CP Reporting York U. Out Of Stadium Project

[Massive Attack]

If the GTA is going to see any WYC action in 2007, its going to be at the SkyDome, or at Ivor Wynne. Centennial, Lamport and Birchmount are either too decrepid to upgrade in time, or there isn't enough space to do so. All 3 of those stadiums are at crappy locations also. Where Exhibition Stadium once stood there is now a highly lucrative parking lot (I've heard that it makes $1 mil a year in revenue).

The thing that's going to suck will be when the U of T and York both spend millions to build their own small soccer/football stadiums.

Overall this is a sad day for soccer fans in the GTA.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The Fieldturf at the Dome is a tray system.

Both teams have their own sets of trays.

That's not my understanding. Where did you learn this?

The surface the Argonauts used last year was "Transition Turf" by "General Sports Turf", an artificial grass system that was rolled onto the concrete stadium floor.

To the best of my knowledge, the Argos have not purchased any FieldTurf. Media reports have stated that the Jays have opened the door for the Argos to use their field.

[Daniel]

I may have erred. I know the Jays bought the Expos's turf, but what about the Big O football turf? Still in Montreal?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

I may have erred. I know the Jays bought the Expos's turf, but what about the Big O football turf? Still in Montreal?

The BC Lions bought the football turf.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

The BC Lions bought the football turf.

To clarify, the Lions bought the Big O's turf. There was only one surface, not two.

The Skydome's turf is new.

db

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by nedved9

Only in Toronto does politics, and shere stupidity gets in the way

of something. this is the same city that cannot figure out how to fix the waterfront over there. So this stadium collapse doesnt surprise me.

You really cannot blame the C.S.A. ONLY. I think it is a little a bit of everyone. I will be honest with you if this was any other city

like, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Montreal. I think the ground will have dug up by now.

We'd be even more further along than that.

[matthew]

Okay the CSA has proven they can f**k-up a one-car parade, but I feel for them a little here. They have secured $35M from two levels of government to spend on a soccer stadium. It’s a one-time deal. Here Toronto, we got the 07 bid, you need a stadium. We have $35M, let’s do something. And so far three partners (and possibly more, who knows who else turned them down and never got on board and backed out) backed away from it.

Towns in the US are throwing bond money at MLS teams to build lavish complexes with extra youth soccer facilities, hotels, convention centres, tennis courts, all sorts of crap.

What the **** is wrong with York and the U of T? My alma mater, the mighty University of Regina just dropped $15M to build themselves a $32M ‘Fitness and Lifestyle Centre: a nice gym, a huge centre of for the Kinesiology faculty, a pool and a small stadium for the Rams football team. York can’t put together more than $15M and land? York has just under 50,000 students. Regina has 12,615.

And Maple Leafs Sports Entertainment? Were these guys serious? Because if they are they should come in on a white horse and save the day. If they don’t want a SSS (and the more this thing fell apart, the more I think they could dictate terms) for cheap, they want one for free, how long were they going to tough this out. MLS is coming along, but it’s a serious long term investment and if you can’t come up with $20M plus overruns, I don’t know how serious they were in the first place.

Look at the deal they were getting (and now for a brief history of MLS SSS):

Columbus Crew Stadium is a modest 22,500 seat stadium which cost US$28.5M in 1998 and opened in ’99. It took nine months to build. NINE MONTHS.

For FC Dallas we have Frisco which is 20,000 seats and 17 youth fields. The complex costs US$65M and construction began in 2003. Collin County and Frisco each chipped in $20M. The Firsco Independent School District (I’m assuming for their use as high school football/soccer fields) are in for $15M and $10M is from the Hunt Sports Group which is also on the hook for cost overuns. They have a $2M, 20-year deal with the city on rent and get all concessions, but pay for all operating and maintenance expenses.

Bridgeview (in Chicago) is a 20-25,000 seat stadium that they just broke ground on. AEG (Anschultz Entertainment Group) is putting in US$15M. Bridgieview (the town) US$15M and there’s US$40M more in bonds. Bridgeview would own the stadium.

