Gold Cup Roster?

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

I agree with you, but Canada's gotta put the best keeper in nets, no matter the team he plays on.

Which, given his lack of play, certainly can't be Lars.

[Jason]

I am not an expert on English football salaries, but I think I read somewhere that in the Premiership nobody makes less than 100,000 pounds per season. Two seasons at Tottenham would've earned Lars half a million Canadian.

Regarding Championship League clubs, we know that players who have played at that level for their careers have put themselves in a very favorable finiancial situation (Pesch, Brennan, DeVos). They may not be multi-millionaires, but they are probably comfortable in the knowledge that they won't have to work much once they retire. Even a backup keeper earning a minimal salary probably still pulls in at least 30,000 pounds a year (over C $75,000). I can't image that Sutton makes more than C $40,000.

Let me ask all of you this question: if you make $50,000 per year, and someone offered you $200,000 a year to do a similar but less challenging job, in a much nicer setting with better perks. Also, you would be working for a company that gives you a small chance to earn a promotion which would give you a whopping raise and the job experience of a lifetime. Or you could keep at your lower paying, less glamourous job which is more challenging, on the basis that it's a faster track to that big job and the resulting paychecks, even though you don't work for the bigger paying company and are thousands of miles away for their locations.

I don't know about all of you, but I'm taking the first job.

Jason

[Daniel]

Yeah, but Sutton looks like he has a better chance of catching on somewhere better as a starter than Lars. Word gets around, you know, and Lars has positioned himself as a lower-tier substitute.

[Robert]

If my memory serves me correctly, Lars got his opporutunity to play overseas shortly after Holger publicly stated that Lars deserved a chance to play in Europe. That in it self is a pretty thin portfio of credentials. Well, Lars' had his chance(s) and it appears to not have worked out for him. Right now he's making whatever amount of money he is, his profession is a keeper, but he's not a pro-keeper. If Lars had a soccercard (yeah, like a baseball card), his career stats would prove he is an A-League keeper. No national coach with options, would select any player who only sits on the bench. Sorry Lars, you had your chance. Stay in Europe. Make as much money as you can. But you'll never play in a Canadian World Cup qualifier again. My vote goes to Sutton.

[way2goeh]

I think Jason Jordan deserves a chance. In the last two whitecaps games, he has scored 7 goals. Come to think of it, has any canadian scored more than two goals in a game? As for goaltending, Sutton deserves it. Lars is history!!

[Gordon]

So lets see if I am getting this right...and feel free to correct me if I am wrong: Hirschfeld plays as a back-up at Championship level and above and that makes him a low tier sub, while Sutton starts in the A-League which makes him better than Hirschfeld? Lars has no career and should stay in Europe making good cash, while Sutton can play for peanuts and start every game for Canada? Never mind that Sutton has yet to win the number 1 in head to head with Lars(which given Yallop's selection strategies is not necessarily a ringing endorsement of Lars as a starter). I think this is getting a bit goofy now, personally. I have yet to see Hirschfeld F.U. the way the experienced every day starter at the highest level (Pat Onstad) did. Nor have I seen Sutton do so either.

I will agree that Yallop has a few Keepers to have a look at. Fernandes, Stamatopolous etc. etc. (and this is not meant as an exhaustive list). But this propensity to rule out Lars Hirschfeld because he is "not playing regularly" is tiresome. He hasn't played like crap with the national team, which is the only thing that should rule out selection.

[loyola]

I agree Gordon. Sutton hasn't won the #1 spot yet but at least people have stopped to call Lars "world class" on this board which was tiresome too.

BTW, I think that Stamatopoulos has been invited to the January camp so Yallop had a look at him. Mike Franks will be in the next camp for the B team which is a good news. Like I stated previously in this thread I would be curious to see if Wagenaar will get an invitation to some National team activities if he does well at the WYC (Mitchell and Yallop seems high on him). Fernandes would be a good call up too.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I agree Gordon. Sutton hasn't won the #1 spot yet but at least people have stopped to call Lars "world class" on this board which was tiresome too.

BTW, I think that Stamatopoulos has been invited to the January camp so Yallop had a look at him. Mike Franks will be in the next camp for the B team which is a good news. Like I stated previously in this thread I would be curious to see if Wagenaar will get an invitation to some National team activities if he does well at the WYC (Mitchell and Yallop seems high on him). Fernandes would be a good call up too.

