CSA Player Scouting Oversight

[Observer]

If the young man is not a citizean, then it becomes very difficult for the CSA. He has to be a citizean to play for Canada. So do we really expect them to spend the little resources on a player that may not be eligible for a number of years, or concentrate on those that are eligible, until that said player become eligible. What he could do is be part of the Provincial program. I read a post a while back where Quebec has several good players and people were asking why they were not selected for Canada. Then someone posted that none of the 4 were eligible because they did not have Citizeanship status. More recently I have found out that 3 years down the road most of the Quebec players still don't have Citizeanship. Lets keep things in perspective.

[analyst]

Ivan, you wrote earlier that we are producing world class youth players, but they don't progress after youth because they can't get into professional environments.

How do you know our youth are world class? Do we test their soccer skills and then compare the results to youth players from Europe? I'm not convinced our youth players are good enough because I haven't seen any stats to prove it. I'd love to see the proof if anyone has it.

Observer, you make a good point about Vukovic not being a Canadian citizen. His family applied for Citizenship last spring, and it takes 12 months for the Feds to process citizenship applications. In answer to the question about whether the CSA should spend resources on him the answer is probably no, but they do not need to spend resources on him, all they had to do was invite him to some training sessions when they were held in Vancouver, where he leaves. The CSA may not have done that because they may not have known about him until he played for Bosnia. But I don't know that for sure because Backstick has not answered the questions posed earlier.

[backstick]

First, I should apologize for using my friend's forwarded email to me. When I saw this thread I was curious and asked Earl if he had ever heard of Vukovic. He said yes and forwarded me the email and I pasted it above. A few have taken the email as cold and condescending but because I only pasted one email of many, much of the ongoing dialogue about Vukovic was missing...

analyst...sorry I didn't reply to your questions but I am not really on here very much and, secondly I don't have those answers. If you have questions for the CSA it would seem better to ask them. I am sure Earl would be happy to answer them for you. His email address is natteams@soccercan.ca

[Ivan]

You are correct Analyst. It is difficult to prove our players are "world class". I base that comment (perhaps incorrectly) on the fact that we can compete with most countries at the youth level (below 16 years of age), given our success at youth tournaments. Our recent successes at the U20 and U17 levels also speaks well of our players, keeping in mind that a player like Hume was instrumental to our success at the last world youth championship. He was a "world class" youth player in Canada, then left to be developed in the Tranmere program.

Other examples include the DeGuzman brothers, who left very young for Olypique Marseille and Feyenoord. How about Edgar at Newcastle, Uccello at AC Milan, even Hargreaves at Bayern Munich, to name a few.

[Observer]

I speak with one of our National youth coaches occasionally when I take my son to training sessions. He always is of the opinion that our National youth teams do not play enough together to make the teams work as a unit. That is the main reason for the slow development of the teams. When they do travel they may have 4 training sessions before games begin. He says there is not a big gap between the good players at home and the ones with professional teams. The ones with professional teams develop quicker because they are forced too. They must perform or they are out, if they stay in those teams they will progress further.

[analyst]

Observer, Ivan and others. We have good naturedly digressed from the original intention of this thread, but it is important to discuss Canadian soccer strength and weaknesses, so I'll try to create a new thread for that discussion. If no one wants to write about the scouting system in Canada, or in some cases the lack thereof, then this thread will die a natural death.

I'm still hoping, perhaps naively, that someone from the CSA will answer the questions posted earlier and tell us how the socuting system is supposed to work and if it is working.

[Jeremy Loome]

Anyone think these arguments might work?

1) At the time of the match, he had a pending application in for Canadian citizenship. Assuming his citizenship can or will be granted retroactive to his point of application, he could qualify to convert his association membership at age 21, having never played for the Bosnian 'A' squad. This option seems unlikely, as citizenships are granted from the date of issuance, and I doubt the feds would make an exception for a 17-year-old soccer player.

2) As a minor, he has no choice as to whether he obtains Canadian citizenship. That choice is imposed upon him by his guardians, who are his parents, and exercised on their behalf by the Canadian government, who are the agents of that change. The FIFA regulation states that:

"Any Player who has already acquired eligibility to play for one Association but has another nationality imposed upon him by a government authority, is also entitled to change associations.

This provision is not subject to any age limits."

Besides which, one of the dictionary definitions of the word "Imposed" is "To apply or make prevail by or as if by authority". That simply means that if Canada exercises the legal authority to grant him citizenship, he can apply to switch it at age 21 having not played for the Bosnian 'A' side.

