CSA Player Scouting Oversight

[analyst]

If CSA could reset the clock, would it have treat Hargreaves differently to get him to play for Canada? I would hope so, but the CSA has ignored a talented youth player named Vladimir Vukovic who has been living in B.C. for 4 years and who, while only 15 years old, played for the Bosnia U17 National Youth team in a UEFA U17 tournament against France, Belgium and Latvia in October. He was one of only two underage players on the Bosnian U17 team. Since Vukovic is good enough to play as an underage player on the Bosnian team he should be good enough for the Canadian youth team, but the CSA did not invite Vukovic to any tryouts or to any NTC training sessions. The Vukovic family applied for Canadian citizenship in May so it would like to stay in Canada.

[bettermirror]

he is still eligible for canada if he chooses. with canada having players eligible all over the world, it is impossible to recognise every player - it is much easier for other countries who keep their players in their native country.

this may be just the notice we require. what position does vladimir play?

[analyst]

In answer to your question, Vukovic is a striker, highly skilled with a real finishing touch.

If CSA does not include him in its pool of potential youth team players, then he will feel snubbed and may choose to play for Bosnia when he is older. CSA has been informed about him.

5 or 6 years ago, CSA did not include Hargreaves when it had a chance, and later on it came back to hurt us.

[Elias]

There's just a little difference between choosing England over Canada, and choosing Bosnia over Canada. Just a little.

[James]

The CSA can't be blamed for Hargreaves. He chose not to play when he was asked. He could have played for us many times and chose not to. He got cut once(as a youth player)? You really think thats the reason he chose England over Canada? Get real, man. The CSA went out of their way to get Owen on board. He shined us on for a long time too. Lets not forget that. I'm no fan of the CSA, I think they need a bigtime overhaul from the top on down but I hate blaming the CSA for a kid who turned his back on his country. He had every opportunity to be a soccer star for Canada. He wanted to be English. Or welsh maybe. Who cares?

The Vukovic kid is probably worth a look but does he even want to play for Canada? Has anyone talked to him? Maybe his heart is in Bosnia? Sounds like he was born and raised there or something, if he's only been in Canada 4 years. Nothing wrong with him playing for Canada but does he want it? Whatever, the Hargreaves thing is a different issue all together.

[bc_soccer_fan]

You said in your post that he doesn't have Canadian citizenship, that would mean he is currently not eligible to play for Canada. Once he does get it and if he is as good as you say then I'm sure the CSA will at least give him a look.

[analyst]

As James said in his post, Hargreaves got cut once when he was a kid. He also did not get included in some friendlies when he was 17 because Osieck said he was unproven. When Hargreaves was no longer unproven, thats when the CSA wanted him. It was too late by then.

Vukovic has been in Canada for 4 years and the CSA has not invited him to any youth team training sessions or tryouts. He's good enough to have played as one of 2 underage players on the Bosnia U17 team in a serious competition, but he's been ignored here.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by bc_soccer_fan

You said in your post that he doesn't have Canadian citizenship, that would mean he is currently not eligible to play for Canada. Once he does get it and if he is as good as you say then I'm sure the CSA will at least give him a look.

Why wait, look at him now! It is not as if the CSA is paying his way, they got nothing to lose and lots to gain.

[ray]

If Vukovic is interested in playing for Canada let him contact the CSA with his credentials. There is nothing wrong in letting them know he is available to play. If he is happy representing Bosnia, that's fine too. It is a big decision to switch countries so he should think about it a little. But if he wants to play in the 2007 World Youth Championship he'd better not wait too long to get on Mitchell's radar screen

[Alberto]

according to the letter of the law I dont believe he is qualified to particapate with the Canada team if if he wishes to. My understanding is that if he has played and represented an Association in a youth competation such as Bosnian U17 team in a competation match game and has played as ANALYST suggests than unfortunalty he would not quailfy. The only way that he could depends when and if he has and had a Dual Passport. If prior to him particapting in such a competation he did not have one then he cannot particapate with another Association. If he had a dual passport prior to this match then he can request to the FIFA and can make a change of Association only once and it must be done before the age of 21. But It appears that based on the new rule article 15 is clear and to the point and based on the information in this forum it appears 100% he would not qualify for the National Canadian team and he could only play for Bosiana.

[backstick]

analyst...below is a copy of an email exchange between a close friend of Vladimir's family and the CSA...perhaps you should know the details of a particular situation prior to leaping to conclusions...maybe a simply email to the CSA asking if they are aware of a player before vilifying them would have been a far more effective way to go about this, don't you think?...and yes Alberto...you are spot on...

