Lynx Have A Go At CSA

[SeanKeay]

BTW, notice everyone is quick to love the hartress are guys who dont even support the team. (Except DB.. but hes luis anyways ;)jk )

[Varsity Tyler]

As fans, you can go a long time with the prospect of "tomorrow". Look at the Leafs - they might not win the cup for a while longer, but at least they had some pretty damn exciting playoff runs in the 90s and early 2000s to keep things interesting. They opened a new stadium, too. They launched a TV channel. They do well in the regular season. But what happens where's there's never any good news? How long do you wait for something positive to happen?

I've volunteered for the Lynx, I've been to games, I've put up my money and all of the above. Trust me, I've put forward a damn good effort and I would love to see some success, but it's just not going to happen. At this point I'm not even concerned with winning the A League, I just want something that I'm not embarassed to take my friends to, and even that seems out of reach. So why should I be questioned when I want to support something that has guarantees success, when by my definition success means a decent place to play, some respect for the team, respect for the game and just a pinch of a competitive edge?

How long do the Lynx owners want blind faith from the people around them? Yeah the CSA played dirty, but at the same time the Lynx didn't give them any incentive to work with the team and play clean. I'll watch the Lynx until another option exists, because in all reality they've done nothing to deserve any loyalty. Sure they've kept the team afloat, but there's been no dignity in it at all. There's nothing to look forward to.

[Moosehead]

"I think any professional team — the Lynx or, let's call it, MLS, in the near future, meaning within the next five years, would be hard-pressed to draw more than 10,000 fans a game."

I cannot really disagree with this statement. The Lynx has had some really good players over the years and in a bad facility were drawing 3,000 in a better facility but not perfect I think a jump to 10,000 is reasonable but significantly beyong that with FieldTurf and in an Argo flavoured stadium, I doubt it. I would be interested to see how big of a difference, FieldTurf in McMahon stadium in Calgary would have made to the Mustangs fan support. MLSE has deep pockets and may field a competitive team but they will want to make money on this venture and suspect they would not tolerate the losses that the Lynx have had over the years. I suspect that they are not going to draw the Euro fan out, so they will be reliant on the so called hard core soccer fan and the make believe fan be that the soccer mom market or future kids market. I hate to be so negative but I feel that the stadium has been compromised to such an extent that it will effect the success of an Mls franchise and I am unsure of the committmnet of MLSE to sustain losses and mediocre fan support for any length of time.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

And you are Polish LYNX Fan?

I am certainly no fan of the Hartrells, but I hate the way the Lynx have been treated.

The fact that even the most hardcore Lynx fans are ready to jump ship should tell you something - not about the fans, but about the organization.

The ones you are hearing from are the ones who are still here. There are those who quit attending Lynx matches prior to the talk of MLS expansion.

Frank no longer attends the games. This was a man who was willing to sponsor the team himself at one point. He also went out of his way to promote investment in the team to his business clients.

Mirza no longer attents. This is the man who started the freakin' Ultras, and the man who is responsible for the support afforded to the Lynx by many of the Ultras you find on this board.

Are you seriously suggesting that Mirza and Frank lack dedication?

I'll speak for myself here...

The only reason I put my heart into supporting the Lynx, and supported them as if they were a legitimate, respectable soccer team, was because *I* wanted to. *I* desired a local club of my own to follow and support. *I* desired to have what fans all over the world have. Hence, it was through my own effort that I tried my best to support this team and to see them in the light of a serious club - a club I could be proud of and a club I could call my own.

My support had nothing to do with the Lynx ability to market themselves, or their ability to present a respectable product. I had to struggle to see them in such a light. And now, that light has faded.

Understand that I am unique in this way. I went out and tried my best to support this team and see them in a positive, respectable light. I did this *in spite* of the image the Lynx projected.

Do you think most fans will do this? Of course not! Most fans have to be convinced to support the team. They have to be convinced that the Lynx are legit and respectable. They will not do what I do and take it upon themselves to give the Lynx the benefit of the doubt, just to have a team to support.

So if, as a hardcore supporter, *I* can't even take the team seriously, how are other potential fans going to?