This really shows where soccer development in Canada comes to a drastic halt. Looking at the two previous U20 goalies before Josh Wagenaar will illustrate that clearly.

At the last WYC Alim Karim started in goal for Canada. In qualifying he had earned two shut-outs against El Salvador and Haiti, both 1-0 victories, and followed that up with a huge 3-2 victory over the USA. At the final tournament, we lost 0-2 to Brazil, 1-2 to Australia, before qualifying for the final sixteen with a 1-0 shut-out over the Czech Rep. Another 1-0 shut-out led to that infamous quarterfinal heartbreaker, the 2-1 overtime loss to eventual runners-up Spain.

In the U20 campaign before that, Pieter Mueleman had won the starting job. In qualifying he earned three shut-outs against Honduras 1-0, Mexico 1-0 and Jamaica 0-0. At the Finals, Canada failed to score a single goal and bowed out of the tournament following three successive losses, 0-3 to Iraq, 0-4 to Germany and 0-2 to Brazil.

Have either of these two goalies figured in the Senior Men's National team's plans? Therefore, unless Josh stands on his head in Holland, and given his Dutch ancestory he might just do so, don't expect to see him line-up for Canada in 2008 (Jeez, that's a long way's off, isn't Kevan?) when our next WC qualifying starts.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

If my memory serves me correctly, Lars got his opporutunity to play overseas shortly after Holger publicly stated that Lars deserved a chance to play in Europe. That in it self is a pretty thin portfio of credentials. Well, Lars' had his chance(s) and it appears to not have worked out for him. Right now he's making whatever amount of money he is, his profession is a keeper, but he's not a pro-keeper. If Lars had a soccercard (yeah, like a baseball card), his career stats would prove he is an A-League keeper. No national coach with options, would select any player who only sits on the bench. Sorry Lars, you had your chance. Stay in Europe. Make as much money as you can. But you'll never play in a Canadian World Cup qualifier again. My vote goes to Sutton.

You obviously have no clue as to how Lars got over to Europe. It had SFA to do with Holger Osieck and his endorsement was not a factor.

[loyola]

Lars went to Europe with Cottbus (sp?) youth teams I think and came back to Canada to play in the PDL and the A-League. After his good showing in the 2002 GC in got a contract with Totenham.

Am I right? Or Ed can correct me if he want!

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

This really shows where soccer development in Canada comes to a drastic halt. Looking at the two previous U20 goalies before Josh Wagenaar will illustrate that clearly.

At the last WYC Alim Karim started in goal for Canada. In qualifying he had earned two shut-outs against El Salvador and Haiti, both 1-0 victories, and followed that up with a huge 3-2 victory over the USA. At the final tournament, we lost 0-2 to Brazil, 1-2 to Australia, before qualifying for the final sixteen with a 1-0 shut-out over the Czech Rep. Another 1-0 shut-out led to that infamous quarterfinal heartbreaker, the 2-1 overtime loss to eventual runners-up Spain.

In the U20 campaign before that, Pieter Mueleman had won the starting job. In qualifying he earned three shut-outs against Honduras 1-0, Mexico 1-0 and Jamaica 0-0. At the Finals, Canada failed to score a single goal and bowed out of the tournament following three successive losses, 0-3 to Iraq, 0-4 to Germany and 0-2 to Brazil.

Have either of these two goalies figured in the Senior Men's National team's plans? Therefore, unless Josh stands on his head in Holland, and given his Dutch ancestory he might just do so, don't expect to see him line-up for Canada in 2008 (Jeez, that's a long way's off, isn't Kevan?) when our next WC qualifying starts.

I remeber Mieuleman pretty well and was never MNT material, he just wasn't good enough.

Karim is a different story, I think he showed some interesting skills and could devellop into a very good keeper. He's senior this year so we'll see if he's good enough to have some attention from the MLS scouts.

The thing with Wagenaar is that Mitchell and Yallop have both spoken highly about him and Bergovic. We'll see in a month.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I remeber Mieuleman pretty well and was never MNT material, he just wasn't good enough.

Karim is a different story, I think he showed some interesting skills and could devellop into a very good keeper. He's senior this year so we'll see if he's good enough to have some attention from the MLS scouts.

The thing with Wagenaar is that Mitchell and Yallop have both spoken highly about him and Bergovic. We'll see in a month.

