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stacks

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This is for all those people screaming at Canada to develop a professional soccer league or to enter a MLS team. You are the guys that probably never go to an a-league game.

The future of Candian soccer is in your own hands. People have to start supporting the Whitecaps, and the Impact. These teams rarely ever sell out. If we support these teams then Candian Soccer will expand with more money,better media coverage, sales(jerseys,balls, trading cards,bobbleheads etc..

We have to work our way up, start supporting the little guys and we will grow into a leading soccer nation.

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quote:Originally posted by stacks

This is for all those people screaming at Canada to develop a professional soccer league or to enter a MLS team. You are the guys that probably never go to an a-league game.

The future of Candian soccer is in your own hands. People have to start supporting the Whitecaps, and the Impact. These teams rarely ever sell out. If we support these teams then Candian Soccer will expand with more money,better media coverage, sales(jerseys,balls, trading cards,bobbleheads etc..

We have to work our way up, start supporting the little guys and we will grow into a leading soccer nation.

Did you forget the Lynx? The reason the Lynx don't sell out that many is that they play in a hard to get to stadium. For an out of towner

like me thats important cause by the time i take the Greyhound in,then the Subway a couple of times, get to the game, i might have to leave before it's finished,to catch the subway and bus back, so way bother going in the first place? I know the Lynx can only play

where they can get a stadium,but they needed to be closer to downtown Toronto not in Missisauga. and maybe if the nat's put up a ggod showing now and again people would get out and feel good about the sport i this country.

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quote:Originally posted by stacks

This is for all those people screaming at Canada to develop a professional soccer league or to enter a MLS team. You are the guys that probably never go to an a-league game.

The future of Candian soccer is in your own hands. People have to start supporting the Whitecaps, and the Impact. These teams rarely ever sell out. If we support these teams then Candian Soccer will expand with more money,better media coverage, sales(jerseys,balls, trading cards,bobbleheads etc..

We have to work our way up, start supporting the little guys and we will grow into a leading soccer nation.

Not true. Maybe 100 years ago. The rest of the soccer world is too far ahead. MLS is the lowest starting block possible.

Look at the Impact. When they won the APSL championship I guess it was like 94 or something, there were like 15 000 people at the final and it was on TSN and they were huge in Montreal.

Then what happened...nothing!

Saputo sold out, then they went bankrupt, and now it's basically owned by the government.

The Argos even in their worst years averaged 15 000 fans, tv ratings were alwasy pretty good (for the CFL in general), and yet it was a week to week operation with minimal media coverage.

MLS is unfortunately the only option.

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Too bad your stats are made up! Montréal's biggest-ever crowd before 2003 was 8,169 for the 1994 final. It got added exposure because of the lock-out and the baseball strike. The Impact AVERAGED over 9,000 this season, frequently adding seats to a stadium whose official capacity is 7,500!

With smart management, a good team and GREAT community, sponsor and youth soccer links, the Impact went from an average of 2,800 to 9,000+ in 3 seasons! The people running these teams (Calagary, Edmonton and to a certain extent, Toronto) have no business sense and no credibility (which helps when gathering sponsors). Smart operators and appropriate stadiums bring a better avenue for more potential youths than a single MLS team, who might use the A-League teams as almost-straight feeder teams.

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I was exagerating. But, I honestly thought the 94 final had about 10 000. Nothing else I said is false.

I completely agree with you. Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto are run brutally. I think the Impact and the Caps have done great jobs.

BUT, wouldn't it be better if the Impact and the Caps were in the MLS. Saputo has the money, and from all reports, so does Caps owner Kerfoot. I know it's not that simple...

But honestly, how can people sit here and say A-League is better for Canada than MLS?

"who might use the A-League teams as almost-straight feeder teams."

Well are A-League teams the pinacle for players now? I hope not. We aren't gonna win the Cup with a team full of A-Leaguers. It's a step towards the top. MLS would just be a half-step (and growing) up from that.

And to be honest, I think that maybe an MLS team would be better if it went first to Montreal (especially with no Expos) or Vancouver where if they got 20 000 a game (McGill with grass), than it could expand into Toronto. I know it won't happen, but anyways.

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The difference is in the players they would sign. A Montréal A-League team signed Hainault and Taty (in 2003) more for development purposes than for improvement. Hainault didn't even play a full half this season! But this year of playing in a professionnal setting will only have prepared him better as a pro. I doubt an MLS club would go about signing as many unproven youngsters as the Impact. We might see more Hastings or Fletchers or even a Menezes, which I'd rather not.

The debate is not MLS vs. A-League, but mostly ONE MLS team vs. a potential Canadian league (ie 8 teams).