Harrison, the 25,000 seat MetroStars facility is supposed to cost US$100M. They’re breaking ground in the fall and will be done by 2006. AEG is in for US$30M and Hudson County was going to sell US$130M in bonds.

Denver has announced plans for US$130M complex. Kroenke Sports Enterprises (KSE) will make a capital contribution of US$20M for the construction of the soccer stadium. The city will issue $64 million in bonds. An additional $43 million in Urban Renewal Development Bonds will be issued. I know it adds up to $127M, but this deal is early and there’s a whole bunch of hoo-haw about contruction and building roads . . .

So to sum up: Columbus (US$28.5M in 98 dollars); Dallas (US$10M); Chicago (US$15M); Metros (US$30M) and Colorado (US$20M).

If Toronto was interested surely someone could come up with Cdn$20M plus potential cost over-runs. That's approx. US$16M, which is more than Chicago and Dallas, but less everywhere else. But they also planned to build in a decent location compared to Frisco, Tex. Bridgeview, Ill, Harrison, NJ, Commerce City, Colo and Carson, Ca. Admittedly some are cloer to others to humanity in their respective cases, but the York complex wasn’t that far away if you compare what other MLS stadia are doing.

All that being said, Pipe’s “We have no plan B. The stadium will be built.” should be the epitaph of his career. Blind narrow minded focus as all falls around him.

And can we drop the ‘national stadium’ myth. There were never going to be many national team games on FieldTurf with football lines, I don’t care where you stick the stadium . . . Especially with Montreal building a moderately sized stadium with grass and Vancouver builds something along the 20k deal Kerfoot wants. Vancouver was getting a whack of games if they ever get that puppy built and Montreal was going to get more than Toronto and Edmonton would still get a lot of the big matches.

You don’t like Vancouver getting the Honduras match get used to it. I think that was the way things were going before the Toronto stadium deal drank the kool-aid.

How many games has Ottawa gotten with their FieldTurf? Two women’s friendlies and the Francophone Games? And Frank Clair is nicer than what Toronto had on the drawing board. All Toronto had going for it was the centre of the universe argument.

Frankly if no one wants to pony up the money for even a modest stadium in the GTA my sympathy is wearing thin. I feel bad for the good supporters I know from out there, but no one in the city really seems to want the stadium or have the wherewithal to get it done. Maybe the CSA are so incompetent that they’ve scared away every possible investor, but to me this was such a good deal I can’t believe someone didn’t jump on it.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, I just can’t believe Toronto and the CSA could conspire to make no use of $35M in government cash to build a stadium and may blow our chance to host the U20s and put the men’s game back on the map in this country.

Man I'm pissed off.

cheers,

matthew

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

What the **** is wrong with York and the U of T? My alma mater, the mighty University of Regina just dropped $15M to build themselves a $32M ‘Fitness and Lifestyle Centre: a nice gym, a huge centre of for the Kinesiology faculty, a pool and a small stadium for the Rams football team.

U of T have finally dropped the delusions of grandeur and are planning to do the same as U of R, which is what I always thought they should do. That is, build facilities that serve students first and foremost: a small stadium with an artificial surface (as I mentioned earlier in this thread) and covering bubble plus other athletic facilities, all of which can be used all year long for inter-university and intramural sports. The plan is still in the early stages, but I think its chance of success is much better than a huge 20,000-seat stadium that is useless for students. I don't know the specifics of York's situation, but there was something about a similar plan involving a small stadium mentioned in one of the articles.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

U of T have finally dropped the delusions of grandeur and are planning to do the same as U of R, which is what I always thought they should do. That is, build facilities that serve students first and foremost: a small stadium with an artificial surface (as I mentioned earlier in this thread) and covering bubble plus other athletic facilities, all of which can be used all year long for inter-university and intramural sports. The plan is still in the early stages, but I think its chance of success is much better than a huge 20,000-seat stadium that is useless for students. I don't know the specifics of York's situation, but there was something about a similar plan involving a small stadium mentioned in one of the articles.

