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Second Wheelock Article - Interview with Peddie


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quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I await the usual suspects to rip Wheelock apart for not doing his 'homework', and tell us that MLSE definitely has no more interest in MLS after the failed Varsity Stadium deal.

Well, if those usual suspects were to do so, they would be foolish as RP is quoted as saying, in direct reference to the York stadium plans "What the CSA (Canadian Soccer Association) and the (Canadian Football League's Toronto) Argonauts are creating at York University is a very intimate building. The seats are going to be six meters from the playing field. We think it will be a wonderful soccer building."

It's nice to know that the Peddie interview was relatively recent.

db

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quote:Originally posted by Richard

So you think having a Toronto based MLS team would not be good for Canadian soccer?

MLSE has not made any commitments to anybody about employing Canadian players. They have suggested nothing more than that it would be a grand opportunity for Canadian players. Depending upon your point of view most marketing could be regarded as a snow job Robert. When was the last time you believed everything any advertiser told you? MLSE are very good at what they do, running a sports entertainment business profitably.

Anyway, even if the club starts with only a couple of token Canadians, just think what a motivation that would be to up and coming players, to be good enough to crack the team! Right now I can't think of anything that would be better for raising the profile of Canadian soccer and presenting an opportunity for players for world class soccer at home. The USL Division One Candian teams would be a superb feeder system for such a club.

But Richard, it can't start with "token" Canadians. The side will have to fulfill the mandatory league requirements regarding citizenship of players. MLS allows only three "international" players on an active roster. It is safe to assume that a Canadian based team will live by the same rules.

With the MLS active roster consisting of 20 players, 17 Canadians are going to find themselves playing soccer for a living wage in their home country.

Isn't that awful! ;)

db

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

The only question is whether US players would count as internationals or domestics - will they go back to the old NASL rule (not counting North Americans as foreigners for any team, regardless of whether they are located in the US or Canada), or try a a different one?

I believe they may try a rule whereby Americans are counted as domestics on the potential Toronto franchise's roster. This would ensure that Toronto's participation in the draft would be relevant. Whether they'd extend the same courtesy to Canadians for the rest of the league's rosters is unknown (and unlikely IMHO).

How other issues such as allocations and discovery picks would be handled with a Canadian team is another unknown.

What I do know is that if this team materializes for 2007 you are looking at good college players (and current U-20 players) like Riley O'Neill (he'd be a senior for 06-07 season), Michael D'Agostino (junior), Josh Wagenaar (senior) and Tyler Rosenlund (a junior) being potentially available for the draft (underclassmen can declare). These are the types of players who may form the Canadian backbone of a Toronto team should it somehow happen. Maybe some of them will be in Europe or MLS before this, but I think many players of this ilk would opt for an MLS team in Canada just as readily as they'd try Europe, especially should UEFA's plan of more home-grown players in European leagues get a (albiet unlikely) nod of approval.

Anyways just thinking aloud. Don't really know how it may pan out or if it will pan out at all.

Cheers.

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quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

But Richard, it can't start with "token" Canadians. The side will have to fulfill the mandatory league requirements regarding citizenship of players. MLS allows only three "international" players on an active roster. It is safe to assume that a Canadian based team will live by the same rules.

With the MLS active roster consisting of 20 players, 17 Canadians are going to find themselves playing soccer for a living wage in their home country.

Isn't that awful! ;)

db

I think the rules this year are 18 active roster players and 10 developmental slots with four senior internationals (over 25s) and three junior internationals (under 25s). I believe the two expansion teams this year get more in the first couple of years and then have to comply with the regular rule.

So counting reserve team players, eventually you'd be looking at seven international players and 21 Canadian or Canadian/American players (depending on how they handle the domestic/import issue with regards to American players).

Of course, this is all depending on whether or not a team even materializes in the first place.

Cheers.

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quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

But Richard, it can't start with "token" Canadians. The side will have to fulfill the mandatory league requirements regarding citizenship of players. MLS allows only three "international" players on an active roster. It is safe to assume that a Canadian based team will live by the same rules.

With the MLS active roster consisting of 20 players, 17 Canadians are going to find themselves playing soccer for a living wage in their home country.

