CSA wants to stop Legends of Soccer

[Massive Attack]

Yellow carded

National soccer body won't give Legends a free kick

By DARREN FRIESEN -- Calgary Sun

A local exhibition soccer match has been shown a yellow card by the Canadian Soccer Association.

Officials with soccer's national governing body say next week's Legends of Soccer exhibition event at the Saddledome needs to be sanctioned and that local players who participate risk being suspended from their CSA leagues.

Event organizer Howard Silver is outraged and thinks the CSA is way offside.

"We're going ahead with the event anyway," Silver said yesterday.

"The advice from our lawyers is that these guys are overstepping their boundaries."

The Jan. 23 tournament is privately funded and will showcase Liverpool and Manchester United masters teams plus two local select squads. The event was planned as a fundraiser for local soccer groups, Silver said.

"What the (CSA) has done is stepped in and demanded the money now go to Ottawa and not stay in the local community," he said. "To me, that just smells of a money grab."

Any event sanctioned by the CSA is required to return 5.5% of its gross earnings to the national governing body in Ottawa, plus give another 2.5% to the Alberta Soccer Association.

Silver insists there's nothing in the CSA rules that says his event must be sanctioned.

"We don't believe this is a sanctionable soccer tournament because obviously we've got pretty abbreviated, silly rules," said Silver. "We're not using official nets and we're not playing on a field. It's just a soccer exhibition."

That doesn't matter, says CSA CEO Kevan Pipe.

"Any organization in Canada that wishes to stage matches must follow our rules and regulations," Pipe said from Ottawa yesterday. "It's just standard operating procedure."

According to Silver, CSA officials only stepped in when they heard how well the event was selling.

About 6,000 tickets have been sold and promoters are expecting more than 10,000 people to be on hand to watch such retired Euro soccer stars as Phil Neal, Chris Waddle, Vivian Anderson and Frank Stapleton.

Vern Gerhardt, executive director of the ASA, denied the event recently came to their attention.

"We've been in touch with Mr. Silver for quite some time now," said Gerhardt. "This process has been ongoing and we've contacted him about sanctioning this event many times."

Gerhardt said he is thrilled the event is coming to Calgary and thinks it's a great idea to raise some funds for the youth and adult programs in this province.

He added the ASA has agreed to give any money earned back to the Calgary Soccer Association.

"Of course, we want this event to happen. It will be great fun for everyone involved," said Gerhardt.

"What's at dispute is that we have rules as an association and the CSA, which we are part of, feels this falls under their jurisdiction."

Silver maintains, as of yesterday, he hadn't seen documentation that would require the event to be sanctioned.

But Pipe said the English Football Association "confirmed that this organization was indeed under their jurisdiction.

"They advised us in writing that in order for a team to compete in Canada, they would have to, like any other team in England, need to receive permission from their governing body and ours to play in this country."

Gerhardt said local players have been informed by letter they will face punishment if they participate in a non-sanctioned event.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/01/14/898458.html

[Silvio]

Organizers & CSA clash over fee for Calgary, Toronto old-timer events

By Neil Davidson

Canadian Press

TORONTO (CP) — The promoter of an indoor old-timers’ soccer event has accused the Canadian Soccer Association of a “money grab” by demanding a cut of the proceeds from Legends of Soccer tournaments in Calgary and Toronto.

The CSA, in turn, says the request for eight per cent of the gross gate receipts has been in its constitution for decades, is standard operating procedure for it as the sanctioning body of soccer, and is not out of whack with other governing bodies.

“We take the position, as FIFA takes the position, that all forms of the game are under the jurisdiction of the national body,” Kevan Pipe, COO of the Canadian Soccer Association, said Friday from Ottawa.

Legends organizer Howard Silver disagreed.

“I’d call it a money grab,” Silver said in a conference call from Calgary. “Especially since I don’t know of any business deal where someone asks for a cheque for $30,000, $40,000 or $50,000 (and) refuses to meet with you. It’s just outrageous.”

Lawyers for Silver argue CSA rules do no apply because “the Legends is not a provincial/territorial association, district association, league or club.” They maintain the Legends is a “one-day entertainment event designed to showcase the athletic prowess of various soccer players.”

