US Presidential election

[Bangoutoforder]

Guys, I hate to say it, but the kind of setentious and mocking argumentation in which some have engaged in what was this polite discussion is the what turns people off against so-called liberals. To express incredulity at an election result sadly lives up to the reputation that many strident liberals have of being anti-democratic. The people have spoken. That is a fact. Do not presume to know all of their motivess but assume that motives exist. Aside from the professional kickers and screamers, the candidates and the public and even the media are reacting and moving forward with magnanimity.

Bom. Hats off to those who approached this discussion with curiosity, sensitivity and humor.

What position does Noam Chomsky play, anyway?

[Bangoutoforder]

Guys, I hate to say it, but the kind of setentious and mocking argumentation in which some have engaged in what was this polite discussion is the what turns people off against so-called liberals. To express incredulity at an election result sadly lives up to the reputation that many strident liberals have of being anti-democratic. The people have spoken. That is a fact. Do not presume to know all of their motivess but assume that motives exist. Aside from the professional kickers and screamers, the candidates and the public and even the media are reacting and moving forward with magnanimity.

Bom. Hats off to those who approached this discussion with curiosity, sensitivity and humor.

What position does Noam Chomsky play, anyway?

[Bangoutoforder]

Originally posted by SABuffalo786

Yeah, I don't think the hick scum would vote for a black guy.

/quote]

Actually, that's wrong. In Samuel Huntington's "Who are We?" he cites studies that conclude that 90% of Americans would have no problem whatsoever with either a woman, black or Jewish president.

To pay Canadians the compliment of being sophisticated may be well-intentioned but it is unfair to Canadians because it imposes an expectation and it's insulting because it bespeaks a lack of awarness of the Canadian political landscape. Downhome conservatives exist in Canada. In fact, only recently a candidate for PM, Stockwell Day (IIRC), had radically fundamentalist religious views; he believed the the world was only 3000 years old.

Do allow me to refer to my Huntington during lunch so that I may get the name of that study.

[Bangoutoforder]

Originally posted by SABuffalo786

Yeah, I don't think the hick scum would vote for a black guy.

/quote]

Actually, that's wrong. In Samuel Huntington's "Who are We?" he cites studies that conclude that 90% of Americans would have no problem whatsoever with either a woman, black or Jewish president.

To pay Canadians the compliment of being sophisticated may be well-intentioned but it is unfair to Canadians because it imposes an expectation and it's insulting because it bespeaks a lack of awarness of the Canadian political landscape. Downhome conservatives exist in Canada. In fact, only recently a candidate for PM, Stockwell Day (IIRC), had radically fundamentalist religious views; he believed the the world was only 3000 years old.

Do allow me to refer to my Huntington during lunch so that I may get the name of that study.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Tim St.Pauli

I don't get to talk to Americans in "old Europe" like Mr.Rumsfeld put it, but all the 20 people I met in the last months and I talked to in online chats or forums said that they are voting for Kerry. So how can that be?

Because many of the republican states are not living in present time. I mean they've done away with the horse and buggy in just about all 50 states (not sure about Alabama), but they're still living in the 30's - 40's in the way they think and live. So where do you think the people are that you are chatting with on the internet and where do you think the people are from that you would bump in-to in Germany? --> Democratic states.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Tim St.Pauli

I don't get to talk to Americans in "old Europe" like Mr.Rumsfeld put it, but all the 20 people I met in the last months and I talked to in online chats or forums said that they are voting for Kerry. So how can that be?

Because many of the republican states are not living in present time. I mean they've done away with the horse and buggy in just about all 50 states (not sure about Alabama), but they're still living in the 30's - 40's in the way they think and live. So where do you think the people are that you are chatting with on the internet and where do you think the people are from that you would bump in-to in Germany? --> Democratic states.

[beachesl]

Sweet article of promise from : http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1343156,00.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How soccer is eating America

The rest of the world has been worried for some time that America will try and change soccer. The truth is that soccer is changing America, writes Steven Wells.

Thursday November 4, 2004

So I'm in a superdupermarket in suburban Pennsylvania and I'm staring in amused horror at a couple of middle-aged consumers sat in the cafeteria. They have their heads bowed and their hands clenched and are saying grace over a couple of slices of cold pizza. "Look!" I titter-whisper, pointing at the freak show. My American companions blink at me. They see nothing odd or strange or even remarkable. I'm the freak here.