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quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The debate is not MLS vs. A-League, but mostly ONE MLS team vs. a potential Canadian league (ie 8 teams).

NO IT'S NOT! :D This is what I posted in the other thread. I don't understand this logic. If somebody has $50 million to invest in MLS, option B is NOT 8 Canadian league teams. It doesn't work like that.

If 8 Canadian A-League can be found eventually, then great, we can have a Canadian league with a Toronto MLS team. I honestly wish it would happen. But a half-decent Canadian league is not happening any time soon.

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The difference is in the players they would sign. A Montréal A-League team signed Hainault and Taty (in 2003) more for development purposes than for improvement. Hainault didn't even play a full half this season! But this year of playing in a professionnal setting will only have prepared him better as a pro. I doubt an MLS club would go about signing as many unproven youngsters as the Impact. We might see more Hastings or Fletchers or even a Menezes, which I'd rather not.

But why wouldn't the A-League team still sign them?

And lets say Toronto gets an MLS team, I don't understand how this negatively affects Montreal or Vancouver A-League sides? It should make them better, cause then young players would know they have an option closer to home, instead of going to Europe right away.

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quote:Originally posted by Elias

NO IT'S NOT! :D This is what I posted in the other thread. I don't understand this logic. If somebody has $50 million to invest in MLS, option B is NOT 8 Canadian league teams. It doesn't work like that.

I think that you're misunderstanding the argument. While someone did post the patently unfeasible idea of one investor spending an MLS expansion on setting up a full-time Canadian league I don't think that's really what most of the posters suspicious of MLS are arguing. What's at stake is the QWERTY principle.

Look at the upper left of your keyboard... you'll see that the letters go Q W E R T Y. This is because back in the day of manual typewriters typists got so fast that they would actually jam. In response industry redesigned the keyboard layout so that some of the most useful letters were the hardest to reach to intentionally slow down the typists and prevent jamming. Skip ahead many years and technology has improved to the point where there is no limit on typing speed imposed by the machine you're working on but we all still have the inefficient keyboard. Why? Because that keybaord became the industry standard and we all learned to type on it. Basically society has invested way to much human and physical capital into it to make more efficient keyboards viable... we got locked into an inefficient development. This idea has been applied to many industries to explain why they develop in certain areas. Think aerospace in the Pacific Northwest, Silicon Valley, or medical research in the Boston area.

What does this mean for Canadian soccer? Well right now you are absolutely right that not enough Canadian soccer fans exist to support a fulltime Canadian league. That does not mean however that we should presume it will always be such. What I'm saying is that while MLS may be the best solution in the (extreme) short term it is important to evaluate the potential longterm impact. As someone who desperately would love to see an all-Canadian elite league in my lifetime I have serious misgivings about MLS since it may strangle any chnace of such a league developing. This is not unreasonable as I've tried to explain.

Mike.

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quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

I think that you're misunderstanding the argument. While someone did post the patently unfeasible idea of one investor spending an MLS expansion on setting up a full-time Canadian league...

Excuse me, but as the someone in question I want to find out what you mean by "patently unfeasible"?

Please detail exactly what part of my thesis is unfeasible and I will be happy to stop promulgating an idea that cannot possibly work. However, since neither you nor anyone else involved in this thread has to this time shown a single logical argument against the plan I have to ask that you not use such pejorative language.

quote:

I don't think that's really what most of the posters suspicious of MLS are arguing. What's at stake is the QWERTY principle.

[snip]

What does this mean for Canadian soccer? Well right now you are absolutely right that not enough Canadian soccer fans exist to support a fulltime Canadian league.

I disagree and I find it contradictory in it's implication. If there are not enough fans to support a league how can there be enough fans to support an MLS team? There are more than enough fans to support a league while not enough to support an MLS team. I think the following are realistic attendance targets for a 10 team National League(NL):

Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver: 12,000 (4,000 each)

Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Quebec City: 12,000 (3,000 each)

Victoria, London, Winnipeg: 6,000 (2,000 each)

Total NL Attendance Target: 30,000

Are you telling me that 30,000+ is a realistic per game attendance target for a new MLS team in T.O.? In a stadium that will be built to hold 25,000?

quote:That does not mean however that we should presume it will always be such. What I'm saying is that while MLS may be the best solution in the (extreme) short term it is important to evaluate the potential longterm impact. As someone who desperately would love to see an all-Canadian elite league in my lifetime I have serious misgivings about MLS since it may strangle any chnace of such a league developing. This is not unreasonable as I've tried to explain.

And that is the crux of the matter. In the short term an MLS experiment will remove ANY chance of developing a NL. In the long term it will severely retard any such move.