Isn't that awful! ;)

db

Questions. Is DDR (if he hasn't moved to Europe yet) considered as one of these three "internationals" players? If so, how many Canadians "internationals" are there with a current MLS contract? If the MLS makes some sort of concession to accommodate a Canadian franchise, wouldn't that be setting a precedent for a Mexican club or the club of any other country which may eventually get a MLS franchise?

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quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

But Richard, it can't start with "token" Canadians. The side will have to fulfill the mandatory league requirements regarding citizenship of players. MLS allows only three "international" players on an active roster. It is safe to assume that a Canadian based team will live by the same rules.

With the MLS active roster consisting of 20 players, 17 Canadians are going to find themselves playing soccer for a living wage in their home country.

Isn't that awful! ;)

db

I was assuming a worst case scenario from a Canadian point of view and even that in my opinion would serve Canadian soccer well. None of us knows what if any adjustments might be made by MLS to accommodate a 'foreign' team in the MLS. We can but speculate.
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quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

I agree although something with a truly Canadian inference would be desirable if Blizzard couldn't happen.

Even "Toronto Maple Leafs" would work for me although we do already have two teams by that name.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

They would probably hold a contest to chose a name.Isn't that where the Raptors came from.

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At the end of the day, there are only really two options for the MLS and any Canadian side(s) that join with respect to the restrictions on the roster. Canadian immigration laws would never allow any roster restrictions that favour American players over Canadians. They would allow a situation that exists for example for the NHL, NBA, or MLB (essentially the best players regardless of nationality can play) but this is not something the MLS would consider. They would allow a situtation akin to the CFL whereby a certain number of roster positions were reserved for Canadians and the rest for "imports" and this may fit very well with the current MLS rules but with replacing the American positions on the side with Canadians. However, my preference is that the MLS becomes like the NASL and simply opens the league by changing the restriction from American to North American players. That way, more Canadians would play in the league than now as most of the roster spots in Toronto would be filled by Canadians and there would alot more employed directly around the league. Ultimately, whether initially or over time, this would become the situation as otherwise the Toronto team would be at either an advantage (larger relative player pool to draw from) and a disadvantage (difficult to trade players with other sides) at the same time.

Also, it seems clear that the MLSE does favour Canadian content as they explicitly ruled out buying an existing franchise for this very reason.

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quote:Originally posted by Robert

Questions. Is DDR (if he hasn't moved to Europe yet) considered as one of these three "internationals" players? If so, how many Canadians "internationals" are there with a current MLS contract? If the MLS makes some sort of concession to accommodate a Canadian franchise, wouldn't that be setting a precedent for a Mexican club or the club of any other country which may eventually get a MLS franchise?

By internationals they mean if a non-domestic player like Paolo Maldini came and played for said Toronto team. MLS would not restrict the number of Canadian "internationals" on the side. At times last year San Jose fielded four or five American internationals. International simply refers to non-domestic player not players capped by the domestic national team.

As far as a potential Toronto franchise opening it up to a Mexican side, I doubt FIFA would allow that border crossing due to the strength of the Mexican League. Yes, the precedent may be there, but I doubt any existing teams would be able to or want to jump ship and I also think an expansion team in Mexico would have a tough time establishing itself competing for a marketplace against the established clubs. I do think you may see more Mexican-owned teams in MLS as the clubs look into tapping the huge ex-pat market in the US that currently doesn't support MLS.

As for DeRo, if he's contracted to San Jose and under contract he wouldn't necessarily go to Toronto unless the team released him or exposed him in an expansion draft. I don't think MLS will necessarily facilitate the transfer of any Canadians already under contract in the league to a Toronto side.

Of course this is all opinion and speculation on my part but it seems like reasonable answers to your questions.

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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

As for DeRo, if he's contracted to San Jose and under contract he wouldn't necessarily go to Toronto unless the team released him or exposed him in an expansion draft.

Just to clarify, DeRo is not under contract with San Jose, which is why Blackburn could have taken him on outside the window. However, he is not as I understand it a "free-agent" that could now play for another MLS team without obtaining or buying approval from San Jose, as I think San Jose still would own his rights as per the usual NAmn sports regime.