The Legends of Soccer features old-timer teams from Manchester United and Liverpool, along with two local sides. They will play Jan. 22 in Toronto at Air Canada Centre and Jan. 23 in Calgary at the Saddledome.

Silver, who expects to draw 10,000 to 12,000 in both cities, said the events will go ahead as scheduled — with no payment going to the CSA.

The touring Legends include Vivian Anderson, Ronnie Whelan, Jan Molby and Lee Sharpe. The indoor old-timers’ version of the game is popular in Britain, where a 35-and-over league was formed in 1998 and there are now 32 teams.

The Canadian events will feature 16-minute matches. Each side has 12 players with six on the pitch at one time.

Pipe said his association has been in discussion with the Legends promoters since the beginning of December.

“They have had dozens of communications both from us and from the provincial body,” he said.

“I’m perplexed,” he added. “They know what the rules are.”

Silver fears that the Alberta Soccer Association may suspend local players involved in his event.

“The players are really upset and concerned about this.”

Pipe declined to say what might happen if the organizers refuse, other to say that the association can call for a disciplinary committee to investigate the matter.

“These rules and regulations have been in our rules for decades, quite frankly,” Pipe said. “They’re public, they’re on our website and we simply direct our provincial associations to implement those rules and regulations whenever those events are taking place. ... These rules apply to everybody.”

CSA rules, in the case of an exhibition game involving a foreign professional team call for 51/2 per cent of the gross gate receipts to go to the CSA — two per cent of which goes to CONCACAF — and 21/2 per cent goes to the provincial association.

“So we’re talking really small dollars in the big scheme of things ... these are operational fees,” Pipe said, adding the U.S. has a similar fee structure — nine per cent as opposed to the Canadian eight.

The rules also call for organizers to request permission in writing from the Canadian association, with visiting foreign teams also needing permission to play from their own national body.

Canadians set to play the legends include Paul James, Paul Kitson, Hector Marinaro Jr., Lyndon Hooper, Tom Kouzmanis and Carmine Isacco (international team) and Eddy Berdusco, Paolo Ceccarelli, Tony Tavares and Willy Giummarra (Italian-Portuguese team).

[DJT]

We've seen this before, with the ChampionsWorld Series. I don't care about either event, but I think the CSA is being ridiculous. They should be putting the time and effort into helping soccer in Canada, not worrying about stuff like this.

[beachesl]

On the other hand, we criticize the CSA (rightly) for not being serious enough about fulfilling their mandate like other Associations around rthe world. If the FA of England get their share, then why not the CSA? Silver should know the rules and not try to rile up the Sun-reading, in-pub-with-crossed-arms-and-scowling, little-Britain types that don't care about the CSA anyway. Silver's attitude is that we in the colonies should be grateful, and don't bother us with the details.

[The Ref]

The problem as I see it is not the matter of the money itself, but rather the fact that everybody hate the guts of the CSA. So when the CSA, a.k.a. Kevin Pipe, throws their weight around people get very upset. Pipe claims that their sharing-clause has been in their rules for years on end. That Mr. Pipe is no excuse, on the contrary it is a proof that your organization is archaic with century old rules, and that you are insecure in your position. I am pleased that you are reading the writing on the wall. See ya dude.

[Moosehead]

Is Pipe still the Ceo of the CSA? I thought he would have been replaced by now given the numerous failed wcq campaigns.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

the fact that everybody hate the guts of the CSA.

Speak for yourself.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Moosehead

Is Pipe still the Ceo of the CSA? I thought he would have been replaced by now given the numerous failed wcq campaigns.

This is Canada. Failure is rewarded more than success.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

On the other hand, we criticize the CSA (rightly) for not being serious enough about fulfilling their mandate like other Associations around rthe world. If the FA of England get their share, then why not the CSA? Silver should know the rules and not try to rile up the Sun-reading, in-pub-with-crossed-arms-and-scowling, little-Britain types that don't care about the CSA anyway. Silver's attitude is that we in the colonies should be grateful, and don't bother us with the details.

I think that we are forgetting something. The CSA needs funds. We complain and complain about the CSA short changing this program or that program. We bitch and whine about why they aren't doing this and aren't doing that.

Did the organizers of last year's matches at the Skydome bitch about the CSA getting their fee? No. Not a peep.

I think that it is the difference between a major league organization and a two-bit organization.

