Second Wheelock Article - Interview with Peddie

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

The parties involved:

1. MLS - they probably don't really care if it's all Canadians or not

2. CSA - they probably want mostly Canadians, but I doubt they would block MLS over this issue. Would it really hurt if even only 4 or 5 Canadians playing in Europe played here?

3. Toronto Owners - it would make absolutely NO sense for them to have an all Canadian roster. They would get hammered.

I don't necessarily agree a predominantly Canadian fielded team would get hammered. There are lots of Canadians to choose from at the US College level, in the USL and overseas. The challenge is, the MLS owns the players and decideds where they play.

The CSA would absolutely want an all-Canadian team, and even Frank Yallop has commented that it could basically be the national team, which makes you wonder if he would coach it.

My worry is that if Toronto gets stocked up with the best Canadians, would that hamper Montreal and Vancouver from one day joining MLS. As far as I'm concerned, both Montreal and Vancouver have proven their worthiness of being in MLS as much as Toronto, and any current team in MLS for that matter. The MLS should be looking for cities that currently support the game, not ones they hope will support the game.

I hope the Argos stay at skydome, and I bet the MLS would agree. They don't want to share stadiums with football. (They also prefer grass fields, but beggars can't be choosers)

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

One thing I forgot, I think the major issue which I haven't seen really brought up anywhere is the business structure.

Would the Leafs (or anybody in Toronto) purchase into MLS and then operate Toronto, or would they be a separate entity. I think this is not as simple as it would seem.

More the case being that they woudl operate the team in return for being an investor in the league. The would be responsible for teams profit or loss as well a share of any profit or loss from MLS itself.

The more likely case for an MLS team would be to use the current rules set by MLS and fill the foreign player spots with Canadians. They should also look at American domestic players who might be considered Canadians (regardless if they have been capped by the Americans) and have them fill up as many positions on a squad.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

More the case being that they woudl operate the team in return for being an investor in the league. The would be responsible for teams profit or loss as well a share of any profit or loss from MLS itself.

The more likely case for an MLS team would be to use the current rules set by MLS and fill the foreign player spots with Canadians. They should also look at American domestic players who might be considered Canadians (regardless if they have been capped by the Americans) and have them fill up as many positions on a squad.

Gavin, you and I have had this discussion before. I posted a links to a legal opinon and the Canadian immigration site. The American player as domestic is simply not legally possible. You poh poohed that and seem to feel that MLS has enough juice to change Canadian laws to suit their needs when a 1000 candian communities with a Doctor shortage can not. You and those postulating the discrimination against Canadian players need to do your homework. The onus is now on you to show how it would be legal to discriminate against Candians in Canda when the laws os law clearly forbid it. There is a way, but it requires the MLS to treat Canadian and American's equally across the MLS. The classification of american players as "domestic" in Canada without a corresponding change in the status of Canadian players in the US as domestic is simply not legal.

Do your homework Gavin. And if you do it correctly, you can join me and a few others in putting fears to rest rather than fanning flames that do not exist.

[matthew]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

The parties involved:

3. Toronto Owners - it would make absolutely NO sense for them to have an all Canadian roster. They would get hammered.

I will say this right now and may be made to look foolish, but I'll stand by it: I think the Montreal Impact are a better team than Chivas USA.

If you took the Impact (as an example since they have quite a few of the top Cdn-based Canadians), added a few Canadians that were available (say Mert and DeRo and heck where is Jason Bent?). Then throw in three decent SIs to go with Ze Roberto (and I'm not taking three Djourkaefs. A decent European and a couple of CONCACAF intls like Pando Ramirez quality or something) and I think a Canadian-based MLS team would be competitive and near the middle of the pack in their first year.

