Joe Concacaf Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Is Canada even one of the top 8 teams in the region? In the last 5 years, in the last two qualifying campaigns, 8 teams from concacaf have made it farther than us. Compare all this to 1993, when we were second best in the region (despite the fact USA were in automatically, but at the time we were still just as good as the Americans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reza Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 yeah... Mexico and USA are a cut above the rest. Ticos are next. And I think Canada, Honduras, Guatemala, Jamaica and now Panama are about the same. T&T is below these and made it to the final 6 thanks to some generous grouping this time. They were on a hot streak last time around unfortunately for Canada in the first round. I would say they are about the same as El Salvador nowadays. The team that has truly jumped up in CONCACAF has to be Panama. Once a baseball nation, they now have sent a team to a couple of FIFA tournaments (U-20 and something else), and are in the final 6 and doing pretty decent (they were secondsaway from tying the Ticos in Costa Rica). Their group was no easy ride either with the likes of USA, Jamaica and El Salvador in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 FIFA has us 9th in the region which is about right given our embarrassing performance this past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I keep and update a spreadsheet that I created a few years back showing all of our MNT results in WCQ, Gold cup, "A" matches from 1986 ( after the WC) to present. I also track of our record and winning percentage between each WC. I go as far as to calculate our performance against quality and non quality opponents. Trust, me it aint pretty!!! No matter how you try to look at it. In fact you might be surprised to know that, statistically, we have have never had a record as poor as we currently have in this world cup cycle ( ie.: from WC2002 to WC2006). We are are hitting uncharted depths. Whatever methodology you use, its all going to come down to wins, draws, and losses. And if you look at it that way, nine best in Concacaf might be generous. Thats the reality unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Just found it. here it is Past 20 Years Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 53 32 68 153 0.451 Versus Quality opp 19 18 51 89 0.315 Versus Non-Quality opp 34 14 17 64 0.641 Up to WC 1990 Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 11 3 14 28 0.446 Versus Quality opp 5 2 11 18 0.333 Versus Non-Quality opp 6 1 3 10 0.650 Up to WC 1994 Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 8 10 16 34 0.382 Versus Quality opp 4 6 13 23 0.304 Versus Non-Quality opp 4 4 3 11 0.545 Up to WC 1998 Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 11 5 14 30 0.450 Versus Quality opp 3 3 13 19 0.237 Versus Non-Quality opp 8 2 1 11 0.818 Up to WC 2002 Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 16 12 11 39 0.564 Versus Quality opp 5 7 8 20 0.425 Versus Non-Quality opp 11 5 3 19 0.711 Up to WC 2006 Wins Draws Losses Total matches Percentage Overall 7 2 13 22 0.364 Versus Quality opp 2 0 7 9 0.222 Versus Non-Quality opp 5 2 6 13 0.462 Note: quality opp is defined as an opponent who has qualified for the WC finals atb least once in the period from 1986 to present. percentage is calculated by taking the total number of draws and putting half in the wins and half in the loss column. Then, winning % is total game won divided by tolal played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Concacaf Posted March 30, 2005 Author Share Posted March 30, 2005 I remember thinking when a third spot was awarded to concacaf for France 98 that it would almost be a given it would be going to Canada. Instead we have been passed by a number of countries in the years since. Obviously this is all the proof anyone needs that not having a CSL is killing us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf Obviously this is all the proof anyone needs that not having a CSL is killing us. But we have the the A-league now. Which much better than the CSL ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick But we have the the A-league now. Which much better than the CSL ever was. But which has, with its limited clubs, produced much less important players for the squad (whereas almost everyone had played in the CSL in our previous generation). Although some of this has to do with the emergence of Canadians growing up in clubs in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Don't forget Cuba - they humbled us at the last Gold Cup and have had consistently good results in CONCACAF in the past couple of years so I would now rate them among the third-tier teams. (I'm also looking forward to avenging our loss from two years ago at this summer's Gold Cup.) [8D] I also remain unconvinced that Panama has truly stepped up into the third tier. It's possible, but I think they need to continue producing good results to prove that they aren't just a "fourth-tier team on a hot streak" like T&T was a couple of years ago. My ranking: First Tier: Mexico, USA Second Tier: Costa Rica Third Tier: Canada, Cuba, Guatemala, Honduras, Jamaica Fourth Tier: El Salvador, Haiti, Panama, T&T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 May as well join the party My ranking: First Tier: Mexico, USA Second Tier: Costa Rica, Honduras Third Tier: Canada, TnT, Jamaica Fourth Tier: El Salvador, Haiti, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Dave, I noticed that you have TnT in the third tier and Guatemala in the fourth. You must have not seen the score line from Concacaf WCQ from this weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Dave, I noticed that you have TnT in the third tier and Guatemala in the fourth. You must have not seen the score line from Concacaf WCQ from this weekend Well, it's only one game. Cuba eliminated us from the last GC, but I still think we are better than them. All a matter of opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Dave Well, it's only one game. Cuba eliminated us from the last GC, but I still think we are better than them. All a matter of opinion of course. The first Tier teams should be the teams from the last WC. Tier 1: USA, Mexico, Costa Rica Canada has not even made the Hex in the last two WC Qualifications so I cannot place them in Tier 2 or 3 at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick But we have the the A-league now. Which much better than the CSL ever was. Daniel you must be kidding. The A League is much better than the CSL was???? Canada has one good team in the A League (Montreal). Vancouver are no where near the CSL's 86 ers and Toronto Lynx are not even close to the Blizzard or Hamilton from the CSL. I won't even get into te Alberta A League teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 OOoooh...this is a debate all on its own. When I look at CONCACAF rankings, I take into account U20 success...and clearly, we are way ahead of the game. Our country's challenge recently has been the