"America is not the world," warbled Morrissey, the Lord Voldemort of pop. But America begs to differ. Most Americans (who are always stunned to learn that anywhere else does anything differently) consider their surreal wonderland - packed as it is with God-bothering gun-nuttery, soulless strip malls, mind-blinding ad saturation and froth-gobbed patriotism - to be the norm. The USA is the standard by which all other countries (especially the Europeans, with their crazy atheism, lunatic welfare states and bizarre handgun bans) must be judged. Not for nothing did the GIs in Vietnam refer to the USA as "the world".

And now and then this bites the visitor in the ass. Like when sports commentators refer to the Boston Red Sox as "world champions". Or when my friend, Dan The John Travolta Lookalike American Sports Fan, starts talking about the movie Miracle - which tells the tale of the US ice hockey team's famous victory over the USSR in the 1980 Winter Olympics.

That, says Dan, was the most glorious and famous result in the history of sports.

I tell him I've never heard of it. Dan is stunned. I tell him I'm pretty sure that almost nobody outside of North America has heard of it either. Dan is shocked. I tell him that aside from a handful of soccer and basketball players, hardly anybody outside the USA would be able to name a single current US team sports player.

And Dan starts laughing. Now he knows I'm taking the piss, the way the English always do. But I'm not. Globalisation has taken American movies, clothes, music, soft drinks and fast food to the four corners of the earth. But now globalisation has come home - and bitten American team sports in the padded, over-evolved and steroid-swollen ass.

This is the story of how the United States Of America - having won a hot war against fascism and a cold war against communism - is being slowly but surely eaten alive from the inside by socialist soccer. America's homegrown sports, like the genetically unique fauna of some long-isolated island, have no natural defences against the soccer plague. And - like the Dodo, the Tasmanian Tiger and the Passenger Pigeon - baseball, basketball and gridiron are all doomed to extinction.

The evidence is everywhere; every suburb of every city in America is dotted with soccer pitches. In many communities gridiron has ceased to exist as a youth sport. When baseball legend Joe DiMaggio died in 1999, newspapers across the US carried the same cartoon. It showed an empty baseball diamond and asked, "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?" And a little boy kicking a soccer ball across the deserted pitcher's mound provided the answer. In some towns the voters are actually calling for higher taxes - to build more soccer pitches. From sea to shining sea, the USA is succumbing to soccer.

It's like coca-colonialisation in reverse. Barely a week goes by without a local paper somewhere in America reporting that yet another high school has abandoned gridiron in favour of the beautiful game.

The inevitable anti-soccer backlash has been as savage as it has been futile. High-falutin' neo-cons intellectuals and knuckle-dragging internet boo-boys have combined to claim that soccer is inherently gay, feminine and communistic.

I think they're right. The rest of the world has been worried for some time that America will try and change soccer. The truth is that soccer is changing America. Socialist soccerphiles should take heart. The Presidential election does not tell the whole story. Inside the snorting, steroid-swollen, padded and armoured behemoth of George Bush's America - there's a gayer, girlier and more socialist America struggling to get out. And, (like John Kerry), it plays soccer.

[beachesl]

Sweet article of promise from : http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1343156,00.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How soccer is eating America

The rest of the world has been worried for some time that America will try and change soccer. The truth is that soccer is changing America, writes Steven Wells.

Thursday November 4, 2004

So I'm in a superdupermarket in suburban Pennsylvania and I'm staring in amused horror at a couple of middle-aged consumers sat in the cafeteria. They have their heads bowed and their hands clenched and are saying grace over a couple of slices of cold pizza. "Look!" I titter-whisper, pointing at the freak show. My American companions blink at me. They see nothing odd or strange or even remarkable. I'm the freak here.

"America is not the world," warbled Morrissey, the Lord Voldemort of pop. But America begs to differ. Most Americans (who are always stunned to learn that anywhere else does anything differently) consider their surreal wonderland - packed as it is with God-bothering gun-nuttery, soulless strip malls, mind-blinding ad saturation and froth-gobbed patriotism - to be the norm. The USA is the standard by which all other countries (especially the Europeans, with their crazy atheism, lunatic welfare states and bizarre handgun bans) must be judged. Not for nothing did the GIs in Vietnam refer to the USA as "the world".

And now and then this bites the visitor in the ass. Like when sports commentators refer to the Boston Red Sox as "world champions". Or when my friend, Dan The John Travolta Lookalike American Sports Fan, starts talking about the movie Miracle - which tells the tale of the US ice hockey team's famous victory over the USSR in the 1980 Winter Olympics.

That, says Dan, was the most glorious and famous result in the history of sports.