I previously thought that without a huge influx of Euro-based Canadians we wouldn't be able to compete, but I've changed my mind. I think if a lot of the best NA-based Canadians do play on this mythical team, I think there's no reason that team can't be competitive quickly.

cheers,

matthew

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Gavin, you and I have had this discussion before. I posted a links to a legal opinon and the Canadian immigration site. The American player as domestic is simply not legally possible. You poh poohed that and seem to feel that MLS has enough juice to change Canadian laws to suit their needs when a 1000 candian communities with a Doctor shortage can not. You and those postulating the discrimination against Canadian players need to do your homework. The onus is now on you to show how it would be legal to discriminate against Candians in Canda when the laws os law clearly forbid it. There is a way, but it requires the MLS to treat Canadian and American's equally across the MLS. The classification of american players as "domestic" in Canada without a corresponding change in the status of Canadian players in the US as domestic is simply not legal.

Do your homework Gavin. And if you do it correctly, you can join me and a few others in putting fears to rest rather than fanning flames that do not exist.

Where's the laws then that force a Canadian team to take on Canadian players?

Laws dealing with doctors or professional athletes aren't one in the same.

[L.T.]

DoyleG, smarten up - that isn't the same thing. One could argue that a team should be able to field the best players it could find, regardless of nationality, but that isn't the case here.

You can't mandate that a team has to have a minimum of xx foreigners, at the potential expense of a better qualified Canadian.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

You can't mandate that a team has to have a minimum of xx foreigners, at the potential expense of a better qualified Canadian.

Easier to argue that there are no enought qualified players than argue that there are more than enough qualified players.

[DoyleG]

A View from the All-Seater: MLS in Canada

il Consigliere, February 24, 2005

On February 17, Sean Wheelock of Fox Sports posted his weekly column. The column revolved around a city having everything needed to attract a MLS club. A new soccer stadium is being built, millionaire owners are in place, and the city hosts a huge soccer population. The city he described was Toronto.

I am still weighing up the positives and negatives of having MLS place a club in Canada. I can easily understand Sean's perspective of some Welsh clubs in the English leagues, and, since Canada has no top flight league, FIFA would no doubt allow a Canadian club to join MLS.

My biggest objection to the column was when Sean dove into the player topic. His position is that the Canadian club should be allowed to use Canadians as their main players, with non-Canadians being considered their foreign players. I could not disagree more with this thinking.

To elaborate on the example from Sean regarding the Welsh clubs in England. Do Cardiff City, Swansea, and Wrexham follow the league rules provided by the English league or the Welsh league? Since these clubs, although based in Wales, participate in league play in England, I have to believe they are bound to follow the laws provided by the league and the English FA.

With that in mind, why would we allow a club in Toronto to have their own rules regarding player status? Did we not just force CD Chivas USA to follow the same laws in regards to player classification that the other 11 clubs adhere to? This topic was one of the most debated in the whole Chivas process, but when all was said and done, the club was forced to fall in line with MLS laws.

If Toronto were to get a team, they too would have to adhere to MLS player policy. They can even use CD Chivas USA as a guide. Fill your 4 senior international slots with Canadian players, and acquire as many junior international slots to fill with younger Canadians. The remaining part of the roster would have to consist of Americans or foreign players with Green Cards. Speaking of green cards, this would be a second avenue for a Toronto club to take. If they can get some of their players to apply for and receive their green cards, they could place even more Canadian players on their squad (residency would be an issue, but with Toronto so close to the border, they can probably find a way around the system in regards to a permanent address for some of these players).

While the green card route would take a few years for Toronto to develop more of a Canadian squad, it is the proper way to go. If Toronto were allowed to follow the player guidelines proposed by Sean, then why would Chivas USA, or any other MLS club for that matter, have to follow laws from MLS? In my eyes, all clubs should follow the same rules or you would have to ask yourself: what is the purpose of having rules at all?

http://www.metrofanatic.com/mf/story.jsp?ID=2306

[L.T.]

Where do you find these guys?!? - Chivas is NOT the same thing, they are playing in the U.S.

That last paragraph is one of the stupidest ever published.

[Cheeta]

Looks like it's just some fans opinion sheet. And not very uninformed at all regarding Canadian/provincial labour law.