If Josh is successful in Holland, and by that I mean helping Canada to at Quaterfinal or better showing. Should he then not be rewarded with a spot of Frank's Gold Cup roster? Why not keep the momemtum going, because if he does do well in Holland he might be staying in Europe for a while come August.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by FC Beast

Sutton is not up to international level of football, he's an a league

keeper and just that, if Canada wan't to do well at this tournament

that they have to go with Lars in the nets.

Hey Beast. You don't figure the Impact would be competitive against the likes of Gillingham, Portsmouth or Luton Town? Cause those are the only teams Lars gets to play for.

[fza]

When`s the roster for the GOld cup going to announced??

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by fza

When`s the roster for the GOld cup going to announced??

The CONCACAF site does not have the possibly revised regulations for the upcoming Gold Cup on its site yet (still has the 2000 regs, which were in force up to now!), but in the past it's been 15 days before the start of the competition for the final list (18, perhaps expanded up to 22) with the allowed reserve (7 currently)list. That'll probably be about June 23 or so when it has to be filed with CONCACAF, and we'll probably have it announced a day or two after that by the CONCACAF site.

Probably there will be a preparation/selection camp for mid-June announced a few days before with 25-30 on the list, with perhaps some of the WYC team coming later (the current regs say that the 25 man initial list has to be filed 60 days before, which means thay have already been filed if this regs are still in force). Most of the players (and their clubs) on that probable initial list have probably been informed, as per Lenarduzzi's comments about the three 86ers, but we'll only probably find out in dribs and drabs who they are until just before.

See the current roster regulations available on pdf from the CONCACAF site (but there is a comment on the html button that the regs are being revised). Note the first laughable and unenforceable part about making the best selection from available players possible and the part about not making comments about "inferior" selections[]:

http://www.concacaf.com/graphics/stats-regs/pdf/goldcup_e.pdf

at pages 11 and 12.

[beachesl]

For those interested, here is the 2003 Gold Cup Roster for Canada, followed by the roster for its only real preparation friendly, the June 1/2003 friendly against Germany in Wolfsburg. The GC roster was announced by Osieck on July 2, 5 days after the final list had to be filed. At the end is the the initial 25 man roster filed in early May but not released by CONCACAF until July 1.

Klukowsi (an Osieck favourite) was not in the Germany match, as his club was busy in the Belgian Cup at the time. De Vos and Hirschfeld were recovering from minor injuries. Some of the others not in Germany were involved in club matches.

Canadian Roster For Gold Cup 2003, announced July 2 on CSA site

Name Position Club D.O.B. Caps Goals/Shutouts

Pat Onstad GK San Jose Earthquakes, MLS 1/13/68 37 15

Maycoll Canizalez M Werder Bremen, Bundesliga 12/28/82 3 1

Richard Hastings D/M Graz AK, Austrian First Division 5/18/77 31 1

Paul Fenwick D Hibernian, Scottish Premier 8/25/69 29 0

Jason deVos D Wigan Athletic, English First Division 1/2/74 39 3

Jason Bent M Plymouth Argyle, English Second Div. 3/8/77 29 0

Paul Stalteri M Werder Bremen, German Bundesliga 10/18/77 42 4

Daniel Imhof M St. Gallen, Swiss First Division 11/22/77 16 0

Carlo Corazzin F Vancouver Whitecaps, A-League 12/25/71 55 10

Kevin McKenna D/F Heart of Midlothian, Scottish Premier 1/21/80 16 6

Martin Nash M Montreal Impact, A-League 12/27/75 25 2

Nick Dasovic D/M Vancouver Whitecaps, A-League 12/5/68 58 2

Davide Xausa M/F Livingston, Scottish Premier 3/10/76 32 2

Mike Klukowski M La Louviere, Belgium 5/27/81 1 0

Nevio Pizzolitto D Montreal Impact, A-League 8/26/76 6 0

Chris Pozniak D/M Orebro, Swedish Premier 1/10/81 7 0

Iain Hume M/F Tranmere Rovers, English Second Div. 10/20/83 1 0

Lars Hirschfeld GK Tottenham Hotspur, English Premier 10/17/78 11 3

June 1, 2003 – International Friendly

Volkswagen Arena – Wolfsburg, Germany

Canada 1 (1)

Germany 4 (1)

Goals: Canada -10-Kevin McKenna (20); Germany - 5-Carsten Ramelow (41), 16-Paul Freier (53), 9-Fredi Bobic (61), 3-Tobias Rau (90+)