Whether it be theme days, the lack of dedication to the on-field product, the environment of pure cheese that is projected on game-day, the pandering, the lack of forward thinking/vision – ALL OF THIS has whittled away at my ability to take this team seriously. The organization has made it so I don’t even feel like I’m supporting a soccer club – it feels like I’m supporting some kind of daycare service. I mean, this is a team that restricts it’s hardcore fans from attending games against their most hated rival because it’s games against Rochester that are always designated as school/camp days.

The idea of rivalries/derbies should be at the forefront of the soccer-supporting experience. But of course, this isn’t a soccer team. It’s some kind of bizarre social experiment!

If this was a legit soccer team, then the organization would work to build a long term, dedicated fanbase.

They don’t do this. And it is this which is the crux of the Lynx problem.

The Lynx are content to market their product on a game-by-game basis, on the lure of theme days and cheesy, pointless gimmicks.

What does any legit club do? They market the team based on…. THE TEAM! The message is simple: Hey, we have a great soccer team. They represent your city/community. They showcase great talent – local talent! Become a fan of our team; follow the team by coming to every game, this year and for years to come!

In my opinion, the Lynx neglect this and thus neglect actually developing a consistent fan base. It seems that, as we see with the focus on theme days and gimmicks in their presentation the Lynx market based on individual games (or as they see them, events), and every game they market to a different “fan base”. So what happens? Well, the people who came out for one game, and came based on the lure of a theme, not the team, won’t come for the next game. So there’s no fan base being developed. And most importantly, there's no real awareness in the city of the team as a legit sports team. So who's gonna follow them?

One game it’s youth clubs. The next game it’s the Italian community. The next it’s the Caribbean community, the next it’s schools…

I’d explain myself but for certain reasons (reasons that will go unstated) I will refrain from getting into specifics.

I will just say this as a fan…

The Lynx refuse to market themselves as a soccer team, and refuse to actually try and develop a long term fan base (that come out to enjoy the team, not because of gimmicks). In my mind, this makes them look, not like a soccer team, but like some kind of large organization that, amongst its many services, presents a product involving soccer. As long as the Lynx continue down this path, and as long as they market themselves based on gimmicks, and not on the team, how can I take them seriously.

I try my hardest to ignore this, but it is just to hard. Thus, when an MLS club pops up and offers up something I can be proud of – a soccer team, not what the Lynx are – how can I turn this down?

Tyler mentioned that he was fed up with the lack of results. I don’t care about results. If the organization takes itself seriously as a legit soccer club, and thus makes it so I can support, follow, and love the club, a real club, just as any fan in Europe would in following their team, then I am content. As long as I can go to the stadium and feel I am taking part in what is essentially a soccer-going experience, one in which the focus, the energy in the stadium, and the environment all projects on that is based on the soccer team on the field and the aim of following and supporting that team, then again, I am content. Results don’t matter, it is the ability to be proud of the club I call my own.

I can’t do that with the Lynx.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

I truly sympathize with the predicament in which the Hartrell's find themselves. They are in tough and they know full well that if MLS should come to Toronto, they will have to either shut down, move the franchise, or sell the franchise to someone who will locate it elsewhere.

But the sad truth is that soccer in Toronto needs a shot of adrenaline and the Lynx are not going to provide that. They could win the A-League championship and it would not have any measurable impact.

The Hartrell's deserve great credit for keeping the Lynx alive but they had to know that this could happen.

While others here have differing viewpoints, in my opinion (as I have said here before), the only hope for professional soccer in Toronto is MLS.

The Hartrell's are going to have to take a serious look at Oakville or Hamilton as their new home if they should decide to persevere.

db

Absolutely!

I am very critical of the Hartrells and how they have run this organization. However, even I know, all criticism that is levelled at them, must first be placed in context.

While the Lynx are a very difficult club to support, and while it is due, in my opinion, to the decisions made by the head office that this is so (not because Toronto is not a soccer town, or anything else..) it is without a doubt that, if it were not for the Hartrells dedication - dedication that has gone above and beyond the call of duty - and their willingness to invest so much and to, as it seems, get back so little, then Toronto would not even have a professional team to support period.

