot of potential.

As for Stalteri, he was simply on the reserves, who happened to play in the 3rd (what about Juli?).

Ah, okay, I'll simplify it for you: Better teams usually = better players. Check Gloucester's post below, I think he has the best perspective.

I'm not saying there aren't better options for Williams, I'm saying it's my opinion that the Regionalliga is a better one than the A-League.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Can anyone here please tell us what Regionalliga team Chris is presently negotiating with???

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Can anyone here please tell us what Regionalliga team Chris is presently negotiating with???

We don't know.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by Batigol

USL first division is a joke compared to the German third. The teams have way more more, better stadiums, better crowds, 10 times more professional than any USL first division club. I'm sorry but you can't compare europe to North America in terms of Football.

Dont know where you are from, but the Montreal Impact, is not your average USL first division team. The players under Saputo have always been treated first class. This has been since day one when in 1993, Saputo held a training camp in Italy, at his expense. A new stadium is on its way, and I doubt that it will be ten times worse then what is found in the German third division.

[Grizzly]

I just attended my first Impact game on the weekend and also regularly attended 3rd division games for several years in Germany as my team regularly goes up and down between the third and fourth division. In my opinion many people, both European and North American greatly overestimate the quality of European lower division and non-big four leagues just because they are European. There are roughly 10 countries with strong top leagues and 4 strong second tier leagues. After that there are a lot of leagues with one or two decent teams and a poor quality after that.

My opinion of the Impact-Rochester game was that it was a decent third division level game. It was certainly a stronger level than the German fourth division even when the better fourth division teams play. The German third division does have a decent and fairly consistent level throughout the league. There are big teams (RW Essen, Braunschwieg, St. Pauli, Dynamo Dresden) that do end up in this division for a certain amount of time for various reasons and can occasionally bring in some players that are a bit above third division level. This is not the norm, however. The fact that a fair number of players who have experience in Eastern European first divisions should not fool one into overratting the league. Many of these leagues have one or two good teams while the rest of the league is about 3rd division level. The level of most Eastern European leagues declined greatly after the end of communism as players were able to and did play in the west. Now most Eastern European leagues are feeder leagues with the very top players going to the big four and the other talented players playing in Russia or the Ukraine leaving a much lower level at home. In Leipzig we had several players from former Yugoslavia first division and a keeper who was a Czech first division starter as well as Hungarians and Bulgarians. The keeper was good and now plays 2nd BL but was not a better keeper than Sutton and one of the Yugoslavians was young but talented and eventually made his way to 2nd BL. However, none of these players including the two mentioned were really superior to the level of players on the Impact. I think the Impact would be a decent team in either of the Regionalligas in Germany. They might not be a promotion team but I think they would be mid to upper mid table.

This all being said I think this would still be a positive move for Williams and don't see why Mr. Impact would have a problem with it. He will be playing at the same level or slightly higher and definitely with a more consistent level of play every week (i.e. no teams as bad as the Lynx). The season will be much longer, the training facilities better with superior coaching and he will have the opportunity to learn a different style of play. He will also play in a few great stadiums with large fan support and under more pressure to perform. Most importantly he will have a foot in the door of German and European soccer, will be scouted constantly and also have the possibility of promoting to a superior league. If Williams is, as Mr. Impact says, too good for the 3rd division he will be playing at a higher level far sooner than if he stayed with the Impact where noone is scouting him. He will also probably earn a significantly higher salary.

[Mr.Impact]

Hold up Grizz....First off you state that the German Third division teams have better traing facilities, and better coaching then what he would have with the Impact. I would have to disagree. The Impact hold their team practicies at the Catalogna Soccer facility in Lachine Qc. This facility, holds indoor pitches aswell as outdoor pitches with FIFA approuved field turf. The players have access to the Coaches involved with Soccer excellence program in Quebec, aswell as their head Coach, and two assistants full time. The team also has two physio therapists at its disposal aswell as an equipment manager. What im trying to say, is that The Impact is in the top 5 professional teams in North America, MLS teams included.

You talk about pressure playing in the German Third Division......well maybe, if you consider VILLAGE pressure......most teams draw between 3000 to 10,000 people per game, we average over 8k. Since the Expos are gone, and The Alouettes are yet to begin regular season play, Sports fans in Montreal are aware of what is going on, given the Media coverage that the team recieves.

As far as Salary is Considered, I cant confirm What Chris Williams was making last year, Nor Do I know what an Average German Third division player makes. Therefore it is difficult to say that he will be making more money in the German Third division.

As far as exposure goes, recent trnsfers from A-league Clubs, lead me to believe that, no matter where you play, if you are good, and destined to play in top european teams, someone will find you.

