Second Wheelock Article - Interview with Peddie

[Massive Attack]

DoyleG, you still haven't responded to the bold part of my last post. But that's okay, I know you wouldn't want to have actual facts proving that you are wrong get into the way of your arguement. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if/when Toronto gets an MLS team.

That's it, I'm done with this issue.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

I'm not sure I continue to wade into this argument, especially since I'm not necessarily in favour of MLS in Canada.

However . . . the CFL limit is on foreigners. Not Canadians. If Canadians suddenly all became better at football than Americans (stictly for a hypothetical arguments sake), there wouldn't still be 19 Canadians and 20 Americans. There could be 39 Canadians. There can just be no fewer than 19.

Current MLS rules would say there can be no fewer than X Americans. It's the same thing as the CFL. You could dress all Americans if you wanted. But you have have a certain minimum number. But bringing that to Canada is the problem, because you can't guarantee a certain number of jobs for foreigners. That's the argument. And no I can't provide a legal basis because frankly I'm too lazy and I don't care that much, but it's common sense that you can't reserve jobs for a certain ratio of foreigners or cap the number of local citizens that work there.

cheers,

matthew

Thanks for your opinion.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

Already posted elsewhere. We really need to create one MLS thread or something because these multiple threads are driving me nuts.

Which thread was Perkins' second column posted in?

I looked all over for it but could only find the first one from a few days ago.

I, too, hate reading the sane thing in every thread, and I thought it was not posted elsewhere. My apologies.

[DJT]

It's in the "The sportscasters Toronto has to put up with..." thread along with the other Perkins article.

I didn't mean to come down on you, Rudi. I'm just frustrated by the current multitude of threads, as a moderator but also as a regular reader. To make it worse, the thread I'm talking about was originally in the MNT section, and I didn't want to confuse matters by moving it but had no choice as it became more and more about a Toronto MLS team. Furthermore, the thread title isn't very descriptive, but I didn't want to change it because such a change coupled with moving the thread to another section would be too disorienting. Such dilemmas occur all the time (as an organization freak, it drives me nuts). It would be helpful if the forum software was more flexible, but as that is out of our control all we can do is ask people to try to use existing threads instead of creating new ones, and use descriptive thread titles and put it in the appropriate section when you absolutely must create a new thread.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

17 Imports + 3 American QB's= 20 Americans on a 39 man roster. Thus a majority of the teams roster are Americans.

Doyle, with all due respect your arguement is completely flawed.

Ever since I ever saw you begin posting on this subject in other threads you have be cynically unwilling to distinguish between

1) a majority of the players CAN be foreign on a team (ie. every major sports team in Canada)

and

2) a majority of the players MUST be foreign on a team (what you say MLS will try to get away with).

Your above example doesn't prove anything because it says nothing to LIMITING THE NUMBER OF CANADIANS ON A TEAM but rather establishes maximums for foreigners. Every time someone explains this to you though you seem unable or unwilling to accept it however.

Look, I'm not totally in favour of MLS expansion into Canada and personally I think that the CSA would be totally negligent if they were to allow it without getting the MLS to accept Canadians as nationals across the entire league but I must say that your constant attempts to continually use an argument that is on its face ridiculous doesn't help your position.

The fact that you then go so far as to insult people who have explained to you why your argument is flawed is particularly unedifying.

Mike.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

If not, then provide the statutes under Canadian Law or any Canadian court case that forces a Canadian team to have a Canadian roster.

Again, this is not what they would have to provide. Rather all they would have to show is that it is illegal for someone to discriminate against a Canadian in Canada based on their status as a Canadian.

As far as I can tell there is absolutely nothing in Canadian law that prevents the Toronto Blue Jays from fielding all Americans. That is not the same thing as saying that Canadian law would allow them to turn away a qualified Canadian because they already have "too many Canadians."

This doesn't take advanced legal knowledge - even though some posters appear to have that - all it takes is a little thought.