They know the rules. Matches of this type have to be sanctioned by the CSA. If, what Kevan Pipe says about 9% in the USA is true, then we have very solid ground to stand on.

Soccer is a poor sport in this country and funding is needed. It isn't major so these guys should shut up, pay the sanctioning fee, and go play their games.

db

[Grizzly]

Seems a little suspicious to me that an organizating claiming to be putting on a big event to fund non-profit minor soccer is complaining so much about having to pay a standard fee to two organizations (CSA and ASA) whose mandate is to promote minor soccer on a non-profit basis.

An even more interesting issue than the CSA fee is why 10000 to 12000 people are willing to pay to attend a match of retired Premiership players playing indoor soccer when neither city is able to get 3000 out to watch A-league soccer. This says something about why soccer is in such a sorry state in this country. The A-league may not be the leading soccer league in the world but the soccer being offered is still probably twice the level as will be played in this old-timers game. I can understand why a one-off exhibition match between two big European teams can outdraw the A-league significantly but an old-timers match? This game would not interest me in the slightest.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

I think that we are forgetting something. The CSA needs funds. We complain and complain about the CSA short changing this program or that program. We bitch and whine about why they aren't doing this and aren't doing that.

Did the organizers of last year's matches at the Skydome bitch about the CSA getting their fee? No. Not a peep.

I think that it is the difference between a major league organization and a two-bit organization.

They know the rules. Matches of this type have to be sanctioned by the CSA. If, what Kevan Pipe says about 9% in the USA is true, then we have very solid ground to stand on.

Soccer is a poor sport in this country and funding is needed. It isn't major so these guys should shut up, pay the sanctioning fee, and go play their games.

db

Dear Sir,

Your article "Tourney defies CSA" by Cameron Maxwell aroused my strong disdain of the CSA in general and Chief Operating Officer Kevan Pipe in particular. Chief Pipe has run the CSA since 1986 and soccer in Canada has been struggled ever since. Our disappointments have been well documented and too numerous to list here. During this administration, millions of Canadian soccer dollars have been redirected towards the personal comfort of Chief Pipe and his cronies. A few of the more blatant examples include the purchase of the building at 237 Metcalfe Street in Ottawa. The former residence of Canadian Prime Minister John Thompson was purchased by the CSA in 1996 from Agra Industries of Calgary, for a disclosed price of $825,000 to house Chief Pipe's offices. At the last World Youth Championship in the United Arab Emirates in 2003, the CSA's National Teams Administrator, Earl Cochrane, stayed at the palatial Sheraton Deira Hotel in Dubai. His suite, #402, fetches a modest $750(Can) per night. (This can be confirmed on the CSA web site at www.canadasoccer.com or directly from page one of, media notes, men's, youth (under -20) team, media notes (.pdf) or http:www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/MU20_notes.pdf) Chief Pipe lives anything but a modest existence at **************************************. All this, while Canada's star striker, Tomasz Radzinski, was expected to fly economy class from England to Canada this past summer to represent Canada in World Cup qualifying. And now Chief Pipe has the audacity to try to deprive soccer fans in Calgary and Toronto of some much needed soccer entertainment. When was the last time Chief Pipe hosted a Canadian Men’s International match on Canadian soil that was a FIFA required World Cup qualifying match? You kick arse Mr. Silver. I’m one Canadian soccer fan who stands behind you.

Furthermore, what Kevan Pipe says and what Canadian law is are two very different things. Just because the organizers of the Skydome event were either generous or naive does not mean other organizers of similar events need to follow suit. Don't you believe that Kevan Pipe wouldn't be threatening legal action if Mr. Silver was contravening the law. Mr. Silver has the balls to call K.P.'s bluff. Bravo! Tens of thousands of dollars are being spent on expensive holidays for the CSA boys. Taking the grandson to an expensive U15 event in Florida is not my idea of Canadian soccer dollars well spent. Neither are expensive hotel rooms in Dubai for Earl Cochrane. More and more Canadians are seeing that these CSA money sucking leeches need to be eradicated from the Canadian soccer scene. You go Howie! Kick K.P.'s fat azzz.

[analyst]

Robert, I checked the site you mentioned and it shows the Sheraton in Dubai as the team hotel, but how do you know the CSA paid $750 per night for Earl Cochrane's room?