The reason I keep bringing up the idea of taking an MLS-size investment and using it to start a NL is that it appears to me to make better sense developmentally and economically. A single MLS team is a rich man's toy that will probably damage the game in Canada. A new NL would be a lot of hard work requiring a long-term vision and commitment.

I await your insights. :)

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Living in Ottawa I can tell you that the 3000 per game is unrealistic. The AAA ball club had games this year where there were more staff than fans. The CFL team is starting to draw crowds below 18,000-- only three years in. The Sens, in a hockey mad city rarely sell-out. A losing season or two and watch their numbers drop.

The Fury draw maybe 500 per game- and they have one of the best women's team in the world. The Wizards drew even less than that. And before anyone starts with the woe is Carp routine. Some 250,000 people live within a 15 minute drive. Some 1.1 withing a 45 minute drive. The Intrepid, playing in a central location did 1200. People in Ottawa play sports-- they don't seem to like going to watch others play them.

If the Ottawa PDL team draws more than 500 a game this summer I'll eat my hat. (It's made of chocolate)

Calgary or Edmonton just died a painful ugly death. Quebec City besides hosting one Impact game a year has never had a pro team or even a semi-pro team of any kind.

I've said this before. Our best hope is to hothouse players. Whether that is buying a club like Wrexham or in an MLS setting.

The NL is a dud idea. My only question to you is: Why would this time be different from the last 6 times? explain.

Pro soccer has the same chance that pro lacross has of succeeding.

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quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan

BTW Elias, you should join the BHTC forum..aka the support group for the Hamilton Thunder.. www.thundercrew.com

Yeah, I've checked it out. I've been to a couple Thunder games, and you guys do a good job. And no, I will not join in. There ain't enough alcohol in the world. :D

To start, nobody wants more than me to see Labrador United take on Red Deer Town (or w/e they were calling it [:P] ) in front of 70 000 fans at Thunder Bay National Stadium for the CSA Open Cup. Yeah, and I gotta go now cause Angeline Jolie is waiting in my bed.

quote:Originally posted by ted

Excuse me, but as the someone in question I want to find out what you mean by "patently unfeasible"?

Please detail exactly what part of my thesis is unfeasible and I will be happy to stop promulgating an idea that cannot possibly work. However, since neither you nor anyone else involved in this thread has to this time shown a single logical argument against the plan I have to ask that you not use such pejorative language.

logic n science of reasoning; reasoned thought or argument; coherence of various FACTS, EVENTS, etc.

FC Calgary Storm...Edmonton Aviators...Ottawa Wizard...Toronto Olympians (they spent a ton of money and dominated the CPSL and had 3 fans a game)...

Who won the CSA Open Cup? This CUSL plan has been in the works for 5 years now, where's the money?

The reason it's not an either or financially, is that the person(s) that would invest in an MLS team, will not, one more time, WILL NOT invest in 8 Canadian league teams. Like you said, the MLS team will be a rich man's toy. But that's what top level soccer is.

The Leafs are not going to start a soccer league. They're not gonna purchase an MLS team either, but that's an other story.

But I don't understand how it will hurt the game. If there's a Toronto MLS team, and 6 A-League teams in the rest of the country, how is that bad??? It would be better if the Toronto team was in the A-League so we would have 7 A-League teams??? HUH???

I understand the argument that an MLS team will basically mean a CSL will not happen. Just like if the NFL had come to Toronto in the 90's, the CFL would have probably died. The key difference here, is that the CFL existed, while the CSL does not. Just a slight difference.

As for player development, a Canadian league will be nowhere near the level of MLS. We do not have 150 players at that level. It would at best be at the A-League level.

As for MLS in Toronto, it will be a tough sell. But I honestly think they can expect 20 000 a game.

As for this building the leagues/teams up, how well did that work in basketball? There's been many "pro" basketball teams/leagues in this country as well. It took the Craptors to come in and raise the profile of the game. Even though I wish they would go away. The Grizzlies failed cause nobody in this country cares about basketball.

Anyway...I wish we had any sort of soccer to talk about (BESIDES THE FIX IN TODAY'S ARSENAL GAME - 5-1 MY BIG FAT GREEK @$$) cause it's been the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over and over on this board for the last 10 years...

P.S. As for the keyboard, what would be a better layout? Even if it was A-B-C would it not still take the same effort and time to learn? Just wondering? [:P]

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

My only question to you is: Why would this time be different from the last 6 times? explain.

The entire premise of this thread has been that someone is willing to put up the money to start an MLS team. That amount of money is at least $15M Canadian dollars. That would be the difference and that was THE critical factor in the failure of all previous attempts identified by the KPMG report.

