analyst Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 This thread continues a discussion started elsewhere about our strengths and weaknesses. Many posters have suggested that Canada produces world class youth players but they don't move into professional environments therefore they don't develop into to world class adult players. I'm not sure there is empirical evidence to support the argument that we do produce world class youth players. Can anyone provide evidence one way or another? Another issue that was debated on another thread is whether we are better at producing defensive players or attacking/offensive players. Our past track record is that we have done well producing goalies and defenders but not creative or skillful attackers. There may be exceptions to the rule. What is your overall impression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 i wonder how can we produce solid defensive players without having them facing top quality offensive players with which to test themselves? sort of a chicken and an egg i guess. i think we traditionally produce above average defensive players, but yes, lack up front short of a few talents such as dale mitchell, alex bunbury, and tomasz radzinski to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyst Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 The past practice has been to find the big stong players, with great endurance, and if they are not quite fast enough and only have average skills then let them play defence. When Tony Waiters coached the MNT, he led the team past the qualifying round through big tough defenders like Ian Bridge and Randy Samuel. We didn't have anyone skillful enough to beat a defennder one vs one, so we didn't score any goals in that World Cup year. I have watched the BC Allstar tryouts the last several years. During March spring break they take the top 30-40 players per age group and have 5 consecutive days of scrimmage games, soemtimes two games a day. The biggest and strongest players are the ones who survive the week long ordeal. Any skillful players who try to dribble get chopped down by their opponents and coaches yell at the skillful players to pass the ball. Its a wonder more skillful players don't quit soccer as youths. I have never seen the BCSA coaches test the players for socccer skills. Roman Tulis told me that he tested the players when he coached a BC Provincial team many years ago. He also said that he has not seen any BC Provincial coaches do any testing. The process does not seem to reward skillful players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Who needs individual skill when you can use the mighty long ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 it really needs to be a mixture of skill and strength. scrimmaging shows who the players are, but having them dribbling through cones doesn't really show much. i mean, if pure ball control was all that was required then the best juggler (that orienal fella) would be the best player in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyst Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 You're right, they need to both. I wouldn't wnat Mr. Woo on my team unless he could also run and he shows enough heart to go for a 50/50 ball. Soju's view is that Canada is known for long balls, I can't disagree, and that may be because many of our players aren't skillful enough to play another system. Chris Bennett worked on changing the womens whitecaps team to play a more ball control system last year, and they ended up winning the ALeague. They still played more long ball than Chris and I wanted, but there was improvement from the year before. School systems in Canada and other countries test children in math science and reading comprehension, and we can compare results from school to school, district to district and country to country. But in Canada we have no means of testing soccer players for skills and athletic ability and then comparing the results against results from other countries or against standards. Some or perhaps many Clubs in Europe with youth programs test youth players to help monitor their development. The CSA does not encourage testing, and it does not have standards for players to achieve, nor a curriclum for player development. The BCSA also does not have it, but I'm not sure about other Provincial Associations. Do other provincial associations encourage or testing of youth players skills and athletic ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 I wouldn't say a player who's strong in the air and/or acustomed to the more direct game of football is less skillfull than players who've cut there teeth on a different system. Just skillfull in different ways in a different system. You can teach any semi-talented player a thing or two about ball control, play recongition and learning to "shrink the field". You can't teach height. And learning to be an effective header of the ball is more like learning the long bow than learning to shoot a musket. Not everyone can be a bowman, and it takes a lifetime of practice to learn that craft. If you got someone who good in the air, especially in the boxs, they're worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concearned. Of course they can't be one dimensional. Being big, strong, and good in the air shouldn't automaticaly be a black mark against anyone. Even if that player isn't the best fellow with the ball in his feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 quote:Originally posted by analyst This thread continues a discussion started elsewhere about our strengths and weaknesses. Many posters have suggested that Canada produces world class youth players but they don't move into professional environments therefore they don't develop into to world class adult players. I'm not sure there is empirical evidence to support the argument that we do produce world class youth players. Can anyone provide evidence one way or another? Another issue that was debated on another thread is whether we are better at producing defensive players or attacking/offensive players. Our past track record is that we have done well producing goalies and defenders but not creative or skillful attackers. There may be exceptions to the rule. What is your overall impression? Some sort of proof that our youngin are good is that younger teams seem to do better internationally as compared to older guys. I would say that it is about the age of 17 where we start falling behind the rest of the world. Not that the players lack potential, but rather the program, or lack thereoff, has too many faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyst Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Ref, you say that our young teams do better internationally than our adult teams. Is the difference really big, for example our adult men are #90, what's the ranking of our male youth teams? If we are doing well at the youth level, then do the CSA and the Provincial Associations need to concentrate on improving the MNT rather than improve the development of youth? Can you provide more information about the suggestion that our youth teams do well, because I would like to know if that view stands up to scrutiny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 quote:Originally posted by analyst Ref, you say that our young teams do better internationally than our adult teams. Is the difference really big, for example our adult men are #90, what's the ranking of our male youth teams? If we are doing well at the youth level, then do the CSA and the Provincial Associations need to concentrate on improving the MNT rather than improve the development of youth? Can you provide more information about the suggestion that our youth teams do well, because I would like to know if that view stands up to scrutiny? Sorry, I don't have any statistics to prove that, I am just going by memory of some youth results. As far as the CSA and Provinces there needs to be a 5 or 10 year plan of where we want to be and a seamless