Dose bring up the Green Card issue and MLS' holding such players as being domestics. (Isn't this the way Onstad qualified as a domestic player in MLS?) I'm sure there are some University kids down south who could manage a Green Card, be considered domestics in MLS and not force clubs to use up an international slot on a Canadian.

And one last thing. There is no way in Hell a private enterprise (MLS) will be allowed to operate a franchise (team) which specificaly excludes Canadian labour (players) in any form. And most especially while operating in a venue financed almost entirely by the public purse.

Yeah. That's going to happen.

[matthew]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

A View from the All-Seater: MLS in Canada

il Consigliere, February 24, 2005

http://www.metrofanatic.com/mf/story.jsp?ID=2306

Good grief. Someone needs to tell this guy that Chivas USA is an American team based in Los Angeles and his argument about anything comparing the two is completely irrelevant.

cheers,

matthew

sorry LT didn't see you made same point.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

Where do you find these guys?!? - Chivas is NOT the same thing, they are playing in the U.S.

That last paragraph is one of the stupidest ever published.

quote:Originally posted by matthew

Good grief. Someone needs to tell this guy that Chivas USA is an American team based in Los Angeles and his argument about anything comparing the two is completely irrelevant.

cheers,

matthew

sorry LT didn't see you made same point

You guys missed the debate on this issue.

[Calgary Boomer]

I will say this right now and may be made to look foolish, but I'll stand by it: I think the Montreal Impact are a better team than Chivas USA.

I don't think that's foolish at all...the Impact have two things CHIVAS USA don't...history, and 2 championships. If Montreal played in MLS this season, they'd finish higher than CHIVAS.

I wonder what would happen if Toronto did get an MLS team. Would they be allowed to compete in the Lamar Hunt US Open cup?

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

I wonder what would happen if Toronto did get an MLS team. Would they be allowed to compete in the Lamar Hunt US Open cup?

I would hope not as that makes absolutely no sense IMHO. It's not like the current Canadian A-League teams compete in it. This is, among other reasons, why we need our own domestic open cup.

Mike.

[matthew]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

You guys missed the debate on this issue.

I don't think so.

il consigliere is arguing that Canada should not be 'allowed' to field an all-Canadian roster. That it must play by MLS rules and have a team primarily of Americans or green card holders. He cites Chivas USA as an example of how this can be done, while still using 'Mexican' players saying: "Did we not just force CD Chivas USA to follow the same laws in regards to player classification that the other 11 clubs adhere to??

The fact is that Chivas USA is not in fact a Mexican team. They may be owned by Mexicans, but they play in the US and therefore have to play by MLS rules because MLS rules correspond nicely with US labour laws. Had they been a team based in Mexico, as the Mythical Toronto FC would be a team based in Canada, then there might be a parallel. Plus if they were based in Mexico Chivas wouldn't have to play any Americans. Had it been any other Mexican team it wouldn't be an issue, but since Chivas prides itself on only playing Mexicans in the MFL, their desire to keep that tradition was the basis of the early concerns of American MLS fans.

If you can show me how it's legal to operate a business in a country and yet restrict the number of employees you can have from that country (and yes the front office staff, etc will all likely be Canadian, but I don't think that changes anything) then we can start to have this discussion. I think you could hire all foreigners if you wanted and you could find ones that were qualified, but you can't have a rule stating you aren't allowed to hire locals. That's a big difference. You're still put a ceiling on the number of Canadians who can play soccer for a Canadian team. And if you can't impose the MLS rules on limiting Canadians, then why would Mythical Toronto FC use a bunch of Americans?

il consigliere also says "To elaborate on the example from Sean regarding the Welsh clubs in England. Do Cardiff City, Swansea, and Wrexham follow the league rules provided by the English league or the Welsh league? Since these clubs, although based in Wales, participate in league play in England, I have to believe they are bound to follow the laws provided by the league and the English FA."

They follow the English league's rules, BUT those rules do not state that the Welsh teams have to field all English players, save four foreigners over 24 and a certain number younger than that. Teams in Wales are bound to the law of their country first and above all. The rules of the English FA come second. Nevermind that they're both part of the UK which may muddy the labour waters even more, I don't know. I assume its easier for a Welshman to get work visa (if they even need one) in England than it is for me to get one in the US.