What is the story behind someones grandson being taken to a U15 camp in Florida? Did the CSA pay the childs travel expenses?

Did Andy Sharpe approve of these expenses?

I hope for the sake of soccer in Canada that what you are alleging didn't happen.

[grey fox55]

In dealing with this issue i.e. whether Mr. Silver and his associates might owe any money to the CSA or any Provincial Association for hosting these two games, a couple of points must be cleared. One is whether the CSA has any jurisdiction over any of the participants involved. Its clear that Mr. Silver is not a member of any Provincial Association nor is he a member of the CSA. Since he is not a member of any association neither the CSA nor any Provincial Association has any jurisdiction over him and there is nothing that the CSA can do as regards Mr. Silver. None of the CSA rules and regulations that Mr. Pipe refers to apply to him.

The next issue than becomes whether any of the other participants fall within the jurisdiction of the CSA, any Provincial Association or any foreign soccer association i.e. are the old timers teams affiliated with the English FA. If they are they fall under the jurisdiction of their home association and could be forced to tow the Association line or they won't get permission to travel from their own associationn However, if they are not members, neither the CSA nor the English FA can do anything to force them to pay the fee requested.

Further, as it relates to the Canadian players who may participate in this event, if they are members of any Provincial Association they would fall under the Jurisdiction of the CSA and may be santioned by them, however, I can't see what the CSA could do to a 40 year old player who probably only plays recreatiional soccer and isn't registered with any Provincial Association.

One last point, eight (8%) percent of gross is no small amount when it comes to a business expense as stated by Mr. Pipe.

Regarding the fee supposedly paid by the organizers of the Champiions series, I can only say that they had no choice since the teams particapating in that event were all members of their home Association without whose consent they would't be able to participate.At any rate we don't know how much they paid, if any.

[Gordon]

One of the articles quotes Pipe as saying the English FA claims jurisdiction over the legends, therefore, unless Mr. Pipe is blowing smoke, the CSA holds the hammer.

[G-Man]

Robert.

I now go on record as saying "you are a total asshole".

"Chief Pipe lives anything but a modest existence at**************************."

Why does it matter where Mr Pipe lives? And why are giving out his address? Are you stalking him? Are you trying to intimidate him?

You need to get a life.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Robert.

Why does it matter where Mr Pipe lives? And why are giving out his address?

I do believe that's grounds for banning.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

I do believe that's grounds for banning.

Good riddance.

[ted]

I bet this is all a piblicity stunt to drum up coverage for the benefit of the tournament. The more heated the discussion becomes in the media the more free advertising the event gets. [8D]

[beachesl]

Yes, the Don King of footie!

[Richard]

Since none of us here has all the details pertaining to this whole affair and can only make judgements on the snippets of information selected for broadcast or publication by journalists we really are in no position to make proper judgements. Doesn't mean it isn't grist for the mill of entertaining debate but we're all really operating from a position of ignorance or at best only partial information.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Good riddance.

I have to concur with all three of you. We have to ask ourselves. do we want to be associated with this kind of conduct? Putting peoples addresses on a web board?

[beachesl]

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I have to concur with all three of you. We have to ask ourselves. do we want to be associated with this kind of conduct? Putting peoples addresses on a web board?

What, accusing a 26-year-old poster who is the son of Italian immigrants of being Kevan Pipe wasn't enough? Including posting the phone number of someone who lives in the same town of said poster because their last name is Pipe?

[analyst]

Dear Friends,

I suspect Robert posted the address to try to tell us that he had done his home work, and that if one were to drive by the address one would see a large house in a swanky neighbourhood, thereby proving that the CSA pays Pipe more than Robert thinks he should receive.

It ignores the fact that Pipe's wife may have a well paying job or he may have received an inheritance.

I'm interested in a few other issues raised by Robert, such as:

1) Did the CSA pay $750 per night for Earl Cochrane's hotel room, when decent but less expensive alternatives were available?

2) Did the CSA pay the travel expenses of someone grandson to Florida, and if yes, then who's grandson, and did Andy Sharpe approve it?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

What, accusing a 26-year-old poster who is the son of Italian immigrants of being Kevan Pipe wasn't enough? Including posting the phone number of someone who lives in the same town of said poster because their last name is Pipe?

I take it that you are in agreement then.

Then again, Kevan Pipe lives in Ontario and so do you