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quote:However, my preference is that the MLS becomes like the NASL and simply opens the league by changing the restriction from American to North American players. That way, more Canadians would play in the league than now as most of the roster spots in Toronto would be filled by Canadians and there would alot more employed directly around the league. Ultimately, whether initially or over time, this would become the situation as otherwise the Toronto team would be at either an advantage (larger relative player pool to draw from) and a disadvantage (difficult to trade players with other sides) at the same time.

Also, it seems clear that the MLSE does favour Canadian content as they explicitly ruled out buying an existing franchise for this very reason.

Next question. What defines a North American player? 1) Canada and the U.S.? 2) NAFTA = Canada, the U.S. and Mexico? 3) CONCACAF? If Mexicans were allocated North American status, even without a team in Mexico, there would be many more Mexicans, those that just barely fail to make the grade in Mexico, entering the MLS. I don't think the Americans would buy into that one. What is Carlos Ruiz's status with the Galaxy, is he a North American player too? This has "the Bosman case" written all over it.

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quote:Originally posted by Robert

Next question. What defines a North American player? 1) Canada and the U.S.? 2) NAFTA = Canada, the U.S. and Mexico? 3) CONCACAF? If Mexicans were allocated North American status, even without a team in Mexico, there would be many more Mexicans, those that just barely fail to make the grade in Mexico, entering the MLS. I don't think the Americans would buy into that one. What is Carlos Ruiz's status with the Galaxy, is he a North American player too? This has "the Bosman case" written all over it.

Nope re: NAFTA and "Bosman". There is no free movement of labour or anything equivalent to the EU agreement in NAFTA. The League will have to define "domestic" and "international" in such a way as to not violate the labour laws of the nation it exists in. Thus, there is no legal way - barring a change in statute - for MLS to discriminate against Canadians in Canada by treating them as international and americans as domestic. Additionally, in order to have both american and canadian players count as domestic in Canada, would require that the same rules apply for the US franchises. Thus, the only way an american would not count as an international player in Toronto would be if a Canadian player did not count as an international player in Columbus.

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Um, a question for you guys. I know that the FIFA WYC '07 was a primary reason for this thing being built...but did the CSA put ANY money into the construction of this thing whatsoever? I'm looking at the financials of the deal and it doesn't look like the CSA contributed financially at all. That's gonna be kind of a detriment to an MLS team getting prime scheduling, concessions revenues, parking revenues, etc. etc.

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quote:Originally posted by Sempuukyaku

Um, a question for you guys. I know that the FIFA WYC '07 was a primary reason for this thing being built...but did the CSA put ANY money into the construction of this thing whatsoever? I'm looking at the financials of the deal and it doesn't look like the CSA contributed financially at all. That's gonna be kind of a detriment to an MLS team getting prime scheduling, concessions revenues, parking revenues, etc. etc.

You are right, the CSA has and will not put any money into this (besides minimal consultation costs). The actual agreement between the various parties (York Univ. , Argonauts, CSA, Federal Government, whoever else) has not been publicaly released, so there are a lot of speculation as to the details of the "deal". Obviously with the Argos putting up a huge share of the money, there are going to have to be some terms making them primary leasees of the York site, including the things you mentioned.This would have to be a big concern of MLSE, even if not mentioned fully in Wheelock's article.

Apart from the MLSE, there may be other possibilities:

1. The Argonauts could move to get an MLS franchise. The two owners are not mega-rich like the MLSE, so there may be some concerns amongst the MLS mandarins about teir financial stability. It would be a better fit for the York stadium tho.

2. Rogers, owners of the baseball Blue Jays and the recent fire-sale purchasers of the Skydome (as well as the Sportsnet Channels), may even go for the MLS franchise, even tho baseball is probably the closest competitior for soccer in the TO area. The reason is that, especially if the Argos move, Rogers will have a huge facility which they could fill during the off-season or Jays away campaigns (which could easily be coordinated). Skydome have just purchased interlocking FieldTurf to be installed before the opener in April, which would easily be trasnfigured (without permanent lines) for football and soccer. Rogers, a stable financial empire, has not expressed interest like the Argos have, but it makes sense. That would suck for the viability of the York site and would not be such a great atmosphere to watch soccer, but there is that possiblity.