[ditty]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

Hold up Grizz....First off you state that the German Third division teams have better traing facilities, and better coaching then what he would have with the Impact. I would have to disagree. The Impact hold their team practicies at the Catalogna Soccer facility in Lachine Qc. This facility, holds indoor pitches aswell as outdoor pitches with FIFA approuved field turf. The players have access to the Coaches involved with Soccer excellence program in Quebec, aswell as their head Coach, and two assistants full time. The team also has two physio therapists at its disposal aswell as an equipment manager. What im trying to say, is that The Impact is in the top 5 professional teams in North America, MLS teams included.

You talk about pressure playing in the German Third Division......well maybe, if you consider VILLAGE pressure......most teams draw between 3000 to 10,000 people per game, we average over 8k. Since the Expos are gone, and The Alouettes are yet to begin regular season play, Sports fans in Montreal are aware of what is going on, given the Media coverage that the team recieves.

As far as Salary is Considered, I cant confirm What Chris Williams was making last year, Nor Do I know what an Average German Third division player makes. Therefore it is difficult to say that he will be making more money in the German Third division.

As far as exposure goes, recent trnsfers from A-league Clubs, lead me to believe that, no matter where you play, if you are good, and destined to play in top european teams, someone will find you.

Herr Impact,

The only German 3rd division salary I know about was a guy I once played with who was an average to lower 3rd Tier player. In 1999 he made the Cdn equivalent of $80,000/year.

Are the Impact routinely scouted, day in and day out, by Bundesliga 1and 2 teams? The Regionalliga is. It also has clear value in Europe. All the clubs in Europe will have an idea of the standard. If Williams does well in Germany, every 1st and 2nd div club will know about it. I doubt any of them follow the A-Leauge and few know the standard.

I agree that the Impact situation is probably as good as it gets in the A-League and they are a model for professional soccer in North America but I'd agree with Grizzly that no team in the A-League can likey compete for the kind of exposure a guy would get the German 3rd tier.

[Grizzly]

To add to ditty's comments:

The $80 000 salary given by ditty is a pretty accurate reflection of what an average 3rd division player may earn. How many of the Impact's players can live on their salary without holding a second job?

As far as pressure goes the first factor is that winning the 3rd division title means more than just being the champion of a lower tier league. It means promoting to real world of professional soccer where the team will receive millions more in television and advertising revenues and where the player will have instant international exposure to higher division teams. If the Impact were able to promote to the MLS through winning the title there might be similar pressure but at present there is far less to play for in the USL D1. There is great variety in attendance figures in the 3rd division from the poorly drawing 1st division reserve teams to teams like St. Pauli who drew an average of over 16 000 per game. The 3rd division averages from 1000 to 16000 while the USL averages from 1000 to 8000. One must also not ignore the quality of the fans. Many of the fans in 3rd division games have lived with soccer all their lives, are diehard supporters of their team and have paid a fair bit of money for their ticket. The Impact gave out thousands of free tickets for their home opener and I met several people on the way to the stadium who had free tickets and had never attended a soccer game before. Other than the Ultras section most of the other fans seemed to get more excited by the guys shooting t-shirts into the audience than the game itself. If you make a mistake in 3rd division you have thousands of fans screaming at you plus extensive media coverage of your error the next day while the many USL spectators don't even understand the rules of the game.

I like DeSantis as a coach. However, there is no doubt that the 3rd division has superior coaching. Many former first and second Bundesliga coaches are coaching at this level to work their way up the ladder again as well as many former first division coaches from other countries. Some teams have three or four coaches on their staff who are superior to the average USL head coach.

As far as transfer possibilities go there is no comparison at all. Upper level European teams are well aware of the level in the 3rd division and many will outright sign a player based on scouting reports and not even require a trial. The most a USL player can hope for is an agent who can get him a trial at some teams where he can hope to impress. If the USL is such a good place for exposure why is Williams trialing in the 3rd and not 1st division? Scouts from Bundesliga teams regularly attended 3rd division matches in Leipzig and I doubt there are very many European scouts attending USL matches. On those odd occasions that European teams do send scouts to N. America it is to MLS games which at least has some profile in Europe unlike the USL which has no profile or reputation.