If Mythical Toronto FC were to be owned by MLSE, but play in Detroit, then il consigliere's argument might be a little relevant, but as it stands it's a completely irrelevant parallel.

So yeah I think I got his point. Point noted. Totally irrelevant. Let's move on.

cheers,

matthew

[Andrew W]

In this article the writer attributes a statement to MLS commish Don Garber that a Toronto MLS franchise would use Canadian players as domestics.

MLS article

Here's a snippet.

The key to Toronto's proposed entry into the league is a 25,000-seat soccer stadium, slated to open in 2007 on the campus of York University.

MLS roster rules limit the number of foreign players who can be on a team. Garber said those rules would apply to a Toronto franchise, with the proviso that Canadians (rather than Americans) would be considered domestic players.

Both the Canadian Soccer Association and CONCACAF, soccer's governing body in North and Central America, would have to approve the location of a Canadian team in a U.S. pro league.

[Richard]

Makes sense and looks quite promising.

[ray]

From the Toronto Star Mar. 8, 2005. 01:00 AM:

Soccer pros eye York stadium

Owner of Leafs in talks with MLS

Lynx boss reacts with anger, disgust

ALLAN RYAN

SPORTS REPORTER

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment has no financial stake in the football/soccer stadium going in at York University for 2007, but it's still hoping to enter a team there.

Richard Peddie, president and CEO of the ownership/investment group, confirmed yesterday that MLSE has been talking with Major League Soccer (MLS) about locating an expansion franchise here for 2007.

While the acronyms are similar, Peddie agreed "cautiously optimistic" was a fair enough term to describe what he believes to be a fit in the works.

"We've done a fair amount of work on this," Peddie said. "Enough that we're going to keep looking at it."

The New York-based MLS launches its 10th season April 2 and, while both commissioner Don Garber and chief operating officer Mark Abbott were travelling and unavailable for comment yesterday, MLSE has met with each on several occasions and they were courtside for a Raptors game last month.

MLS, expanding from 10 teams to 12 this season (after contracting from 12 to 10 a few seasons back), assures on its website that future expansion — to as many as 18 or 20 teams by 2010 — remains a priority.

MLSE already owns the ACC, the NHL Maple Leafs, the NBA Raptors and the AHL team in St. John's that is moving here.

As Peddie explained in a recent interview on Foxsports.com, "Our board is not only interested in winning championships but in increasing enterprise value" and, in that regard, was "running out of runway in how to grow revenue."

"We have an objective to add facilities, to add teams," he said yesterday. "There's over 300,000 soccer players registered in Ontario. We think it's a sport of the future."

To be part of Major League Soccer's first venture outside the U.S., Peddie also has a vision of this team being large on Canadian content and hopefully attracting many Canadians now playing in Europe.

For that, there would have to be a flip-flopping of MLS regulations that now call for roughly 75 per cent American roster content — only one of the myriad of business details (currency exchange being another) which need to be worked out.

"We've been talking about the right made-for-Canada solution," Peddie said.

Peddie also stressed the need for a strong three-way partnership between MLSE, MLS and the Canadian Soccer Association, for which the stadium at York recently secured the 2007 World Youth Championship.

"The better we do growing soccer, the better the Canadian national team can become, the more people become interested in soccer," Peddie said. "It's a big circle."

If there's anybody left out of this loop, it would have to be the Toronto Lynx, one of three Canadian teams (Montreal, Vancouver) now operating in the 12-team first division of the United Soccer League.

"How about being stabbed in the back (by the CSA)," said Bruno Hartrell, chief financial officer for the Lynx, now drawing about 2,000 a game to Etobicoke's Centennial Stadium.

"We've been banking, waiting on this stadium — the one that's coming in at York — for 10 years," Hartrell said. "Cumulatively, we've put $4.5 million into carrying this team, $4.5 million into waiting, knowing that, one day, we were going to get this stadium.