3. Not wanting to be an alarmist, but there has been word that Rogers has been talking to the Argos about the CFL team now staying at Skydome with the bringing-in of the interlocking FieldTurf, and a better deal about rent, now that Rogers are the tenants. This would mean that the Argos may have to find a way out of the agreeemnt with York they have signed, but there may be all sorts of things like performance clauses that could give them an out. That would really suck big time for Canadian soccer and York. The scenarios from such a backing are multi-fold, but would not necessarily mean the death of Canada 2007 WYC if the FIFA would be happy with the matches in any available Skydome (unlikely with the Jays schedule). Again, other than reports of the Argos and Rogers talking, there is no basis for fearing this so far. In terms of the MLS, this could mean a lot of things.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

To those who think that an MLS team will be filled with Canadians:

Can you prove a legal pre-text that would force an American league to accept a squad with Canadian players?

Do you remember what happened when the CFL expanded to the US? The American teams were fully stocked with American players, because the Canadian import rule could not be used in the U.S. I don't know where you're going with this legal b.s.

Also, we could simply look at the USL (or A-League) with Canadian and American teams. Why should the MLS be any different?

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

To those who think that an MLS team will be filled with Canadians:

Can you prove a legal pre-text that would force an American league to accept a squad with Canadian players?

You make a valid point. You don't conduct business without getting it in writing. Just ask the Reichman brother. The British P.M. promised to build a public transit line to their Olympia/Yorke development. They took the British P.M. at her word, nothing in writing. How many billions did that cost? The MLS alluding to the fact that Toronto would be a largely canadian team, means jack zhit in a dispute taken to a court of law. The CFL expanding to the US, is not the same thing as the MLS expanding into Canada. Canada might need the States to operate a professional sports product, but the States sure as zhit doesn't need Canada to do the same. Anyone who believes differebt is a dreamer or a crook. ?

"Also, we could simply look at the USL (or A-League) with Canadian and American teams. Why should the MLS be any different?" Another foolish assumption.

When you assume, you make an ASS(of)U(and)ME.

Duhh, well the last time they did![B)][B)][B)]

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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't believe MLS could put a franchise in Toronto without CSA/FIFA approval. MLSE and MLS can agree to anything they like, but if the CSA does not approve of the setup in terms of Canadian content they can kibosh the whole deal with the help of FIFA. I don't think MLS would have any intention of operating in Canada without the governing body's approval.

That being said, everything I've read on the situation (usually provided in links here or on BigSoccer) has indicated that both the CSA and MLSE expect there to be strong Canadian content should they land a franchise in MLS.

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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

I don't think MLS would have any intention of operating in Canada without the governing body's approval.

Wonder why that thought didn't occur to the CPSL with regard to the OSA? Same thing, just at a lower level.
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The parties involved:

1. MLS - they probably don't really care if it's all Canadians or not

2. CSA - they probably want mostly Canadians, but I doubt they would block MLS over this issue. Would it really hurt if even only 4 or 5 Canadians playing in Europe played here?

3. Toronto Owners - it would make absolutely NO sense for them to have an all Canadian roster. They would get hammered.

Ideally, MLS would count Canadians as non-imports so it would open up roster spots for Canadians on US MLS teams. The only "danger" with that might be the Mexicans might ask for the same, although completely different, but something MLS would have to consider.

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I think a Canada based MLS team would open a can of worms for the MLS and they know it. Moving from a USA-centric operation to a continental league will be a significant change in philosophy. Very careful thought will be given to the implications of any rule changes considered as part of any such expansion. I would not hold my breath in the hopes of seeing a Canada based MLS team any time soon, much as I might like to see one or more.

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One thing I forgot, I think the major issue which I haven't seen really brought up anywhere is the business structure.

Would the Leafs (or anybody in Toronto) purchase into MLS and then operate Toronto, or would they be a separate entity. I think this is not as simple as it would seem.

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