None of this is meant to knock the Impact or criticize the way the have developed soccer in Montreal over the last several years. They are indeed the best run organization in the USL. However, one has to be realistic as well about their capabilities. Just as some people think that everything European is quality in soccer regardless of the level one can overestimate the sucess and level of the team one supports. While anyone would prefer it if Williams could sign as a starter for Bayern Munich one has to be realistic about his chances. The choice isn't between a 1st division team or a 3rd division team but between playing for the Impact or going to a 3rd division team. I think if Williams is able to sign for this mystery 3rd division team there is little doubt that he would be playing at a slightly higher level, receive a significant salary increase, be able to play and train year round and receive a massive amount of increased exposure to other European teams. I don't see how anyone could see this as a negative development regardless of what their opinion is of his potential nor how anyone could recommend that he turn down this opportunity to play for the Impact.

[Daniel]

And even then, he'd be a sub with the Impact without much chance of being a starter...

He was probably making around $20k CAD with Montreal.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

To add to ditty's comments:

The $80 000 salary given by ditty is a pretty accurate reflection of what an average 3rd division player may earn. How many of the Impact's players can live on their salary without holding a second job?

As far as pressure goes the first factor is that winning the 3rd division title means more than just being the champion of a lower tier league. It means promoting to real world of professional soccer where the team will receive millions more in television and advertising revenues and where the player will have instant international exposure to higher division teams. If the Impact were able to promote to the MLS through winning the title there might be similar pressure but at present there is far less to play for in the USL D1. There is great variety in attendance figures in the 3rd division from the poorly drawing 1st division reserve teams to teams like St. Pauli who drew an average of over 16 000 per game. The 3rd division averages from 1000 to 16000 while the USL averages from 1000 to 8000. One must also not ignore the quality of the fans. Many of the fans in 3rd division games have lived with soccer all their lives, are diehard supporters of their team and have paid a fair bit of money for their ticket. The Impact gave out thousands of free tickets for their home opener and I met several people on the way to the stadium who had free tickets and had never attended a soccer game before. Other than the Ultras section most of the other fans seemed to get more excited by the guys shooting t-shirts into the audience than the game itself. If you make a mistake in 3rd division you have thousands of fans screaming at you plus extensive media coverage of your error the next day while the many USL spectators don't even understand the rules of the game.

I like DeSantis as a coach. However, there is no doubt that the 3rd division has superior coaching. Many former first and second Bundesliga coaches are coaching at this level to work their way up the ladder again as well as many former first division coaches from other countries. Some teams have three or four coaches on their staff who are superior to the average USL head coach.

As far as transfer possibilities go there is no comparison at all. Upper level European teams are well aware of the level in the 3rd division and many will outright sign a player based on scouting reports and not even require a trial. The most a USL player can hope for is an agent who can get him a trial at some teams where he can hope to impress. If the USL is such a good place for exposure why is Williams trialing in the 3rd and not 1st division? Scouts from Bundesliga teams regularly attended 3rd division matches in Leipzig and I doubt there are very many European scouts attending USL matches. On those odd occasions that European teams do send scouts to N. America it is to MLS games which at least has some profile in Europe unlike the USL which has no profile or reputation.

If the USL is such a good place for exposure why is Williams trialing in the 3rd and not 1st division? YOU ASK?

THATS MY WHOLE POINT.......why is Chris Williams trying out for a German 3rd division team?

Im stating that he could do alot better. Least you forget, Some A-League/Usl first division players have made it to first flight European Soccer. Leagues much higher then the German third Division, which by the way for a League thats supposed to be as prominent as you state it is, there isnt much news on the net from it. From what I know its basically a reserve league for the big Bundasliga teams.

Id love to see figures that state that attendance goes from 1000 to 16000, and that your average player can bring in 80k a year.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

If the USL is such a good place for exposure why is Williams trialing in the 3rd and not 1st division? YOU ASK?

THATS MY WHOLE POINT.......why is Chris Williams trying out for a German 3rd division team?

Im stating that he could do alot better. Least you forget, Some A-League/Usl first division players have made it to first flight European Soccer. Leagues much higher then the German third Division, which by the way for a League thats supposed to be as prominent as you state it is, there isnt much news on the net from it. From what I know its basically a reserve league for the big Bundasliga teams.

Id love to see figures that state that attendance goes from 1000 to 16000, and that your average player can bring in 80k a year.

Attendances for this season. Note that the teams with (2) after them are amateur/reserve sides of existing Bundesliga teams and they do not attract home crowds of any respectable size.

3. Bundesliga 2004-2005

No.