So on one hand, yes, the Hartrells are a problem. But on the other they are also a Godsend.

We can sit here and bash them as much as we like. But the fact is, if any of us were faced with the sacrifices they have been forced to make to keep the team afloat, we would certainly not think it was worth it.

[Gian-Luca]

I go to Lynx games & I agree 100% with the CSA behind the move to bring professional soccer to Toronto. And most soccer fans in Toronto that I've talked to (actually, all that I've talked to) plus many casual sports fans have two things in common - they would go to an MLS game & they've never even heard of the Lynx (or if they have, are not impressed with them in the slightest).

If Hartrell doesn't believe that its possible to get 10,000 fans at a game (which is a historically incorrect belief) why did he spend 4.5 million on a team in the hopes that he would be gifted with a stadium, which he would then only fill up a third of the stadium with, at best? Why not focus your attempts at Lamport, which is the perfect size for your organization's alleged expectations?

I like Richard Peddie's comment in the Globe article "If anybody can make soccer work in Toronto, it's us" - a nice retort to Bruno's suggestions that the Hartrell's know all about who is interested in soccer & that they've tried everything to get people out (everything except actually marketing themselves, providing a winning team and courting the media and other useless things like that).

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

But the CSA's interest is soccer in Canada. The development of the game and competitiveness of the national team. Its not about the USL or MLS etc etc... these are just letters in the alphabet. But who invests in soccer and whoever the caretakers of Canadian soccer players are does affect the CSA. So Yes, owners such as Saputo and Kerfoot deserve support because in doing so there is a a benefit to the CSA and the game as a whole in Canada. Yallop was spotted at some games in Montreal last year but we never saw him in TO. Notice also that a senior member of the Impact holds a seat on the board of directors of the CSA. So the Support is reciprocal.

But can the same synergies and mutual benefits between the CSA and club soccer exist with the Lynx ( in their current state)given the kind of operation that the Lynx currently run? I don't think so. You just need to look at the composition of our recent MNT's at the senior and youth level for the answer to that question. Look at how many Lynx player there are versus Impact and whitecap players. Consider also that the Lynx have perhaps the largest pool of talent in canada tio select from.

[Free kick]

My earlier quote: "You just need to look at the composition of our recent MNT's at the senior and youth level for the answer to that question. Look at how many Lynx player there are versus Impact and whitecap players."

Before someone reminds me of the names Stalteri and Derosario, consider these players were with the Lyns at a time when the Lynx ownership group was a little different than what it currently is

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

[brHad the CSL [CSA?] in any way, shape, or form tried to help the Lynx become a success in Canada's most populace city and richest province (you know, for the good of the game) then I'd tell them to shut their gob and move over, but I don't think that's been the case. Other's will know better, but I figure I'm pretty close to the mark.

I guess that is a matter of interpretation.

The CSA brought together a team to build a national league called the CUSL. Under that plan the Lynx would have been the biggest benificiary of sponsorship and marketing money as they were the THE club in the THE most important market (money wise) in the country. Anything done to support and promote a full national league would have built up the Lynx in the eyes of the media, sponsors and sports fans.

Bruno Hartrell, after working on the plan for months, turned around and completely misrepresented the CUSL plan and, in my opinion, libelled the committee by making allegations he had to know were ficticious. His motives remain a mystery but his actions were the biggest ass-raping I have heard of in Canadian soccer.

So no, he gets not one whiff of sympathy from me because he cares not one whit for the game in Canada or Toronto. If he truly supported the best soccer possible in Toronto he would be in support of the MLS. If he truly supported the best soccer possible in Canada he would have supported the CUSL.

Motives other than his own personal glory/martyrdom cannot be supported by his actions so yes, he should shut his gob.

[xx(]

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by ted

The CSA brought together a team to build a national league called the CUSL. Under that plan the Lynx would have been the biggest benificiary of sponsorship and marketing money as they were the THE club in the THE most important market (money wise) in the country. Anything done to support and promote a full national league would have built up the Lynx in the eyes of the media, sponsors and sports fans.