Canada: 1-Pat Onstad; 2-Tam Nsaliwa (13-Carl Fletcher, 81); 3-Richard Hastings; 4-Paul Fenwick; 5-Nevio Pizzolitto; 6-Nick Dasovic; 7-Paul Stalteri; 8-Daniel Imhof; 9-Martin Nash (14-Maycoll Canizalez, 76); 10-Kevin McKenna; 11-Julian de Guzman;

Subs not used: 12-Tony Menezes; 15-Niki Budalic; 16-Jason Jordan; 17-Ante Jazic; 22-Kenny Stamatopoulos; Head Coach: Holger Osieck

Germany: 1-Frank Rost (12-Hans Butt, 45); 2-Arne Friedrich; 3-Tobias Rau; 4-Christian Worns; 5-Carsten Ramelow (16-Paul Freier, 45); 6-Frank Baumann (15-Marko Rehmer, 58); 7-Torsten Frings; 8-Sebastian Kehl; 9-Fredi Bobic (18-Kevin Kuranyi, 68); 10-Bernd Schneider (13-Michael Hartmann, 74); 11-Benjamin Lauth (17-Oliver Neuville, 45); Subs not used - 13-Michael Hartmann; Head Coach: Rudi Voller

"Preliminary 25 Man GC Roster (Canada)

http://www.concacaf.com/news/article.page/1507

announced July 1/2003

GK: Lars Hirschfeld (Tottenham Hotspur/ENG), Pat Onstad (San Jose Earthquakes/USA), Kenny Stamatopoulous (no club);

DF: Nick Dasovic (Vancouver Whitecaps), Jason DeVos (Wigan Athletic FC/ENG), Paul Fenwick (Hibernian FC/SCO), Carl Fletcher (Atlanta Silverbacks/USA D2), Kevin McKenna (Hearts of Midiothian/SCO), Nevio Pizzolitto (L’Impact de Montréal), Chris Pozniak (Orebro/SWE), Mark Rodgers (Wycombe/ENG);

MD: Jason Bent (Plymouth Argyle FC/ENG), Maycoll Canizalez (SV Werder Bremen/GER), Richard Hasting (Graz AK/AUT), Iain Hume (Tranmere Rovers FC/ENG), Atiba Hutchinson (Osters IF/SWE), Daniel Imhof (FC St-Gallen/SUI), Ante Jazic (SK Rapid Wien/AUT), Mike Klukowski (RAA La Louviere/BEL), Martin Nash (L’Impact de Montréal), Tam Nsaliwa (FC Saarbrucken/GER D2), Paul Stalteri (SV Werder Bremen/GER), Davide Xausa (Livingston FC/SCO);

AT: Carlos Corazzin (no club), Robert Friend (Moss FK/NOR).

TD: Holger OSIECK"

The 25 man list could not have been added to or changed after early May, 2003. Only 4 changes to the final list of 18, from the 7 reserves, could have been made for the competition, and then only on justifiable and documented cause.

What is interesting to realize now is that de Guzman, although he was called on the marquee for the Germany match, was never intended to be played at the Gold Cup all along, as there was probably a long-term deal between Osieck and Hannover (who wanted him for the training camp) not to use him at the GC for whatever favour. Also, it explains some of Osieck's apparent rationale for his unusual substitution action/non-action for the Germany match...he never intended to use or look at Tony Menezes, Jason Jordan, and Niki Budalic (probably just brought for unexpected cover) at all. It would be interesting to know (doubtful IMO) whether the players were ever told who were on the preliminary list of 25.

It would be interesting to compare Yallop's strategy with 2003.

[beachesl]

So, assuming the old GC regs are still in force, here is my wild guess at Yallop's Preliminary List of 25 (stab at final 18 in green) that the CSA would have had to file by May 11, 2005:

GK: Sutton, Hirschfeld, Mike Franks (no room for anyone else, but possibly Wagenaar))

Def: McKenna, Hutchinson, Klukowski, Imhoff, Nsaliwa, Reda, Pozniak, Jasic, Geordie Lyall

(no De Vos, Yallop taking him at his word)

(possibly Hainault or Gervais)

MF: Peters, Hume, Julian de Guzman, Stalteri, Brennan, Simpson, Gyaki, Bernier

(question: assuming Stalteri, de Guzman and Hume are on the list, will they want to miss their fight in the training clubs for their new clubs?)