"Along comes the CSA two years ago — on its own, unilaterally saying it was going to promote a Major League Soccer ownership group in Toronto.

"As if we needed that, right? As if soccer's doing so really well, we don't need one professional team, we need two teams in Toronto?

"We've tried to sell soccer tickets in this market for nine years and have a pretty good idea of who buys what and for what price. We're not missing anything, you know.

"I think any professional team — the Lynx or, let's call it, MLS, in the near future, meaning within the next five years, would be hard-pressed to draw more than 10,000 fans a game."

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by ray

From the Toronto Star Mar. 8, 2005. 01:00 AM:

Soccer pros eye York stadium

Owner of Leafs in talks with MLS

Lynx boss reacts with anger, disgust

ALLAN RYAN

SPORTS REPORTER

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment has no financial stake in the football/soccer stadium going in at York University for 2007, but it's still hoping to enter a team there.

Richard Peddie, president and CEO of the ownership/investment group, confirmed yesterday that MLSE has been talking with Major League Soccer (MLS) about locating an expansion franchise here for 2007.

While the acronyms are similar, Peddie agreed "cautiously optimistic" was a fair enough term to describe what he believes to be a fit in the works.

"We've done a fair amount of work on this," Peddie said. "Enough that we're going to keep looking at it."

The New York-based MLS launches its 10th season April 2 and, while both commissioner Don Garber and chief operating officer Mark Abbott were travelling and unavailable for comment yesterday, MLSE has met with each on several occasions and they were courtside for a Raptors game last month.

MLS, expanding from 10 teams to 12 this season (after contracting from 12 to 10 a few seasons back), assures on its website that future expansion — to as many as 18 or 20 teams by 2010 — remains a priority.

MLSE already owns the ACC, the NHL Maple Leafs, the NBA Raptors and the AHL team in St. John's that is moving here.

As Peddie explained in a recent interview on Foxsports.com, "Our board is not only interested in winning championships but in increasing enterprise value" and, in that regard, was "running out of runway in how to grow revenue."

"We have an objective to add facilities, to add teams," he said yesterday. "There's over 300,000 soccer players registered in Ontario. We think it's a sport of the future."

To be part of Major League Soccer's first venture outside the U.S., Peddie also has a vision of this team being large on Canadian content and hopefully attracting many Canadians now playing in Europe.

For that, there would have to be a flip-flopping of MLS regulations that now call for roughly 75 per cent American roster content — only one of the myriad of business details (currency exchange being another) which need to be worked out.

"We've been talking about the right made-for-Canada solution," Peddie said.

Peddie also stressed the need for a strong three-way partnership between MLSE, MLS and the Canadian Soccer Association, for which the stadium at York recently secured the 2007 World Youth Championship.

"The better we do growing soccer, the better the Canadian national team can become, the more people become interested in soccer," Peddie said. "It's a big circle."

If there's anybody left out of this loop, it would have to be the Toronto Lynx, one of three Canadian teams (Montreal, Vancouver) now operating in the 12-team first division of the United Soccer League.

"How about being stabbed in the back (by the CSA)," said Bruno Hartrell, chief financial officer for the Lynx, now drawing about 2,000 a game to Etobicoke's Centennial Stadium.

"We've been banking, waiting on this stadium — the one that's coming in at York — for 10 years," Hartrell said. "Cumulatively, we've put $4.5 million into carrying this team, $4.5 million into waiting, knowing that, one day, we were going to get this stadium.

"Along comes the CSA two years ago — on its own, unilaterally saying it was going to promote a Major League Soccer ownership group in Toronto.

"As if we needed that, right? As if soccer's doing so really well, we don't need one professional team, we need two teams in Toronto?

"We've tried to sell soccer tickets in this market for nine years and have a pretty good idea of who buys what and for what price. We're not missing anything, you know.

"I think any professional team — the Lynx or, let's call it, MLS, in the near future, meaning within the next five years, would be hard-pressed to draw more than 10,000 fans a game."