conversion of those U20 players into senior national team players. And the reason for THAT is because everybody gets spread around in Europe playing different styles and not getting together as a group until qualification or the odd friendly. So maybe that's why some people feel it would be better to have the top Canadians playing at home and gettin paid for it (MLS or CSL whatever) There is absolutely no excuse given Canada's population and youth soccer participation and good Canadian genetics...that we should be 3rd in the region. The one advantage to the smaller Central Amercian and Carribbean countries is their climate allows everyone to play year round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Observer Daniel you must be kidding. The A League is much better than the CSL was???? Canada has one good team in the A League (Montreal). Vancouver are no where near the CSL's 86 ers and Toronto Lynx are not even close to the Blizzard or Hamilton from the CSL. I won't even get into te Alberta A League teams. That wasn't me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer And the reason for THAT is because everybody gets spread around in Europe playing different styles and not getting together as a group until qualification or the odd friendly. So maybe that's why some people feel it would be better to have the top Canadians playing at home and gettin paid for it (MLS or CSL whatever) Thank you. That is exactly how I feel. We went through phases 1)domestic north american pro league - This got us to the WC in 86 2)Domestic pan canadian league - this didn't get to the WC 3) No domestic league all together - same result as number two. 4)Domestic North american league which constitutes D2 for our rival. - same result as 2 and 3 Point three and four led to getting as many players to Europe as possible and selecting those players for the MNT which was the logical way to go. But perhaps now we learned that even this has its limitation because as you put it: " And the reason for THAT is because everybody gets spread around in Europe playing different styles and not getting together as a group until qualification or the odd friendly" . All thats left to try is something like MLS and hope that 1-3 canadians sides get to field MLS teams and then hope that someting like 50%-70% of the core team can be derived from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC Beast Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Dave May as well join the party My ranking: First Tier: Mexico, USA Second Tier: Costa Rica, Honduras Third Tier: Canada, TnT, Jamaica Fourth Tier: El Salvador, Haiti, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala Canada above Guatemala?? Are you kidding Dave. Did you actually watch the wcq when Guatemala kicked our back sides? Canada should be more in a 5th tier, with Belize. Someone else posted we're ranked 9th in Concacaf which seems a bit high considering how we have played in the last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by FC Beast Canada above Guatemala?? Are you kidding Dave. Did you actually watch the wcq when Guatemala kicked our back sides? Canada should be more in a 5th tier, with Belize. Someone else posted we're ranked 9th in Concacaf which seems a bit high considering how we have played in the last season. and then we beat them in Guatemala while fielding a crappy roster.... so go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 right now, I'd say with good confidence that we are a tier 3 team. Tier One USA and Mexico Tier Two Costa Rica Tier Three Canada, Honduras, Panama, Guatamala, T&T, Jamaica We could push up a notch, but it'll take some time still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Rather than saying we are a third tier team with just three teams above us (which to me sounds a bit silly) I'm comfortable with saying there are three teams clearly better than we are (or are capable of being at the moment), to varying degrees. After that everything is up for debate, I personally don't think another other team outside of the top three has greater talent to draw from. Deciding where teams are based on getting into the Hex is a little misleading, to say the least - we all think (I hope) that the Hex system is massively flawed, so why use it as the be all & end all as to where teams are ranked? T&T has stunk the joint out thus far, to everyone's complete lack of surprise. Are we going to say they are ahead of us right now simply because they slipped past St. Kitts & St. Vincent thanks to Jack Warner pulling some strings for them while we get shafted in the group of death and by the Refs once we are in the group of death? That's not to say we didn't under-perform at times (1st match agaisnt Guatemala being the biggest under-performance I've ever seen in WCQ), but you get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Rather than saying we are a third tier team with just three teams above us (which to me sounds a bit silly) I'm comfortable with saying there are three teams clearly better than we are (or are capable of being at the moment), to varying degrees. Who cares if you think it is a bit silly? And who says that there must be a set number of teams in each of the two tiers above us to make it "not-silly"? That is just as arbitrary. Feel free to come up with your own system and justifications and criteria, but I like my three tiers just as they are. We could rank each of these 3 teams in order of their strength, though this too would be arbitrary. In fact, we could do most anything we want and still come up with an arbitrary assessment, including the one you are "comfortable with", which is just as arbitrary. Perhaps it isn't "silly", but it sure is damned boring. Damn, so much arbitrariness from a lawyer--who woulda thunk-it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC Beast Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 quote:Originally posted by CanadianSoccerFan and then we beat them in Guatemala while fielding a crappy roster.... so go figure Guatemala was already into the next round, why risk their players in what was more or less a friendly at that point. Canada may well have earned the win, and by all reports they did play well, but what if the game had meant something to Guatemala? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 quote:Originally posted by FC Beast Guatemala was already into the next round, why risk their players in what was more or less a friendly at that point. Canada may well have earned the win, and by all reports they did play well, but what if the game had meant something to Guatemala? We would've got creamed like a can of corn!! We're lucky even to be a silly 3rd tier CONCACASS team. Sometimes I wonder if we should even be allowed to have a team. Our U15s probably could do better in WCQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 quote:Originally posted by The Beaver Who cares if you think it is a bit silly? Why, who needs to care? Were we discussing something important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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