Peter,

I have just done some research on Vladimir’s situation and found out that he actually played in a UEFA/FIFA Competition for Bosnia-Herzegovina…he came on in the 17th minute and was subbed in the 77th against Belgium in their UEFA qualifier on 21 October. Therefore, he is ineligible to play for Canada. If he had gained Canadian citizenship prior to this game, we may have entertained the possibilities but since he only had Bosnian citizenship at the time of this game, he is ineligible to play for Canada (see below).

There may be a possible argument since his application for Canadian citizenship is currently pending but I doubt it. If that situation should arise, we can then take up the matter with FIFA but until then, there is really nothing we can do.

Earl Cochrane

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article 15

1 Any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of his country. The Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility for any Player who assumes a new nationality and for whom par. 3 of this article does not apply, or for any Player who would, in principle, be eligible to play for the teams of more than one Association due to his nationality.

2 As a general rule, any Player who has already represented one Association (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category may not play an international match with another Association team.

3 If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if the Player is eligible to play for several Association teams due to his nationality, the following exceptions apply:

(a) Up to his 21st birthday, a player may only once request changing the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches.

A Player may exercise this right to change Associations only if he has not played at “A" international level for his current Association and if at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition of any other category, he already had such nationalities.

Changing Associations is not permitted during the preliminary competition of a FIFA competition, continental championship or Olympic Tournaments if a player has already been fielded in a match of one of these competitions.

( Any Player who has already acquired eligibility to play for one

Association but has another nationality imposed upon him by a government authority, is also entitled to change associations.

This provision is not subject to any age limits.

4 Any Player who wishes to exercise this right to change Associations shall submit a written and substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. After submitting the request, the Player is no longer qualified to play for his current Association’s team. The Players’

Status Committee shall decide on the request. The committee’s decision may be brought before the Appeal Committee. The Regulations for the Status and Transfer of Players contain more detailed provisions.

5 Any Players who have already had their 21st birthday at the time of implementation of these provisions and who fulfill the requirements in par. 3 (a) are also entitled to submit such a request to change Associations. This entitlement will expire definitively twelve months after implementation of this provision.

[analyst]

Backstick, you say I should have asked the CSA before posting a critique of the CSA for not including Vukovic in its National Youth team plans, and you include FIFA rules about eligibility which indicate Vukovic cannot play for Canada in the future. It may be too late for CSA to include Vukovic now, but I hope its not too late for CSA to learn something from the experience so it does not lose out on other future high level players.

Backstick, did the CSA know about Vukovic before he played for Bosnia this fall? If not, then why not - he has has been playing soccer in Canada for 4 years? Where did the scouting system break down? Did you rely on the BCSA to tell you about him?

Backstick, did the CSA invite Vukovic to any NTC training sessions in BC for players his age? If not then why not? Since the training sessions were held in the Vancouver area, it would not have cost the CSA any money to have included him in the youth team training sessions.

Finally, Backstick do you think that if a player feels ignored by the national youth team that he might try to play for another country. If you agree, then what can the CSA do different next time to ensure players don't feel ignored?

[redhat]

Tough call for the CSA, though I agree with you to a certain extent.

Firstly this is not a Hargreaves situation. Vukovic could have been invited and the CSA basically

failed to identify him as a prospect. But for every Vukovic, there's a Bergovic, Grande, Lalli,

and Dunfield. Sometimes they fall off the radar, sometimes they don't. Vukovic obviously prefers

to play for Bosnia, I speculate from day one.

But consider the case of Jonathan de Guzman. Can you blame the CSA who, despite identifying him

and wooing him, may still prefer to play for the Netherlands? I'm not too sure.

Perhaps we should concentrate on the people we have and continue to pursue "connected" players

rather than continue with the CSA blame game, which frankly is too easy to do.

[massimo]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

Perhaps we should concentrate on the people we have and continue to pursue "connected" players rather than continue with the CSA blame game, which frankly is too easy to do.

I agree with you Redhat, this constant negativity does no one any good. We must look at the positives and build on them.

Not vice-versa!

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by massimo

I agree with you Redhat, this constant negativity does no one any good. We must look at the positives and build on them.

Not vice-versa!

Yeah, I am all for the positives too. Sometimes they are hard to find and the negatives tend to be more enticing. Take the letter from Earl Cochrane above as an example, it is very condescending and cold. An open invitation for someone to get p.o. Instead of something like - gee I am so sorry, let's get together and see if we can work out something, I really want to help this kid and we don't want to lose him. I want to appeal to any special circumstance we can find. Please call me at.... At the end there may not be any way out, but isn't it a wee more positive communication, that leaves you with a warm feeling that these guys really did all they could and really worked with us.

[Ivan]

Maybe there are better players in BC than Vukovic? Maybe the scouts thought other players were more deserving?

At the youth level, we produce many world class players. Our problem is, of course, getting them into pro-type surraoundings.