Club

Average

Games

vs '04

Highest

1

FC St. Pauli 1910 Hamburg

16.196

15

-6,6%

19.248

2

Braunschweiger TSV Eintracht

12.860

15

20,9%

18.000

3

TSV Fortuna Düsseldorf

8.981

16

NEW

38.123

4

VfL Osnabrück 1899

8.780

15

-21,6%

14.000

5

Offenbacher FC Kickers 1901

6.229

14

36,8%

11.064

6

Sportfreunde Siegen 1899

5.581

14

91,6%

9.216

7

1. FC Union Berlin

4.917

15

-34,4%

8.749

8

VfB Lübeck

4.569

16

-39,5%

11.000

9

SV Darmstadt 1898

4.560

14

NEW

13.126

10

Wuppertaler SV

3.887

15

-41,8%

8.024

11

TuS Koblenz

3.787

12

NEW

10.025

12

Kieler SV Holstein 1900

3.737

15

4,6%

7.300

13

Krefelder FC Uerdingen 05

3.713

15

23,7%

16.780

14

SC Preussen 06 Münster

3.594

15

-4,5%

9.250

15

Chemnitzer FC

2.771

15

-15,3%

4.590

16

SV Stuttgarter Kickers

2.766

13

-8,0%

3.880

17

SC Paderborn 07

2.713

15

1,7%

4.817

18

VfR 1921 Aalen

2.272

13

26,0%

6.500

19

SSV Jahn 2000 Regensburg

2.221

14

-71,0%

3.500

20

FC 1907 Augsburg

2.195

13

-21,6%

3.500

21

Hertha BSC Berlin-2

2.081

14

NEW

21.000

22

TSG 1899 Hoffenheim

1.913

15

5,4%

4.000

23

VfL 1945 Wolfsburg-2

1.552

15

NEW

17.000

24

SV Wehen 1926 Taunusstein

1.473

13

23,2%

3.200

25

Hamburger SV-2

1.278

15

-2,8%

6.721

26

1. FC Köln-2

1.207

15

-3,2%

4.000

27

FC Nöttingen

1.123

14

NEW

2.013

28

SC Pfullendorf

1.007

13

3,0%

2.670

29

BV 09 Borussia Dortmund-2

937

16

-38,1%

2.410

30

DSC Arminia Bielefeld-2

806

15

NEW

2.363

31

SV Werder Bremen-2

743

15

-34,8%

3.362

32

VfB Stuttgart 1893-2

718

14

-18,6%

2.700

33

SpVgg. 1907 Elversberg

714

14

-50,6%

1.000

34

1. SC Feucht

708

13

-31,4%

1.800

35

1. FSV Mainz 05-2

642

14

-26,8%

2.300

36

FC Bayern München-2

456

15

-27,9%

1.400

37

TSV München 1860-2

436

12

NEW

800

.

Total

3.425

-2,7%

38.123

[ditty]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

If Chris Williams could do better than the German 3rd Division, I think he would do better. This is obviously the best European offer he has on the table. If he hasn't yet broken through to the starting 11 with Montreal that I don't think he is in much of a bargaining position.

I think the point of most of us German soccer observers is that whether or not you feel that the German Regionalliga is better or worse than the A-League, there is not doubting that it is a better better vehicle with which to get a foot in the door in Europe. Remember Julian de Guzman was an afterthought at 2nd Div. Saarbruecken when he got a couple of starts after they had already been relegated and Hannover picked him when they got promoted. You play well at a respectable level in Germany and doors will open.

I guess the choice possibly facing Williams might be to take a stab at Europe now or bide his time with the Impact. He should do the former.....now!

[Mr.Impact]

Yeah I guess your right....Chris should follow the steps of Maynol Conizales (sp?) or Victor Opong, or maybe Tam Nsaliwa oh wait he might be actually making $80k a year so that wont work.

I still believe that if this kid was willing to take a supporting role with the Impact, this would be a breakout year for him, considering the fact that Sandro Grande is hurt. He would have had some starting time with the Impact. i.e giving him some exposure he needs.

[ditty]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

Yeah I guess your right....Chris should follow the steps of Maynol Conizales (sp?) or Victor Opong, or maybe Tam Nsaliwa oh wait he might be actually making $80k a year so that wont work.

I still believe that if this kid was willing to take a supporting role with the Impact, this would be a breakout year for him, considering the fact that Sandro Grande is hurt. He would have had some starting time with the Impact. i.e giving him some exposure he needs.

Good points, Europe has not worked out well for every player who's taken a stab. Add Jason Bent and Dwayne DeRosario to that list.

However, do you think Canizales or Oppong would have much trouble playing in the A-LEague right now? And you mention Tam Nsaliwa? Are you suggesting he'd be better off in the A-League?

I just don't think Williams has anything to gain by waiting if he has the right situation to get a foot in the door in Europe, which the German 3rd division generally is. He can always come back to the A-League.

Incidentally. how many strictly A-Leaguers (i.e. no MNT exposure) have jumped directly into a European first division and stuck?