The difference would be that a new league with $15M in cash in the bank to use for starting the league has never happened before in all the attempts to start a NL.

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quote:Originally posted by Elias

logic n science of reasoning; reasoned thought or argument; coherence of various FACTS, EVENTS, etc.

FC Calgary Storm...Edmonton Aviators...Ottawa Wizard...Toronto Olympians (they spent a ton of money and dominated the CPSL and had 3 fans a game)...

Who won the CSA Open Cup? This CUSL plan has been in the works for 5 years now, where's the money?

First, let me point out that the CUSL was spiked by entrenched parochial interests in particular by Bruno Hartrell and Mike Vandale several years ago. Asking "Where's the money?" as if it is an ongoing concern is bizarre and completely illogical or are you so poorly informed that you believe the CUSL is still an ongoing enterprise?

Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, the Olympians all failed becasue they did not have what I have been describing. You cannot simply throw money at a team or a league and make it work. Even investing wads of cash in a new NL would fail if not done correctly.

None of those teams was backed by sufficient money with a reasonable plan to succeed in a centrally marketed and managed national league. I advocate a plan to build a league and all you respond with is the failures of individual teams?

quote:

The reason it's not an either or financially, is that the person(s) that would invest in an MLS team, will not, one more time, WILL NOT invest in 8 Canadian league teams. Like you said, the MLS team will be a rich man's toy. But that's what top level soccer is.

Sure, that is what it has become. Does that make it right? Does that make it the way Canada should go? Will that be the way Canada gets to the World Cup?

Hey, maybe my concept would work, maybe it would not. I am realistic enough to accept that we will probably never know because this idea will never be presented to anyone who could make it work. Hunt and Anshutz were the only two guys in the entire U.S. (pop. 350 million?) who had the money and the vision to make MLS what it is today.

Can we find one such person in Canada? Probably not.

Heck, those arguing with me should say "Nice idea Ted, lets get back to reality." but as long as I can dream and no one is able to disprove my theory I will be happy to answer my critics.

quote:

But I don't understand how it will hurt the game. If there's a Toronto MLS team, and 6 A-League teams in the rest of the country, how is that bad??? It would be better if the Toronto team was in the A-League so we would have 7 A-League teams??? HUH???

HUH??? is right. There is a Toronto Team in the A-League (sorry, USL First Division) already.

The problem I have with the MLS is that it will be too few spots and concentrate all soccer dollars (advertising, merchandising, ticket sales) in one team in one city. I have already said I cannot object to three MLS teams but that is not going to happen in our lifetime and since a better option exists (see above) I see no reason to support a bad idea.

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quote:Originally posted by ted

Asking "Where's the money?" as if it is an ongoing concern is bizarre and completely illogical or are you so poorly informed that you believe the CUSL is still an ongoing enterprise?

I wasn't attacking you. My point was did this plan come up with the necessary cash? No. Hartrell and Vandale obviously do not have the necessary financial resources. So, would it not be up to the CUSL (the group w/e) to have gone out and found the necessary people with the money. There's really nothing that Hartrell and Vandale brought to the table. I don't see why they would have to be involved.

quote:Originally posted by ted

None of those teams was backed by sufficient money with a reasonable plan to succeed in a centrally marketed and managed national league. I advocate a plan to build a league and all you respond with is the failures of individual teams?

Actually the Olympians did have the cash. Just nobody cared. And a league is made of a individual teams that work together to make it a success. :D I just gave you examples of the 4 of the 8 cities that would be part of a national league where pro soccer has failed.

quote:Originally posted by ted

Sure, that is what it has become. Does that make it right? Does that make it the way Canada should go? Will that be the way Canada gets to the World Cup?

Seems to have helped the US. And I don't think the NASL hurt us either.

quote:Originally posted by ted

Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, the Olympians all failed becasue they did not have what I have been describing. You cannot simply throw money at a team or a league and make it work. Even investing wads of cash in a new NL would fail if not done correctly.

That amount of money is at least $15M Canadian dollars. That would be the difference and that was THE critical factor in the failure of all previous attempts identified by the KPMG report.

I know, you're just going to tell me cause they didn't have the plan.

quote:Originally posted by ted

Hunt and Anshutz were the only two guys in the entire U.S. (pop. 350 million?) who had the money and the vision to make MLS what it is today.

Can we find one such person in Canada? Probably not.

Saputo has the cash and has been involved in Canadian soccer. Stronach owns the Austrian league (or whatever). Kerfoot supposedly has cash. Stavro had cash once upon a time. And I'm sure there are others.

It's the job of the you know who to get these people on board.

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