Bruno Hartrell, after working on the plan for months, turned around and completely misrepresented the CUSL plan and, in my opinion, libelled the committee by making allegations he had to know were ficticious. His motives remain a mystery but his actions were the biggest ass-raping I have heard of in Canadian soccer.

Yes, I had heard about this from a couple of other sources as well. As such, its not a surprise that the CSA have not gone back to him to upgrade pro soccer in Toronto (and it also puts the "stabbed in the back" comments in a somewhat ironic light).

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Moosehead

"I think any professional team — the Lynx or, let's call it, MLS, in the near future, meaning within the next five years, would be hard-pressed to draw more than 10,000 fans a game."

I cannot really disagree with this statement. The Lynx has had some really good players over the years and in a bad facility were drawing 3,000 in a better facility but not perfect I think a jump to 10,000 is reasonable but significantly beyong that with FieldTurf and in an Argo flavoured stadium, I doubt it. I would be interested to see how big of a difference, FieldTurf in McMahon stadium in Calgary would have made to the Mustangs fan support. MLSE has deep pockets and may field a competitive team but they will want to make money on this venture and suspect they would not tolerate the losses that the Lynx have had over the years. I suspect that they are not going to draw the Euro fan out, so they will be reliant on the so called hard core soccer fan and the make believe fan be that the soccer mom market or future kids market. I hate to be so negative but I feel that the stadium has been compromised to such an extent that it will effect the success of an Mls franchise and I am unsure of the committmnet of MLSE to sustain losses and mediocre fan support for any length of time.

From what I have read in this forum about the lack of any meaningful presence of the Toronto Lynx brand in the media, I am quite sure that with the commitment, business savvy and marketing expertise and dollars of MLSE behind an MLS team you will see the Toronto MLS team brand all over the place in a scientifically crafted and ongoing marketing campaign that will inevitably end up with healthy ticket sales far in excess of anything the Toronto Lynx have achieved.

I read that the Hartrells have invested $4.5 million in the Lynx to date? That's less than half of the cost of an MLS franchise and probably less than the first year operating loss MLSE will build into their MLS team business plan. We are talking apples and oranges here guys, an MLSE operation will be premier league relative to what has been done with the Lynx so far. If it is not you can be sure of one thing, MLSE will not go ahead with this project.

[G-Man]

I always thought the Lynx were set-up to lose money, so a limited partnership, could write off some tax. Which I'm sure most of the 4.5 million has been.

cry me a river.

[Cheeta]

Here's what I don't get.

Who in their right mind would sink a nickle into MLS? This is an organization which's lost hundreds of millions of American dollars over the past 10 years. And that's after you include the 80 millions they sucked out of the Florida expansion teams before folding them!

And it's not as though MLSE will be buying a team. They'll be buying a 1/13th share of MLS. Even if the Toronto club can make money hand over fist, those moneys will ultimately be shared with all the big money losers. So no monetary return. Or at least the evidence to date would lead one to believe that.

Like I wrote before. I hope MLS is evolving into something beyond this single entity organization and maybe Chivas and MLSE know it so there buying in. But that's just wild speculation.

As to the CUSL fiasco, well in truth I'd totaly forgotten about that. I think that whole episode is a little too complicated to simply write off as egos and turf protection but maybe not. Don't know. Still, it's a very interesting point. I however don't give the CSA enough credit to consider them capable of vindictive actions. Least of all as far as that whole CUSL fantasy is concearned. Still, pretty damn interesting.