I'd be surprised if the U of T builds anything within the next 5 years. Their proposed project (football stadium, new hockey rink, athletic centre, shops) is projected to cost around $70mil. The school will have to raise these funds all on its own. I don't think this will happen anytime soon.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I'd be surprised if the U of T builds anything within the next 5 years. Their proposed project (football stadium, new hockey rink, athletic centre, shops) is projected to cost around $70mil. The school will have to raise these funds all on its own. I don't think this will happen anytime soon.

$70 million? Boy, that number seems strangely familiar...........

[Massive Attack]

Sorry, I got the numbers wrong. Their proposal is for $60-65 mil. It did make the NIMBYers happy.

http://www.thevoyageurs.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6592

[Gian-Luca]

Well as long as the NIMBY's are happy. That makes it all worthwhile. I wonder how many of them were part of the "Bread not Circuses" organization that helped sinked the original Olympic bid in Toronto for 1996, which helped us to get neither bread nor circuses for the city.

Its at times like this when I feel like forming a "Circuses Not Bread" organization.

[G-Man]

time to relax. the skydome will do. make them import a grass feild everytime there is a game of importance.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

So to sum up: Columbus (US$28.5M in 98 dollars); Dallas (US$10M); Chicago (US$15M); Metros (US$30M) and Colorado (US$20M).

Crew Stadium was basically built as a bare bones facility. It's been only recently that they've added on to the facility. It's certainly not the standard that was set by the HDC.

Dallas should've had their stadium already built and used in McKinnley (someone who knows the exact anme correct me) but the council there decided to spend the money on youth fields alone. No doubt the reason that Frisco got built because Hunt was willing to front some of the cash.

Harrison has probley been the sorry story of stadiums in MLS. This stadium should've been done a long time ago as well but has been held up the saga known as New Jersey politics. The state house is still to vote on the proposal.

The Utah State assembly voted against allowing use up public funds to build facilities like what Real Salt Lake want for an SSS. The bright side is that the vote only extends for a year and there would be another vote on the matter.

Already we have complaints about the deal San Antonio gave in regards to the Alamodome.

[matthew]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Crew Stadium was basically built as a bare bones facility. It's been only recently that they've added on to the facility. It's certainly not the standard that was set by the HDC.

No doubt, but we should be able to errect a Crew stadium with the funds we have and should be able to get it built in under a year. Columbus was up against a deadline with OSU rebuilding the horseshoe one summer, meaning they'd be homeless. Some council (I can't remember which suburb it was) voted against having CCS in their town and so the Crew had to find a plan B quick. That's why it was done in 9 mos. They didn't have a choice.

That all sounds kind of familiar. If they could bash out a 25,000 seat stadium with bleacher seating in less than 12 mos, that's surely much better than the alternative and if someone (MLSE or the Argos or whoever) decide they want to move in and add a flashy scoreboad or real seats in the main stand or add a roof to parts or whatever, at least the physical steel and concrete is there surrounding something approaching a soccer field.

Moose Jaw has a sod farm in the middle of nowhere with some loose gravel around it and some fencing. In 85 days it will be a 2,000-seat grass soccer field and another 1,000-seat grass field, with parking for the Canada Games. I just can't wrap my head around how there's $35M sitting there and no one can put together something in Toronto that will resemble a half-decent soccer field in just over two years. Hopefully Hamilton will come through.

cheers,

matthew

[Winnipeg Fury]

Mind boggling indeed. The smartest thing they could do is take the money and build somewhere other than TO.

With that kind of money, they could build a firstclass staduim with no BS.

[François]

A story from Radio-Canada says that Montreal could replace Toronto and could host the 1/2 final. Sherbrooke is in the running again and the CSA could consider to use the skydome.

Here is the link,it's in french:

http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/soccer/nouvelles/200505/13/002-soccer-montreal.shtml

[argh1]

Although I promised myself no more "stadium" posts....I can't help myself.