Imposed does not, by all definitions, mean "imposition without free will", and these regulations do not make that clear. FIFA would have a pretty tough time defending such an action in court.

[beachesl]

The applicable provisions are at page 31 of the following pdf:

FIFA Statutes

"1 Any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of his country. The Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility for any Player who assumes a new nationality and for whom par. 3 of this article does not apply, or for any Player who would, in principle, be eligible to play for the teams of more than one Association due to his nationality.

2 As a general rule, any Player who has already represented one Association (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category may not play an international match with another Association team.

3 If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if the Player is eligible to play for several Association teams due to his nationality, the following exceptions apply:

(a) Up to his 21st birthday, a player may only once request changing

A Player may exercise this right to change Associations

only if he has not played at “A" international level for his

current Association and if at the time of his first full or

partial appearance in an international match in an official competition of any other category, he already had such nationalities. Changing Associations is not permitted during the preliminary competition of a FIFA competition, continental championship or Olympic Tournaments if a player has already been

fielded in a match of one of these competitions.

( Any Player who has already acquired eligibility to play for one

Association but has another nationality imposed upon him by

a government authority, is also entitled to change associations.

This provision is not subject to any age limits."

Under paragraph 1, the Executive Committee still has a broad discretionary option to allow players like Vukovic, who would not fit into paragraph 3, to be considered eligible.... whether they would allow it in these circumstances is up in the air. Cochrane is wrong if he implied the situation was no-win. It should be noted that Kanoute came under para. 1 (and the over 21 grandfather clause not needed here), and not 3 (a), as he did not have Mali citizenship at the time of playing for the France U-17's.

In terms of Jeremy's inventive arguments on the wording of subparagraph's (a) and ( of 3, I doubt they would wash. The term "imposed" means a change of citizenship by governmental change, such as Croatia splitting from Yugoslavia.

The statues on the FIFA site have not yet been updated to include the "Ailton ammendments" (which Vukovic meets dues to citzenship) brought in on March 17, 2004.

So, if Vukovic really wants to play for Canada, he can apply for an exception under paragraph 1 based on his particular circumstances, once he is awarded Canadian citizenship (as long as he does it before he turns 21), and see what happens. He can do this without CSA's help, which may or may not be forthcoming given Cochrane's email, as the application paragraph 4 talks in terms of the player making the application.

[analyst]

Jeremy and beachesl, your ideas might work. Its disappointing that the CSA has not contacted Vukovic to see if he is interested in playing for Canada. He may be getting the impression that the CSA does not want him after he gets Candian citizenship. If that happens then he may commit to Bosnia rather than Canada.

It would be nice to know if the CSA knew about him before he played for Bosnia, and if not then why not?

[Gordon]

Surely to goodness this player had some idea of how eligibility worked when he and his family made the choice for him to play for Bosnia? Good lord, every 14 year old hockey player can quote NCAA scholarship rules backwards and forwards. The family had to know what they were doing. Good Lord, is the CSA accountable for every player that decides their future lies in their or their Papa's former homeland?

One of the most ridiculous things I see on this board is the constant whinning about players who got away or the desperate plea to cap tie every player with international options. Quite frankly, you pick a coach and you let him pick the best 18. Not force them to take number 23 because that kid could potentially play elsewhere.

I have no idea of whether or not Vukovic is worth the fuss. But he and his family made the choice to cap-tie to Bosnia. If he really wanted to play for Canada then they made the bigger mistake than the CSA. There are a ton of things one can hang of the CSA - the organization is desperately need of an overhaul - but this is absurd IMO.

[redhat]

Excellent points, Gordon.

Again, we seem to worry too much on those that apparently "got away" rather than the ones

that would DIE to play for OUR country. For every Vukovic, there's a De Jong. For every

Hargreaves, there's a De Vos, Stalteri, De Guzman, Hume, and Grande.

Let's support those who wear our colours, rather than those who enjoy the view from the fence.

[beachesl]

I agree with Gordon and redhat's sentiments, my discussion about the transnationals regulations was merely put in to elucidate the discussion. Worrying about the one's that get away should be very minor because there is so much better we can do with the many birds we have in our hands.

[analyst]

How many more players do we have to lose before the scouting problem gets fixed?