[Andrew W]

Just for info's sake the current investor/operator situation in MLS is as follows:

Chivas USA: Jorge Vergara and Antonio Cue

Colorado: E. Stanley Kroenke

FC Dallas: Hunt Sports Group

LA Galaxy: Anschutz Entertainment Group

Fake Salt Lake: David W. Checketts and Sports Capital Partners

San Jose: Anschutz Entertainment Group (currently for sale)

Chicago: Anschutz Entertainment Group

Columbus: Hunt Sports Group

DC United: Anschutz Entertainment Group

Kansas City: Hunt Sports Group (currently for sale)

Metrostars: Anschutz Entertainment Group

New England: Robert Kraft

I think most of these people are in their right mind and all except Checketts are exceptionally wealthy. The key for them is to mitigate their losses with other ventures either loosely or tightly tied into MLS. This is why MLSE seems tailor-made for this group. If they become a partner in MLS, and in particular AEG, they tie in with one of the largest concert promoters anywhere. As well, MLSE current setup includes broadcasting technology (Leafs and Raptors TV) something that would endear them to MLS even more. There may be many key strategic reasons for hooking up with MLS that goes well beyond soccer.

While the league is over one-third owned by AEG, it has been speculated that they'd sell one or two of their franchises. They currently own LA Galaxy and the Home Depot Centre so that is one they will keep. As well, the Chicago Fire are building a SSS, so they may like to keep that one. As far as DC and the Metrostars are concerned, I believe they are pretty enamoured with the success of DC United, but the stadium situation (with the arrival of the Nationals) may make things change to the point where they'd sell the franchise if another O/I came along with a stadium plan. The Metrostars with their stadium problems and lack of success might be one they'd sell too, but it is New York after all and that's a property that might just convince them to keep it.

I find the whole thing quite facinating. I couldn't imagine having that kind of money to play with.

[DoyleG]

Real Salt Lake hits some snags in regards to a stadium.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600116304,00.html

http://www.sltrib.com/realsaltlake/ci_2595705

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

I however don't give the CSA enough credit to consider them capable of vindictive actions.

You don't have to be vindictive to not work with the Hartnells you business partners, you just have to have business sense.

You could work with the most successful sports owners in Canada, or you could work with the Hartrells. Who would you choose?

[Cheeta]

Strange bedfellows no matter how you slice it.

Didn't MLSE sink the CNE/New Varsity plans? I thought they were of the opinion the business plan out at those sites was an unjustifyable investment.

But now, out a York they feel they can piggyback onto success in the new stadium with an MLS franchise? Guess maybe it is if you don't have to pony up the capital for a stadium.

Yeah. That's who I want to deal with. The guys who said don't build it in the 1st place, it'll be a White Elephant.

Like I wrote. Strange bedfellows.

[Massive Attack]

MLSE didn't sink the Varsity project. After MLSE pulled out, the Argos, the CSA and the U of T pressed on with the project. The Varsity project was eventually killed by a bunch of NIMBYers with the aid of city councilor Olivia Chow and by some U of T back room shenanigans.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Strange bedfellows no matter how you slice it.

Didn't MLSE sink the CNE/New Varsity plans? I thought they were of the opinion the business plan out at those sites was an unjustifyable investment.

But now, out a York they feel they can piggyback onto success in the new stadium with an MLS franchise? Guess maybe it is if you don't have to pony up the capital for a stadium.

Yeah. That's who I want to deal with. The guys who said don't build it in the 1st place, it'll be a White Elephant.

Like I wrote. Strange bedfellows.

I say let Toronto live in it's delusions of grandeur. MLS will save soccer in Canada (?) and USL-Div 1 will never sell in T-O 'cuz it's not considered top flight Yankee which is what they need to sell anything in the Big Smoke. The rest of us should keep our mouths shut and let those with-in the city limits live in their world.

Hartrells if you got any dough left can I suggest investing Down East we promise to include you in any discussions. Just don't follow the history of Upper Canadians and take our money and go home.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Yeah. That's who I want to deal with. The guys who said don't build it in the 1st place, it'll be a White Elephant.

MLSE didn't say that. That was Perkins & McCown, card-carrying members of $HIT (Soccer Hating Idiots of Toronto).

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Strange bedfellows no matter how you slice it.

Didn't MLSE sink the CNE/New Varsity plans? I thought they were of the opinion the business plan out at those sites was an unjustifyable investment.

But now, out a York they feel they can piggyback onto success in the new stadium with an MLS franchise? Guess maybe it is if you don't have to pony up the capital for a stadium.

Yeah. That's who I want to deal with. The guys who said don't build it in the 1st place, it'll be a White Elephant.