[massimo]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

Yeah, I am all for the positives too. Sometimes they are hard to find and the negatives tend to be more enticing. Take the letter from Earl Cochrane above as an example, it is very condescending and cold. An open invitation for someone to get p.o. Instead of something like

TheRef, Again I understand your point it seems to me some kind of communications course could help this situation. But, unfortunately with the budget the CSA has, i don't think they are interested in pursuing that.[:0]

[Rodway]

From the sounds of it Vukovic only played 1 game as a sub during the u-17 tournament. Perhaps the Bosnians (knowing he had moved to Canada), only selected him to the team for the purposes of cap-tying him. Thus preventing him from choosing to play for Canada in the future.

If that was the case, then smart move by the Bosnians. We all wish the CSA would have had the forsight to do the same think with Hargreaves. Maybe then this thread wouldn't exist because we'd all be discuessing what players Yallop should select for the for the upcoming hex.

But what can you do? You win some(Dunfield,De Jong),you lose some(Hargreaves,De Guzman?) and you move on.

[Grizzly]

I don't wish the CSA had done the same for Hargreaves. I would rather have people who want to play for Canada. If they don't then good riddance. I really doubt he would have showed up all that often to play for us anyway.

[analyst]

Rodway, it sounds like you are tired of seeing Canada lose, so you want the CSA to be tougher by locking up the young talented players so that if they want to play for any country then it has to be Canada. The players can still play for any club team they want. I support your approach. I'm tired of our teams losing so early in WCQ.

Its frustrating to see Hargreaves, who was born and raised in Calagary, playing for England, when if the CSA had tried harder, they might have got him. Grizzly wrote that Hargreaves had chosen Canada then he might not have played much for us anyway. That may or may not be true, but a limited commitment doesn't stop the MNT from including Radzinski, as he doesn't show up very often. I'd sooner have Hargreaves and Radzinski some of the time than none of the time.

Thats why this thread is needed, to keep the CSA paid staff on their toes, so Canada does not lose out on other players.

[Timotas]

Just because he played for Bosnia, doesn't necessarily mean he is automatically a shoe-in for Canada, I'm sure he is a great player, but our youth system is up there. You can't compare Bosnia and Canada's men's team to their youth teams, because I know, of course Bosnia do have more talent in the MNT area of International soccer. I'd say Canada are an up and coming powerhouse in youth soccer, as are the USA, as you can tell from the last U20's. I agree with Ivan, maybe the CSA felt other players deserved a spot or a look over him, maybe they were aware he played for Bosnia U17's, scouted and watched him play a couple times and he underperformed, you can never tell with this sorta stuff.

[Grizzly]

Since patching things up with Holger, Radzinski has actually showed up pretty regularly for Canada. I don't want to get into yet another debate on the Hargreaves issue but the blame for not showing up for Canada lies entirely with Hargreaves not the CSA. Sure its great to cap guys but you're not going to win much with a bunch of guys who don't have their heart into playing for Canada regardless of their skill level.

[James]

Analyst. For the record, the CSA DID try to get Owen Hargreaves into the setup. They tried and tried. I believe HO spoke to him several times and gave him many opportunities to join in with the WC side. Hargreaves even said he would play for Canada and that was AFTER he was cut as a youth player. He even committed at some point but pulled up lame with a phantom injury and didn't show. The bottom line here is that Hargreaves felt more English than Canadian and there was nothing that the CSA or anyone else could have done to change his mind. If it wasn't England, he'd have picked Wales. I guess Canada is a nice enough place to live and raise a family and go to school and get injuries treated, it just isn't a place to be patriotic about. At least that seems to be the Hargreaves attitude on the matter. Lets keep things straight on the issue and leave out the revisionist stuff. The CSA never left OH, The Whore left his country. Simple as that.

[analyst]

Ivan, you wrote that we produce many world class youth players but they fail to get into pro surroundings. How do you know we produce high enough quality players? Maybe the reason they don't become pro is because they are not good enough. Our greatest success is in producing defensive players, which does not require great skill.

In education, there are worldwide tests and comparison so we know our students do well in comparison to students in other countries. Does the CSA test Canadian kids in soccer skills?

Backstick, or as The Re calls you, Earl Cochrane, I'll repeat some of my earlier unanswered questions. Did the CSA know about Vukovic and if not why not? Do you rely on Provincial Associations to tell you about players like Vukovic? Where did the scouting system break down? What can the CSA do to ensure it doesn't happen again?

[Ivan]

I disagree Analyst.

Currently, the position where we have the least amount of depth is defender. From the full NT, where we are now scrambling for a replacement for deVos, should he decide to retire, to the U20s, where our best defender may be be two years underage (Edgar).

Remember as well, at the last U20 WC, we had to bring our best midfielder, Huthcinson, back to central defence before we started winning.

Most of the "world class youth players", if you will, we are producing are midfielders and attackers.