Mike.

[DoyleG]

Insult? You should be talking to An Observer and MA about insults since they can't handle a difference of opinion. I've been holding back my emotions. Don't start off with this again.

A Canadian QB, James Bone, challenged the import rules of the CFL in 1980-81 as being discrimatory based on nationality (Bone has previously won damages from the Ti-Cats when a tribunal felt he had been passed over in favour of an inferior American player) Bone lost his case, stating that the team had the right to select the best players regardless of nationality, while the human rights tribunal ruled that there can be an overriding factor to keep such a system in place. This latter decision came as a group of American players pushed to strike down the import system as well along the same grounds.

Given that this case took place before the Charter, such an import restriction could easily fall under a charter challenge on either side. Americans stating that any MLS/MLSE agreement is discriminatory and from Canadians who fell current MLS rules restrict Canadian movement. The former would still allow Canadians to have a strong presence under the current rules. The latter would leave an MLS in no different of a position from Canadian USL Clubs. Similar challenges can be made using the Charter in relation to MLS clubs.

The MLS roster for next season looks to be set at 28 players as was stated by sounderfan in a post on this board.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5370&SearchTerms=MLS,Roster

- An owner would take the 7 International spots and fill them with Canadians outright.

- Green Card players like Onstad and Johnson(DeRo and Brilliant could be argued as possible GC holders) can be brought in.

- Players with duel citizenship who can play for Canada (ie. Greg Sutton) can be brought onto a team as well.

- For making the team serious, American players can be added to squad when they can prove they have Canadian roots. Regardless if they have been capped by the Americans.

Two better options exist for MLSE that would achive results.

1) Use the money that they would be spending in starting up an MLS team and put it towards a national league. Easier to attract sponsors and investors to a national league setup. Would give MLSE more respect on a national level compared to what they have now.

2) Buy the Lynx and run the club along the lines of the Toronto Rock. Make the team quite profesional while making sure it's on a more larger but better spent budget.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

It's in the "The sportscasters Toronto has to put up with..." thread along with the other Perkins article.

I didn't mean to come down on you, Rudi. I'm just frustrated by the current multitude of threads, as a moderator but also as a regular reader. To make it worse, the thread I'm talking about was originally in the MNT section, and I didn't want to confuse matters by moving it but had no choice as it became more and more about a Toronto MLS team. Furthermore, the thread title isn't very descriptive, but I didn't want to change it because such a change coupled with moving the thread to another section would be too disorienting. Such dilemmas occur all the time (as an organization freak, it drives me nuts). It would be helpful if the forum software was more flexible, but as that is out of our control all we can do is ask people to try to use existing threads instead of creating new ones, and use descriptive thread titles and put it in the appropriate section when you absolutely must create a new thread.

Understood. I didn't take any offence, as I know how hard it must be to try to create order amongst the unwashed masses that comprise The Voyageurs.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

1) Use the money that they would be spending in starting up an MLS team and put it towards a national league. Easier to attract sponsors and investors to a national league setup.

You actually think sponsors would put their money behind a high risk unproven product like a national league?? MLS is an established product and a much safer investment for any sponsor. If a national league was a better investment then Peddie would be looking at it. But Peddie actually has business sense and knows that MLS is an established product and a much safer investment

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by CanadianSoccerFan

You actually think sponsors would put their money behind a high risk unproven product like a national league?? MLS is an established product and a much safer investment for any sponsor. If a national league was a better investment then Peddie would be looking at it. But Peddie actually has business sense and knows that MLS is an established product and a much safer investment

MLS is still building in the US and isn't an established league. The league has no exposure here in Canada and would be going in with little or no knowledge about it.

The NBA worked because the product was being shown regualrly in Canada before the TO and Vancouver joined in. People knew what the NBA was when they finally arrived.