Like I wrote. Strange bedfellows.

Perhaps the two are strange bedfellow. It would never be far fetched to suggest that MLSE are motivated only by greed and self interest. In fact I am not even disputing Perkins assertion that this is all part of underhanded ploy by MLSE to get Governments to to sink $$$ in into facilities only to allow them ( MLSE) to come like vultures and scoop up the assets and a fraction of the value. But that is business afterall.

But if the end result means getting pro soccer and better facilities for the game, then so what. If MLSE does get into the mls, then they willl have to sell tickets since pension funds don't like to lose money. It will be up to fans to respond.

But what bothers me about Perkins, he is employed as sports writer and his readers are sports fans, presumably. Shouldn't improved facilities and enhanced entertainment value be the priciple concern of sports fans rather than who owns this building,how they acquired it or what their motivation is behind their business decisons are? Similarly, why wouldn't a sport department in any media outlet not wish to have more sports to cover or topics to discuss? The only reason I can think of for taking that stance is that Perkins doesn't want soccer in Toronto. Likely because it will mean more choices for teh consumer's entertainment dollar than just Baseball.

[soccer dad]

What about the players?

Goals,dreams,aspirations. Call it what you will.

Don't you think our up and coming players would be slightly more inspired at the hopes of someday playing for the Toronto Whatevers in the MLS with it's hype and media coverage and albiet relatively small but able to live off salary than the Lynx?

Now, most who dream of playing professional sports will never make it, but it should produce better players all around and a larger fan base.Two things needed in Canadian soccer.

Everyone needs something to look forward to in life even if it is never achieved it gives you something to strive toward and and gives you some meaning.

Everyone wants a better job that pays more money.Not everyone gets one.

If I had no personal and business goals, Why would I get out of bed in the morning? Set your sights just a little higher and great things can happen. Maybe,I'm an optimist,maybe my dreams are just that,"dreams" ,maybe I should be more realistic sometimes but that is what drives my ^ss

Isn't the MLS more realistic than the Premiership but still a step up?

That's just my two cents worth.I don't expect everyone to agree but to those who don't....What are your dreams?And, what are you doing to make them happen?

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by soccer dad

What about the players?

Goals,dreams,aspirations. Call it what you will.

Don't you think our up and coming players would be slightly more inspired at the hopes of someday playing for the Toronto Whatevers in the MLS with it's hype and media coverage and albiet relatively small but able to live off salary than the Lynx?

Now, most who dream of playing professional sports will never make it, but it should produce better players all around and a larger fan base.Two things needed in Canadian soccer.

Everyone needs something to look forward to in life even if it is never achieved it gives you something to strive toward and and gives you some meaning.

Everyone wants a better job that pays more money.Not everyone gets one.

If I had no personal and business goals, Why would I get out of bed in the morning? Set your sights just a little higher and great things can happen. Maybe,I'm an optimist,maybe my dreams are just that,"dreams" ,maybe I should be more realistic sometimes but that is what drives my ^ss

Isn't the MLS more realistic than the Premiership but still a step up?

That's just my two cents worth.I don't expect everyone to agree but to those who don't....What are your dreams?And, what are you doing to make them happen?

But why couldn't we create that same atmosphere in a distinctly Canadian League? We have 3, count them, 3 all sports stations in this country, not to mention other networks the cover sports occasionally, methinks that they could get some media exposure if they marketed themselves properly.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

But why couldn't we create that same atmosphere in a distinctly Canadian League? We have 3, count them, 3 all sports stations in this country, not to mention other networks the cover sports occasionally, methinks that they could get some media exposure if they marketed themselves properly.

The money just isn't there! Marketing doesn't grow on trees, you have to pay for it. Same with air time. The NHL can't get a "major league" tv deal in the USA so they have to sell their own ad time to make money.

If MLSE is really planning on getting into this, you will have a major league operator on board. That association alone will mean an awful lot in terms of being taken seriously.

We have to be realistic. One MLS match could very well outdraw an entire weekly slate of "New CSL" matches. If it can work in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver will follow even though Joey Saputo will not say so right now.

db