The DCSA (Double-Crossing Soccer Association) is more interested in supporting an American product then a domestic one. How many Canadian soccer players on the Lynx roster will become unemployed if this senario plays out the way Kevan Pipe would like it to? And how many potential Canadian soccer players would find employment on a Toronto based MLS team if that ever materializes? Would the Toronto MLS franchise be a corporate division of the MLS, or would it be incorporated as a new Canadian businesss? If the team does incorporate as a new Canadian company, then the MLS could not dictate corporate policies pertaining to the nationality of its employees or in what currency they would be paid. However, if the Toronto based franchise is to be a division of the MLS, I'd be inclined to reason that the number of Canadians on the Toronto MLS team would not exceed the number of Canadians on the Raptors' roster, which was pretty much the same number that were on the Grizzly's roster when they played in Vancouver. The question remains, does the DCSA support an MLS team which might field only one Canadian player, at the expense of almost surely killing off an established club like the Lynx, who have a long and established track record of developing many fine young Canadian soccer talents? Unless MLS will guarantee in writing that a Toronto based MLS franchise can field an unlimited amount of Canadian soccer players, why would the CSA court Toronto soccer fans to pay the wages of American players in US dollars. If MLS has no problem with an all Canadian team, why not put it in writing. We can't take these Americans at their word. Remember those weapons of mass destruction?[]

[Free kick]

quote:The DCSA (Double-Crossing Soccer Association) is more interested in supporting an American product then a domestic one.

Wow. Thats the first time I have ever heard soccer referred to as an "American Product".

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

The question remains, does the DCSA support an MLS team which might field only one Canadian player, at the expense of almost surely killing off an established club like the Lynx, who have a long and established track record of developing many fine young Canadian soccer talents?

I was not aware that the Lynx had so many fans accross the country. Its incredible all the nice things that people have been saying about the Lynx more and more as the MLS talks progess. We never used to read similar accolades here before the MLS talks started. Can we count on seeing you at the home opener?

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Unless MLS will guarantee in writing that a Toronto based MLS franchise can field an unlimited amount of Canadian soccer players, why would the CSA court Toronto soccer fans to pay the wages of American players in US dollars. If MLS has no problem with an all Canadian team, why not put it in writing. We can't take these Americans at their word. Remember those weapons of mass destruction?[]

Your not really serious are you?

[Cheeta]

No matter what you think of this whole thing, good to finaly hear from Hartrell.

Give 'em Hell, Bruno. Tell it like it is.

MLSE? CSA? Fu'k. Neither has a dime in the new stadium and one helped sink the CNE and/or Varsity sites. Wonderful.

[Calgary Boomer]

One thing strikes me about these latest articles; the impact of MLS expansion on the USL.

-What if Toronto, Rochester, Portland and Seattle all go MLS like they've been rumoured to? (I find it humourous that the MLS is talking about expanding by another 8 teams before 2010, when they barely managed to scrape 2 new teams together for this season.)

-That's why I think MLS is going to raid the USL of its established teams (Rochester, Portland, Seattle) because they have tradition built in, and the stadiums to boot.

-If that happens, would Vancouver and Montreal be forced to apply for MLS membership simply beause their biggest (and closest) rivals will be gone?

Or, might this be the motivation for Saputo, Kerfoot, and Hartrell to form the nucleous of an all Canadian League?

Interesting 5 years ahead, what?

[WilfPTheReal99]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

No matter what you think of this whole thing, good to finaly hear from Hartrell.

Give 'em Hell, Bruno. Tell it like it is.

MLSE? CSA? Fu'k. Neither has a dime in the new stadium and one helped sink the CNE and/or Varsity sites. Wonderful.

I guess he was just too busy signing obscure South Americans and forcing the coach to play them to pass comment.

[WilfPTheReal99]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

How many Canadian soccer players on the Lynx roster will become unemployed if this senario plays out the way Kevan Pipe would like it to?

Looking at the Lynx roster, there isnt a single player to lose their job, so that is not worth worrying about.