People wouldn't know what MLS is.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Pipe's too much. To eat and sleep full-time in Canada. Wow, makes us sound like were a third world developing nation. Maybe they be able to zhit full-time in Canada too. Just like you Kevan, trying to imply that the Toronto MLS team would contain the bulk of our national team. That pitch may sell well in Toronto, where they like to think that all their teams are Canada's teams, but the rest of Canada doesn't buy that zhit. What if Montreal or Vancouver ever ventured into the MLS, would they feature Canada's B and C teams? Is a Toronto MLS team going to match the salaries of Fulham, Deportivo, ect., and if so, what would the ticket prices amount to in a 25,000 seat facility? I believe that Rad and deGuz are already drafting-up their resignation letters. I doubt sponsorship revenue or PPV would cover these types of player's salaries. With Kevan Pipe at the helm of Canadian soccer, we will always be represented by team JETLAG. Only after we are eliminated will we use a full compliment of N.A. based players. Have I got a vision accepted in principle for you, Kevan.

Your irrational hatred of Kevan Pipe all too often overwhelms your common sense Robert, sometimes you spew absolute BS.

As for the dream of MLS teams in Montreal and Vancouver as well as Toronto and the non-Toronto teams being staffed with B and C nats - do you know anything about the MLS player distribution and team equity scheme, you think Canada somehow will be exempt such an arrangement?

[Gordon]

Unfortunately Gavin, the Jamie Bone Case blows your thesis right out of the water. Bone won damages from the Ti-cats because it was ruled that they did not give him a bona fide chance to demonstartate that he was qualified and discriminated against him in favour of an import. There is your legal "decision" that proves our point. You can't discriminate against a Canadian in favour of an alien worker. Or, in simple terms, you can't limit the number of canadians on a canadian based soccer team.

The second Bone decision was not a ruling that it was OK to discriminate against a canadian, rather it was a vindication that the import rule was not discriminatory because it did not limit the capacity of a qualified Canadian to seek employment. That is, the rule does not require a set number of imports it simply allows for it in the absence of a qualified Canadian. The import rules do not prevent a team from dressing 39 Canadians. It prevents them from dressing anymore that 17 (or 20 if you count the QB rule which merely exempts nationality from the QB equaltion and does not prevent a Canadian QB from being employed.)imports. This again is a legal "decision" that proves that you can not have rules that prevent qualified Canadian from working: which is what your thesis revolves around - the prevention of Canadians from working for MLS Toronto because of a league mandated number of alien employees. In simple terms, you can't prevent the employment of canadian soccer players by placing a quota on canadians.

The decision against the american players challenge of the import rule simply enforces the right of an employers to hire canadians over more qualified foreign workers. Which is why, every year, the Eskimos cut numerous americans who are better than the canadians, especially the back-ups, they keep. Basically, the decision allows for things like senior internationals in the MLS context. In simple terms, its ok to limit foreign soccer players on Canadian teams.

As Massive Attack pointed out, the CFL rules could not be applied to american franchises, because the rule restricted qualified americans from working. This was against California and US labour laws, just as a restriction against Canadians in Canada would be a violation of Ontario and Canadian law. This is a foreign precedent in a country with similar laws to canada. In that regard it is germaine.

Also, you are well aware that the clause you posted regarding entertainers and athletes refers only to visiting entertainers and athletes: Garth Brooks on tour, american althletes playing for american franchises against the Leafs etc. It does not apply to foreign ballerinas working for the national ballet, nor american players on the Edmonton Eskimos. They need work permits. We discussed this and it was part of the link I posted in another thread from a canadian immigration law firm. Since you choose not to trust a trained immigration lawyer over your own opinion, then perhaps you will trust the Edmonton Eskimos? Give them a call and ask if an import player needs a work permit.

Essentially Gavin, your own examples prove that MLS can not incorporate rules that discriminate against Canadians.