Sure Vukovic is only one player and he's young and may get injured seriously before he's old enough to play for a senior side, but Canada is not a soccer powerhouse so we can afford to lose potential players through oversights. The CSA has not contacted him, not even a phone call. Surely one CSA staff person would have had 5 minutes available to make a phone call.

In response to Gordon's comment that Vukovic' family must have known the rules, I beg to differ. I checked the FIFA wesbite and found out that the current rules about nationality were only introduced last year. Before the change, the FIFA rules were more flexible. In addition, the new rules are still not clear, so there may be a chance for Vukovic to play for Canada in the future.

[Ivan]

Analyst, how many players have we lost?

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

There's just a little difference between choosing England over Canada, and choosing Bosnia over Canada. Just a little.

Can you explain what the diffences are?

[analyst]

There are interesting posts about FIFA eligibility rules in the thread about the recent Panama Canada U20 game. Although the CSA has not even phoned Vukovic, it has included Will Johnson, a US resident in its U20 team. Johnson's parents are Brits, with no apparent tie to Canada, and he says he wants to play for England when he gets older.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by analyst

There are interesting posts about FIFA eligibility rules in the thread about the recent Panama Canada U20 game. Although the CSA has not even phoned Vukovic, it has included Will Johnson, a US resident in its U20 team. Johnson's parents are Brits, with no apparent tie to Canada, and he says he wants to play for England when he gets older.

While apparently Will Johnson is "news" to some, I first encountered the name 2 years ago or more on Big Soccer, where an article identified him as eligible for Canada. I went searching for it, but gave up - perhaps it was lost in the crash - nevertheless, I did find this thread in which a poster claims - he may or may not be right - that Will Johnson was born in Canada.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70696&highlight=johnson+blackburn

The risk with Johnson is that he chooses the US if he become eligible.

Edit...a google search is also an option...found it:

http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/NextStep/20030501135146

Confirms Johnson was born in Canada.

[Andrew W]

Until our international soccer reputation improves our players are going to be susceptible to the BBO (Bigger, Better Offer). Until then the national programs can't be run in a paranoid fashion, worrying about whether every soccer player in Canada that also holds a foreign passport is going to play international soccer for that country.

We can't afford to be handing out invites to camps or spots on rosters based on some fear of a player may take off to play for Lower Upper Slobobia. Those places need to designated on merit. I'll agree that sometimes the spots aren't handed out to the right players (IMHO), but that is almost always due to my opinion on a player's ability, potential or current playing form rather than on any fear that they may end up in another country's uniform.

I don't believe the CSA should be under any obligation to call or scout anyone simply because they may not end up in the red and white (I guess with a little black too). Further if a player is so set on playing for Canada yet are "disappointed or upset" when they don't get a call, then if they are true to their convictions (or intentions) then they need to sack-up and keep working at it.

Until then, I won't worry about these players, but will concentrate on the players who want to play for Canada (whether on not the coaches select them is another matter). Anyone who quickly chooses another option isn't someone I would put under the "wanting to play for Canada" banner.

[analyst]

Andrew wrote "I don't believe the CSA should be under any obligation to call or scout anyone simply because they may not end up in the red and white (I guess with a little black too)."

That makes sense, but the point I tried to make is that the scouting system may not be working. I can't find any other reasonable explanation for the fact the CSA never contacted Vukovic during the 4 years he has been playing in Canada. I assume the CSA relies on information from Provincial Association about young players, and the CSA coach then tries to see the player. I don't know what happened in this case.

I hope to see all the best players possible wearing Canadian jerseys.

[bc_soccer_fan]

analyst, do you know for a fact that the CSA didn't contect Vukovic?? They could've invited him to a camp and he could've declined because he wanted to play for Bosnia.

[analyst]

In answer to your question, I spoke to his father two weeks ago at a tryout for the Provincial team and he told me that the CSA has not contacted him.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

So...I guess the question then is...is he even good enough for the CSA to consider?

[The Ref]

I think I said this before. The CSA should not be making coaching decisions. They are there to provide administrative services to the national coaches.

[analyst]

LMS, in answer to your question about whether he is good enough for the CSA coaches to consider for the National youth team of his age group, yes, he is. He was good enough to play for the Bosnian U17 team in UEFA qualifying against France, Belgium and Latvia and he is still only 15 years old. He's born in 89, so he's good enough for our 89 team. I don't know how he compares to our 88's, even though he was included in the Bosnian 88 team.

[Andrew W]

As far as I'm concerned he plays for Bosnia now; end of story.