CSA take whatever money you can get out this fiasco and bank it, collect some interest and maybe hire some Hockey Canada folk as consultants to show you how a national sports body functions.(oops did I say that)Throw your support towards grass roots soccer and continue to grow the game from the bottom up. Because one off events are just that one time no matter how big they are,I've never bought into the one event will grow a sport long term.

Market the begeezus out this event and use Rogers Centre with the roof open. Rogers has proven with the Argos that they are willing to work with tennants. Imagine the number of times Rogers brand name will be seen and heard during this event. Gawd Rogers Centre ain't some hole that no-one wants to play in it's just freaking huge. So CSA instead of waiting for someone else to bail you out or build you your dream SSS stadium go to work on selling tickets to the Dome. Rogers appears to want to work with others to use the stadium.That Belgium or Dutch or whatever European beer company's gone.Go have a chat with Uncle Ted. You just never know what might happen.

EDIT: Yeah, yeah another edit but whatever.

It doesn't take much of a marketing genius to figure out that most sports fans follow more than one sport. So why not work with Rogers, the Jays and the Argos to sell tickets to the U20 as add ons to their ticket base. After all the Jays average over 23,000(which ain't bad considering the League averages just over 27,000) and the Argos 25,000. You ain't gonna get them all but c'mon how much would it cost even the Jays to sell a 16 game flex pack and throw in a U20 game, it may even help the Jays to sell a few extra tickets. Make a deal with the Lynx maybe they may sell more tickets for themselves if you can get a ticket on the cheap for a U20. I dunno but don't wait 'till 2007 to start pushin'

It makes me sick, has nobody involved with soccer in this country ever taken your basic night school maketing and sales course (well there are exceptions)don't value added sales ring a bell with anyone in the CSA or do the soccer people actually want to live in a vacuum.

You've got Canadian nationalisim to sell, you can focus on ethnic groups in a multi-cultural city, you've got a wonderfull product.

So the stadium thing didn't work-out, show some initiative and show the world or at least Canada that soccer can indeed sell in the largest city in the land. Don't be afraid of what is Rogers Centre a 50-60,000 seater, go to work and sell some tickets. What's the worse that can happen 1,500 will show up for Lynx game or 150 for a Supra game if you only sell 25,000 tickets and the stadium looks empty on TV,what have you lost....nuthin'. No-one will care 6 months later, but you may be lucky enough to get 40,000 and then it'll be all good. Quit dickin' around make the deal with Rogers, give them the schedule now so other tennants can adjust.Be pro-active don't let another venue take the gov't dough, don't wait for another city to push in.Don't take the defeatist attitude go sell the damn game in Toronto instead of hoping for a white knight.

Okay now I promise never to utter the words soccer, stadium and Toronto in the same breath.

[Jarrek]

Moscoe questions need for York U subway

Cites stadium cancellation, lack of high-density housing

Area a commuter hub for York Region, university counters

The rationale for extending the Spadina subway line to York University is "evaporating" because of the university's actions, says Toronto Transit Commission chairman Howard Moscoe.

But a university spokesman says the university is addressing Moscoe's concerns.

Only five months ago, the TTC declared that building a subway to the university was the top priority for the system.

Now, Moscoe is questioning the call, although he says he's doing so in his role as a city councillor — not as head of the TTC.

In a letter to York president Lorna Marsden, Moscoe notes the university's decision this week to cancel plans for a soccer stadium on the campus.

He goes on to criticize York's sale of lands on the south side of the campus for low-density housing.

Transit is best in areas with high-density development, writes Moscoe (Ward 15, Eglinton-Lawrence). But on the south side of the campus, "I note ... low-rise residential (housing) is now being constructed on almost all of these lands."

"It would seem to me that one of the major justifications for spending billions of dollars on a subway is evaporating, and that the root causes of this are business decisions that have been made by the university itself."

Moscoe said in an interview he still supports the subway, but wants York to justify its actions.

Ted Spence, senior policy adviser to Marsden, said the university was surprised by Moscoe's letter.