program between youth and adult. If I may be so bold as to say we need more development rather than rely on Europe to do so for us. It does not seem to be working too well. Perhaps too much of varied styles trying to mesh together when we put a squad together. I further believe that we have some great players abroad in club teams, but when they come together for a national team they become more of a disappointment rather than excel even further in the national side. Thinking back we have gone through a good number of national coaches of varied backgrounds and experience, but results have tended to be much the same. From an outside point of view, we seem to be rocking the wrong tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 -posted by Robert in another thread, transferred here as post just a continuation of this topic, to conform with forum policy to avoid undue proliferation of threads - beachesl, moderator:) Robert 118 Posts Posted - 12/24/2004 : 13:35:07 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does Canadian Soccer Association have to offer to soccer players after they finish high school? Unless a young man secures a pro contract in Europe by the time their 18 years old, what are the best opportunities currently available to him? If he chooses to pursue a higher education, what is calibre of soccer at the Canadian collegiate level and how involved does the CSA get in this community? If the circumstances are such that the young man enters the work force after high school, what competitive environments does the CSA support where he can continue the development of him game? How much Canadian talent is lost every year due to players aging past their teenage years and having no serious avenues to pursue beyond the local beer-leagues. Why is the coaching accreditation process in Canada geared towards exclusiveness, instead of being supportive and receptive to those who show an interest in this field. With more accredited soccer coaches available to offer their services to serious club, just think of the technical and fitness benefits these players would receive. Maybe it's time for the CSA to start looking at taking baby steps towards improving the overall Canadian soccer scene, instead of the efforts they have pursued for the past 20 years and which have produced so little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 Good questions Robert. If the European avenue is not open to him, clearly IMHO the high school graduate's best overall route is clearly through the American Universities' "full ride scholoarship" route. Besides the intensive training and playing, they get some payment in terms of living expenses and have a University education to fall back on if it doesn't pan out and for post playing. I don't mean to be negative, but the Canadian Universities cannot offer anything approaching this opportunity. We now see, in Occean and Simpson, as well as some of the promising players in our U-20 program, the fruits of the NCAA avenue. In terms of your coaching questions, the answer is, plain and simple, money. The cost of the present elite coaching programs both for the kids to get the coachingand for those trying to get into coaching is already too high. But, where does the money come from? For a revolution in player quality in Canada, some financial revolution in soccer financiing is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 quote:Originally posted by beachesl Good questions Robert. If the European avenue is not open to him, clearly IMHO the high school graduate's best overall route is clearly through the American Universities' "full ride scholoarship" route. Besides the intensive training and playing, they get some payment in terms of living expenses and have a University education to fall back on if it doesn't pan out and for post playing. I don't mean to be negative, but the Canadian Universities cannot offer anything approaching this opportunity. We now see, in Occean and Simpson, as well as some of the promising players in our U-20 program, the fruits of the NCAA avenue. In terms of your coaching questions, the answer is, plain and simple, money. The cost of the present elite coaching programs both for the kids to get the coachingand for those trying to get into coaching is already too high. But, where does the money come from? For a revolution in player quality in Canada, some financial revolution in soccer financiing is needed. It's never going to happen that way. Serious financial investment will never preceed an unproven product. If so, giant conglomerates like Real Madrid or Manchester United would have already invested into the Canadian soccer market. Unfortunately, we have developed nothing to sell them and thus no dollars. You must first show that me that you have something I want before I reach for my wallet. The only man I would do business with ii Canadian soccer is Greg Kerfoot. He has shown longterm financial commitment to soccer in Vancouver. I think the CSA should value a man like this and do everything possible to keep him on board. I dread to think where soccer in Vancouver would be without him. I will buy season tickets to the Whitecaps this year primarily due to Mr. Kerfoot's commitment and not so much based on the success of the team on the field. After spending $46 twice this year on the commitment the CSA put into their product at Swangard, I seriously doubt I'll be reaching for my wallet on any future CSA products. Sadly, I have now adopted the pionts of view expressed by many in my soccer community, "Why waste your money on the CSA." It hurt me when I'd heard these words on Commercial Drive on my way to Swangard. However, that pain has been exceeded by the product the CSA delivers. Unfortunately the legion of "Why waste your money on the CSA" is growing, and the legion of fans is dwindling. What would Swangard look like if there were no Guatemalan or Costa Rican supporters in the stands. From the Grandstand, the Voyageurs looked like a pretty small troop next to all those blue clad supporters. Maybe Canada sould change to a blue strip until we get some real red blood to replace the bluebloods at the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyst Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Another thread contained discussion about the benefits of training which US youth players were getting at Bradenton. They could practice 7 days a week. How often do serious youth players practice, for example how often do those fron age 12 to 15 practice? My experience has been that serious players in the BC lower mainland practice 3 to 4 times a week (twice with their club team and once or twice a week at a soccer school/academy). What's happening elsewhere? Are Canadian youth practicing enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Re youth players 12-15. They do have enough formal practices. It is the informal playing time that differs from country to country. Canada is probably more organized than most at this level. I only have anecdotal evidence to support my position. Having taken my son at 10 to the Netherlands to play with his soccer playing cousins there, I can say that he fit right in. He was no better or worse than the players he played against. However, he was playing all the time informally in backyards and in parks. Here in Brazil, I don't see any significant difference at the local level with young kids. The difference appears at higher levels of older aged organized soccer. Soccer becomes structured quickly in the mid teens here. Also many parents moan about the quality of soccer pitches in Canada. They would be in shock if they saw the pitches that are played on here. I was joking with some Brazilians friends that the secret to Brazilian soccer success is making young people walk around in beach sandals all the time. Ironically, I haven't seen a pair of soccer boots here (except on TV) since I arrived about three weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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