MLS can allow for americans to be counted as domestic only by changing the rules to allow for canadian to be counted as domestic in the US. Canadian law allows for such reciprocal agreements. MLS could also allow for the Toronto team to be unrestricted in terms of imports, and even keep the american content for its american franchises however, they can not dictate that these players be american, nor limit the number of Canadians. In essence, Toronto could buy 15 Brazilians. So, there is no legal way to discriminate against canadians in favour of americans. Case law, legal opinion, precendent, foreign decsions and precedent... well, everything, supports that MLS rule regarding domestic players is illegal unless those domestic players are Canadian.

Also, for your CFL examples, you need to understand that the import rule is defined by where one recieves their early football training. An "import" is not necessarily an american, although the fact that only two nations in the world play football in any meaningful way essentially gauranteed that imports will be americans. Nevertheless, if Morten Anderson ever decided to come up tot he CFL, he would be an import. So too would have Mark Rypien, despite his Canadian birthplace, because he recieved all of his football training in the US. Not too long ago, the Roughriders were looking at an american basketball player who had never played any HS or College football in the US and he would have not been an import under the CFL rules. So, basically, despite some of its twists, the CFL import rules are equivalent to MLS' restrictions on international players and not evidence that there is an "american content rule" in the CFL.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Sounds like you summed it up completely. It will be interesting to hear the retorts challenging the accuracy of your lengthy soliloguy.

Robert

[An Observer]

don't worry Gordon...people will just ignore your well reasoned arguments and make something up.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

2) Buy the Lynx and run the club along the lines of the Toronto Rock. Make the team quite profesional while making sure it's on a more larger but better spent budget.

So it's okay for the Leafs to purchase and operate a club in the the U.S. league because it's 2nd division, but a club in the 1st division would be evil? I'm sure there is logic somewhere in there. Yeah, I know, cause then they can grow the league in Canada and then Calgary and Edmonton and Saskatoon and Hamilton and Ottawa and Halifax and Flin Flon can all have teams in the Canadian Super United Soccer Association League.

And just to repeat everybody, MLS can NOT FORCE foreigners. It's like saying MLS can tell the Toronto team they must have 15 of it's 20 players from Norway. It is illegal.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Unfortunately Gavin, the Jamie Bone Case blows your thesis right out of the water. Bone won damages from the Ti-cats because it was ruled that they did not give him a bona fide chance to demonstartate that he was qualified and discriminated against him in favour of an import. There is your legal "decision" that proves our point. You can't discriminate against a Canadian in favour of an alien worker. Or, in simple terms, you can't limit the number of canadians on a canadian based soccer team.

This was a human rights tribunal case. Not a case decided in court.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The second Bone decision was not a ruling that it was OK to discriminate against a canadian, rather it was a vindication that the import rule was not discriminatory because it did not limit the capacity of a qualified Canadian to seek employment. That is, the rule does not require a set number of imports it simply allows for it in the absence of a qualified Canadian. The import rules do not prevent a team from dressing 39 Canadians. It prevents them from dressing anymore that 17 (or 20 if you count the QB rule which merely exempts nationality from the QB equaltion and does not prevent a Canadian QB from being employed.)imports. This again is a legal "decision" that proves that you can not have rules that prevent qualified Canadian from working: which is what your thesis revolves around - the prevention of Canadians from working for MLS Toronto because of a league mandated number of alien employees. In simple terms, you can't prevent the employment of canadian soccer players by placing a quota on canadians.

You didn't read my post correctly. The 2nd Bone argument was that the league was right to select the best players regardless of national origin. The quota was only upheld because of the American lawsuit.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The decision against the american players challenge of the import rule simply enforces the right of an employers to hire canadians over more qualified foreign workers. Which is why, every year, the Eskimos cut numerous americans who are better than the canadians, especially the back-ups, they keep. Basically, the decision allows for things like senior internationals in the MLS context. In simple terms, its ok to limit foreign soccer players on Canadian teams.