(possibilities: de Jong, Grande, Serioux)

FW: De Rosario, Occean, Jordan , Brillant,

(no Radzinski, he's not interested)

(possibility: Will Johnson, Ali Ngon/Gerber altho he wasn't such a hot commodity 2 weeks ago when the list was made)

How's this for a probable staring line-up?

------------Sutton

Hutchinson , Reda, Klukowski, McKenna

------------Stalteri

Hume---------De Guzman---------- Jim Brennan

----- Occean ---------De Rosario

I would prefer to start Hume at the front, but I don't think Frank will do that. Frank may also start Peters, Simpson (instead of Brennan) and Imhoff (instead of McKenna), but it's too soon to say.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by way2goeh

I think Jason Jordan deserves a chance. In the last two whitecaps games, he has scored 7 goals. Come to think of it, has any canadian scored more than two goals in a game? As for goaltending, Sutton deserves it. Lars is history!!

Corazin scored four in a second division match back in 2001 http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=294

Two years ago, Pesch scored a hat-trick for Sheffield United against Gillingham.

I also recall Pesch bagging four in a match many years ago. I don't even remember which club he was with at the time.

db

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Corazin scored four in a second division match back in 2001 http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=294

Two years ago, Pesch scored a hat-trick for Sheffield United against Gillingham.

I also recall Pesch bagging four in a match many years ago. I don't even remember which club he was with at the time.

db

Kusch scored five goals in a 2nd-tier Norwegian league game with Myällby against Enkoping in 2000.

[Grizzly]

Jazic still seems to be injured as he has not played yet this season. Incidentally Kuban had been disappointing lately despite being the favourite to promote and hiring a star coach. They are currently in 10th place in the 22 team Russian 2nd tier, 7 points behind the leader although it is still early in the season. In the current situation one would think Jazic would be back in the lineup quickly once he is healthy.

Speaking of injuries we also shouldn't forget that both DeGuzman and Stalteri suffered injuries at the end of the Bundesliga season.

[Daniel]

As per an interview with him in a Belgian magazine, Kluka will skip the GC to prepare with Bruges. Too bad, because it was important to see him with the "new" Canadian backline.

[Joe Keeper]

I understand that Yallop wants Stalteri, Deguzman and now Klukouski to do well with their new clubs, but to be honest it is hurting the GC team a bit.

After World Cup qualifying, the GC is probably our biggest event. We should be aiming to bring our best team to go as far as we can. Beyond this , all we have for two years really is friendlies...

[kelownaguy]

Joe, I'm sure Frank and the rest of us would love to have those 3 on board as 2 of them are our better players and many of us want to see Klukowski audition for a starting spot in the backline... But in the end it all comes down to the player, and you can't fault them for looking after themselves and their club career first instead of a meaningless Concacaf tournament (in their minds) This tourney probably means a heck of a lot more to us the fans then it does to our national players with big contracts in Europe..

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by kelownaguy

Joe, I'm sure Frank and the rest of us would love to have those 3 on board as 2 of them are our better players and many of us want to see Klukowski audition for a starting spot in the backline... But in the end it all comes down to the player, and you can't fault them for looking after themselves and their club career first instead of a meaningless Concacaf tournament (in their minds) This tourney probably means a heck of a lot more to us the fans then it does to our national players with big contracts in Europe..

That is all fine and dandy. But I ask what is the point in our players going to Europe to get better and then when they do, they can't play for their country. I believe the Gold Cup is the most important Cup in this side of the Atlantic.

[beachesl]

Revised very speculative line-up (given we don't know who is on the secret list of 25), given rumours and reports:

----Sutton (with Wagenaar starting Cuba match if we are out of next round)

Nsaliwa--Reda--Hainault--Imhoff

--------Hutchinson (or Pozniak if Hutch is still playing in Sweden league)

Hume(or Peters)-Gyaki--De Jong(or Brennan/Simpson if not busy with clubs)

Occean (or Hume/Jordan for first match)--Ngon/Gerba

To me, this Gold Cup tournament is about early, very very early, player and team development for the next WCQ. After all, "It's all about the World Cup, stupid!" Victories, even if sweet, are only a bonus. The serious forming of an actual WCQ team will not start until the 2007 Gold Cup, which I will be really interested in.

For that reason, I am happy to see a "B minus" squad, something even less powerful than our squad against Millwall and Hearts last summer, as long as there is some rational development strategy behind it.