What would mean "success" in Canadian pro soccer?

[b7germany]

First of all, before creating a solely Canadian 1st tier professional league, you need a domestic cup competition i.e. US Open Cup, FA cup, etc. There are enough teams with USL 1st, PDL, CPSL, PCSL and other amateur teams to form an Open Cup.

For God's sake, even Lichtenstein (nation of 32,000) has a cup competition. The nation's only pro team, FC Vaduz, which plays in the Swiss 2nd division dominates the competition but at least there's a cup. The winner even gets to compete in the UEFA Cup qualification. The Canada Open cup winner could try to compete in a CONCACAF Cup qualification.

The concept of regional leagues with national championship playoffs among the winners is good. After all, the CPSL is a regional league. This could all be done within the next 5 years. Maybe even a deserving Montreal team in MLS by 2010, who would get to participate in the Canada Open Cup. This would be initial steps to take toward the eventual creation of a Canadian 1st tier league.

[DoyleG]

Australia has a top flight leage but no national cup.

[Michael Crampton]

Success for me:

Stable clubs able to attract the best domestic talent dispersed across the entire country playing in front of reasonable crowds in soccer friendly stadiums from early May to late October culminating in a recognized national championship (league, cup, or play-off).

By stable clubs I mean that they are viewed as integral to the well being of the community which they inhabit - that they are seen as a community asset rather than just an "entertainment" option - and have the assets, ownership, and sound business principles to ensure that they exist year after year. Also, they should contribute to the development of elite Canadian players by operating a full youth system and optimally a reserve squad.

By domestic talent I mean players in Canada. The best Czech players don't play in the Czech league they play in Italy, Germany, and England - our very best should always aspire to do the same. MLS should always attract some of our talent as well just as EPL attracts the best Scots. All I'm asking is that if a player has a choice between senior amateur or our elite clubs he'll always choose the elite clubs because the level of competition, pay, or (heaven forbid) "fame" make it more desireable than senior amateur.

By dispersed across the whole country I mean that there be at least a network of small clubs in every region of the country which allow promising young players to develop close to home. Admittedly this is optimistic as not even the CFL manages a club in every region. In a perfect world regional feeder leagues would allow for promotion/relegation to a Canadian Premier League but I'm not going to hold my breath for that.

Reasonable crowds can mean 200-1000 in regional leagues, 2000-5000 on average for top regional teams and lower "national league" teams, and (hopefully) 10,000-30,000 (one day) for elite, perennial national league, "big-city" clubs. No matter how many people are there though the key is that they be there to watch soccer not mascots. I'd rather stand with 200 die-hards than 2000 kids on "school day" no matter which is more finacially viable. In a perfect world reasonable crowds would also imply being taken seriously by the local and national media.

Soccer friendly (though not necessarily soccer specific) stadiums should have no football lines and allow the soccer clubs to set their own schedule. Quality pitches and nice fan amenities are a bonus rather than a requirement though they may help individual clubs be successful.

Early May to late October is the viable (outdoor) soccer playing season for 90% of this country. It's just long enough to fit a reasonable 24-30 game schedule. Personally I hate the fact that the USL D1 season ends so early. I know the reasons for it but that doesn't stop me from finding it any less unsatisfactory from a fan perspective.

I'm with DJT - the ultimate point is to have a defined national championship. Everything else is secondary and could or should be sacrificed to achieve that. Sports are ultimately about competing to win trophies and find out who the best is. Player development, making money, and (though it's being more and more forgotten) providing entertainment are actually secondary. That's why I'd rephrase the question as "define success for Canadian club soccer." Pro, semi-pro, or amateur I don't give a damn as long as the competition is there.

Mike.

-edit: clarified one concept and fixed some misleading misspellings that may have blurred my points.

[coppercanuck]

Canadian Pro Soccer Success:

Growth...

-Developing players for top Euro clubs is not a bad goal. It is great, if the local club gets a transfer fee. That would help grow the club. The young talent in Canada need to be tied to Canada (aka the Hargreves Factor) Did the Calgary Minor Soccer get any money when he went to Germany? No? Shame.... ManU was looking to sign a 9-year old Brazilian... I'd urge the CSA to get it's act together with regards to club play. Get it together under the same rules.

-Getting more people in the stands, year to year. Look at Montreal, the have built slowly but surely and now they are looking at a new stadium of their own. The numbers in each city will be different but any positive growth will be good.

-Not sure how you measure fan interest but media interest/exposure is where the casual fan will be drawn in.

-CSA Cup would be great and the CSA would not have to spend $50 million to do it. 16 teams, 2 sets of games (NCAA BB style) long weekend Sat, Mon; make it an invitational for the first year for all I care just "Doo it"

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Canadian Pro Soccer Success:

-Developing players for top Euro clubs is not a bad goal. It is great, if the local club gets a transfer fee. That would help grow the club. The young talent in Canada need to be tied to Canada (aka the Hargreves Factor) Did the Calgary Minor Soccer get any money when he went to Germany? No? Shame.... ManU was looking to sign a 9-year old Brazilian... I'd urge the CSA to get it's act together with regards to club play. Get it together under the same rules.

What I want to point out though is that selling on players to finance the league (which is how all second and lower tier Euro leagues operate) is a means rather than an end. I'll never be disappointed that the Paul Stalteris and Craig Forrests of the world want to play in the EPL - that is a great professional achievement for both of them. The end (to me) is a national club competition that meets the criteria I established. Whatever means (or business plan if you prefer) allow that end is fine with me.

Mike.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

I think the misconception with stadia is that they have to be built completely the first time. Hamilton Academical (Scottish 1st Div.) recently build a new ground and it has gorgeous seating for 6000 people (4500 main stand, 1500 end stand). If they ever need to develop the rest of the ground, there are two sides to built upon.

Soccer specific stadia shouldn't have to be 10000+ right out of the box, and though it may be cheaper to do so, it is also unnecessary. Develop what you need to work with first, and if demand requires it, grow it some more later.

I would agree that the club should be 'of the community' rather than an exploitive way to get money out of soccer moms and dads. Perhaps the East Hamilton soccer club would be better serving of building their own small ground with seats for 1000 and growing that way, rather than waiting for a Saputo/Kerfoot to come along and dump serious coin into a full ground immediately. Not meaning to disrespect that method (since it is faster), but the mindset of a club setting rather than a corporate setting might endear a community to the game more effectively.

I wonder if Ferrari is thinking of building his own ground?

[DoyleG]

One of the things that hold back a Canadian League is not that of a lack of potential investors but suitable stadia. How sweet of an idea that the $35 Million orginally set for the TO stadium could be used in helping upgrade smaller facilities to host a Canadian professional league.

The city council here in Edmonton voted to have Fieldturf installed at Clarke Park. This makes the stadium rather useless for track (which it was re-developed for the 2001 World Track Championships as a warm-up stadium). There's enough land around the site to expand it to at least 6,000 if not more. The city has already spent $15 Millon on Chruchill Square plus sevral million on a new park in the river valley. Shouldn't be hard to push them to build a better facility.

Certainly some of that U20 money could be used to leave a much better legacy behind.

[RealGooner]

So Doyle, what kind of PAYING crowds are going to support this Canadian League? How much is the league going to have to PAY TSN or Sportsnet to broadcast it?