The decision was a political one. Such a decision would not stand in today's climate. Especially given that the CIS can provide enough talent to make the quota obsolete.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

As Massive Attack pointed out, the CFL rules could not be applied to american franchises, because the rule restricted qualified americans from working. This was against California and US labour laws, just as a restriction against Canadians in Canada would be a violation of Ontario and Canadian law. This is a foreign precedent in a country with similar laws to canada. In that regard it is germaine.

The definition of an 'American' in American law is anyone that holds citizenship, permanent residence, refugee status or asylym status. Candian law is seen to be much more narrow.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Also, you are well aware that the clause you posted regarding entertainers and athletes refers only to visiting entertainers and athletes: Garth Brooks on tour, american althletes playing for american franchises against the Leafs etc. It does not apply to foreign ballerinas working for the national ballet, nor american players on the Edmonton Eskimos. They need work permits. We discussed this and it was part of the link I posted in another thread from a canadian immigration law firm. Since you choose not to trust a trained immigration lawyer over your own opinion, then perhaps you will trust the Edmonton Eskimos? Give them a call and ask if an import player needs a work permit.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The CIC statement doesn't state beyond what athletes needs a permit and those who don't.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Essentially Gavin, your own examples prove that MLS can not incorporate rules that discriminate against Canadians.

MLS can allow for americans to be counted as domestic only by changing the rules to allow for canadian to be counted as domestic in the US. Canadian law allows for such reciprocal agreements. MLS could also allow for the Toronto team to be unrestricted in terms of imports, and even keep the american content for its american franchises however, they can not dictate that these players be american, nor limit the number of Canadians. In essence, Toronto could buy 15 Brazilians. So, there is no legal way to discriminate against canadians in favour of americans. Case law, legal opinion, precendent, foreign decsions and precedent... well, everything, supports that MLS rule regarding domestic players is illegal unless those domestic players are Canadian.

MLS is a different breed from any other sports league. Such an agreement would be challeneged.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Also, for your CFL examples, you need to understand that the import rule is defined by where one recieves their early football training. An "import" is not necessarily an american, although the fact that only two nations in the world play football in any meaningful way essentially gauranteed that imports will be americans. Nevertheless, if Morten Anderson ever decided to come up tot he CFL, he would be an import. So too would have Mark Rypien, despite his Canadian birthplace, because he recieved all of his football training in the US. Not too long ago, the Roughriders were looking at an american basketball player who had never played any HS or College football in the US and he would have not been an import under the CFL rules. So, basically, despite some of its twists, the CFL import rules are equivalent to MLS' restrictions on international players and not evidence that there is an "american content rule" in the CFL.

Everyone knows that the import rule is to block Americans. Such an import rule would not stand a Charter challenge with so many Canadian permanent residents living abroad now.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

So it's okay for the Leafs to purchase and operate a club in the the U.S. league because it's 2nd division, but a club in the 1st division would be evil? I'm sure there is logic somewhere in there. Yeah, I know, cause then they can grow the league in Canada and then Calgary and Edmonton and Saskatoon and Hamilton and Ottawa and Halifax and Flin Flon can all have teams in the Canadian Super United Soccer Association League.

People said it was stupid for MLSE to buy a team in a 2nd rate sports league (Hamilton-based Ontario Raiders) and yet it turned out well for them. They would the push for a national league in which an MLSE-owned Lynx would be a 1st division club.

Much cheaper and won't set Canada back like an MLS team would.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

People said it was stupid for MLSE to buy a team in a 2nd rate sports league (Hamilton-based Ontario Raiders) and yet it turned out well for them. They would the push for a national league in which an MLSE-owned Lynx would be a 1st division club.

Much cheaper and won't set Canada back like an MLS team would.

The Rock is owned by the Watters family and a bunch of current and former hockey players. MLSE has nothing to do with the organisation.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

The Rock is owned by the Watters family and a bunch of current and former hockey players. MLSE has nothing to do with the organisation.

MLSE gives them the arena a helps pay to get them on tv. They certainly have something to do with it.