An environmental assessment of the proposed subway extension is under way, and the university is working closely with it, along with TTC officials, he said.

The now-cancelled stadium was never a factor in justifying a new subway, Spence said.

The university has earmarked property for high-density development close to two proposed stations for the new subway line, Spence said.

He also said that York University is not the sole reason for the subway extension. The area is a commuter hub where people from York Region catch buses to the Downsview subway station, Spence said.

"This should be described as a subway to York Region, not a subway to York University," he said.

York has lobbied hard for a new subway, but the issue has provoked some bitter exchanges between Moscoe and Marsden.

The two clashed last fall over a TTC plan to build a $40 million bus-only route to provide express service to York from the Downsview subway station.

The TTC wanted the busway to extend into the campus. University officials complained that the route would cut the campus in half and create too much noise. Moscoe snapped they "ought to be ashamed of themselves" for refusing access. The busway is now proceeding.

[Bxl Boy]

There are only three (three, I repeat, 3) teams of high level in Canada and soccer responsibles are unable to make the conditions to give each three a decent stadium

Sorry, but that's deep incompetence

And if there's no stadium in Toronto, where will the $35M go ?

They received 35 millions, like that, present, cadeau, thank you ! And they "refuse" it by wasting the possibility of using it correctly. I'm so disgusted by that people.

I'm from Montreal, so I would love to see a semi-final here and matches in Sherbrooke. But I know it would be better for canadian soccer if Toronto gets a new stadium and if a decent team in installed there.

If it doesn't happen, all responsibles of that missed the biggest chance ever (and maybe the last before tenths of years) to help soccer here.

They should all resign immediaely after 2007, even if they speak about a huge success...

[Metro]

Hmm...I knew Howard Moscoe was a soccer fan.

[Gian-Luca]

Its because of the hope that the stadium would bring a subway stop that a part of me never believed York would pull out of the stadium project, so I'm not surprised to see that article re: Moscoe.

[coppercanuck]

Bravo to Saputo for building the game. Shame on the Lynx, Hartrel's, OSA, CPSL, York, U of T, etc, etc... for their short sightedness on this stadium plan. The CSA should give their money to a plan that is going to happen. Soccer in Toronto will always be minor league. The Lynx have been operating for what, 10 years? And they have built nothing. Not even a blip on the media's radar. The only option left for any activity in TO is to get together. The Lynx, OSA and the CPSL's GTA teams and get the stadium done for yourselves. '>Take the OSA Soccer Centre. A FieldTurf pitch with lots of space around it for some stands. Do it one stand at a time. Not 30,000 steats all at once. Over the last 8 seasons the Lynx have averaged 2,285, with 4 seasons over 2,500 and a max in 2001 of 2,795. Build a stand with a capcity of 3,000. When you fill it for 2 seasons, add a stand to the end. When you fill that maybe then you'll be ready for a 'big-boy' stadium.

Please Toronto, prove me wrong!

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Shame on the Lynx, Hartrel's, OSA, CPSL, York, U of T, etc, etc... for their short sightedness on this stadium plan.

This argument is the complete opposite of "it's all the CSA's fault" and I think it's just as silly. None of those organizations need a stadium with 20,000+ seats, so why should they be blamed? Only the Argos, CSA and potential MLS owners (MLSE?) could use such a stadium. The Argos found one that suited them (sure, they didn't go about it in a very nice way, but they looked after their own interests without breaking any laws and that's the way business works). Now it's up to the CSA and potential MLS owners to find one — it's ironic that neither can or are willing to put their own money into it, yet everyone else gets blamed.

[Massive Attack]

The Ontario Soccer Centre is not a viable location for a 20,000 seat stadium. The location could barely handle the 500 or so people who attended the Canada-Scotland U-16 games. As far as space for expansion, to bulid stands and to create more parking would involve cutting down part of the forest to the east, and loosing the 4 or so extra pitches. Plus, Hwy 7 and Martingrove Rd. are hardly easily accessable by public transit, unless you like waiting 1/2 an hour for busses.