I tell him I've never heard of it. Dan is stunned. I tell him I'm pretty sure that almost nobody outside of North America has heard of it either. Dan is shocked. I tell him that aside from a handful of soccer and basketball players, hardly anybody outside the USA would be able to name a single current US team sports player.

And Dan starts laughing. Now he knows I'm taking the piss, the way the English always do. But I'm not. Globalisation has taken American movies, clothes, music, soft drinks and fast food to the four corners of the earth. But now globalisation has come home - and bitten American team sports in the padded, over-evolved and steroid-swollen ass.

This is the story of how the United States Of America - having won a hot war against fascism and a cold war against communism - is being slowly but surely eaten alive from the inside by socialist soccer. America's homegrown sports, like the genetically unique fauna of some long-isolated island, have no natural defences against the soccer plague. And - like the Dodo, the Tasmanian Tiger and the Passenger Pigeon - baseball, basketball and gridiron are all doomed to extinction.

The evidence is everywhere; every suburb of every city in America is dotted with soccer pitches. In many communities gridiron has ceased to exist as a youth sport. When baseball legend Joe DiMaggio died in 1999, newspapers across the US carried the same cartoon. It showed an empty baseball diamond and asked, "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?" And a little boy kicking a soccer ball across the deserted pitcher's mound provided the answer. In some towns the voters are actually calling for higher taxes - to build more soccer pitches. From sea to shining sea, the USA is succumbing to soccer.

It's like coca-colonialisation in reverse. Barely a week goes by without a local paper somewhere in America reporting that yet another high school has abandoned gridiron in favour of the beautiful game.

The inevitable anti-soccer backlash has been as savage as it has been futile. High-falutin' neo-cons intellectuals and knuckle-dragging internet boo-boys have combined to claim that soccer is inherently gay, feminine and communistic.

I think they're right. The rest of the world has been worried for some time that America will try and change soccer. The truth is that soccer is changing America. Socialist soccerphiles should take heart. The Presidential election does not tell the whole story. Inside the snorting, steroid-swollen, padded and armoured behemoth of George Bush's America - there's a gayer, girlier and more socialist America struggling to get out. And, (like John Kerry), it plays soccer.

[G-Man]

100,000 dead Iraqi's.

Enough said.

[G-Man]

100,000 dead Iraqi's.

Enough said.

[Cheeta]

Nice find, Beachesl.

Have to admit I've been following the US election with obsene delight. It's a fasinating, full contact, sport. And for reality TV, (from the outside) it looks as stupid, staged, and scenseless as all that other reality TV tripe which consists of oh-so-many twits who'll do anything and everything to get their 15 minutes of fame on any low budget show which'll have them. But it has it's entertainment value. Turn your brain off and get into it.

Couple of small thoughts.

Not a chance Canada will ever send troops to Iraq under a Bush regime. So the good news is we're off the hook on that one now. He felt he could go it alone and since Bush and all his plans are infallible, he can. Have fun guys.

I though you American guys were just starting to pay off some of Reagan's bills and now you got a whole fresh bunch (oh and much, much more to come) of Little Georges. Good news is it'll keep Canada's dollar high.

Just tiny bits of 10 thousand thoughts. But the last one is an admition that there is no way Canadian's are any smarter. Fu'k, we re-elected Mulroney.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Just tiny bits of 10 thousand thoughts. But the last one is an admition that there is no way Canadian's are any smarter. Fu'k, we re-elected Mulroney.

And the Liberals.

You should note that we might not have the econoic boom we have if it wasn't for the Canada-US free trade agreement. That was the only issue in the 1988 election that put Mulroney back in.

[Montry]

[Bangoutoforder]

How can a news publication so obviously live up to the reputation of the elite as being undemocratic?

[Bangoutoforder]

Say what you want about good ol' Brian but he must be a blast to drink beers with.

You guys watch that reality crap? I'm living proof that cultural snobbery does indeed infect American conservatives and does not limit itself to San Francisco, Palos Verdes, Cambridge and Manhattan. PBS, a bit of BBC, some HBO, the History Channel, EWTN and some occasional porn does it for me.

I am, by the way, by no means a scorched-earth Republican. I'm of the slightly liberal New England variety (Chaffee, York, Weicker,etc; I didn't inherit as much as them, though).

[red card]

Bushie's win is the triumph of belief over facts. They're basically in blissful certitude.

It is the 5 G's that helped him out: God, gays, guns, grizzlies, & greed.

[Cheeta]

Chowderh! Chowderh! Say it! Chowderh!

But I digress...

Mulroney goverments and Free Trade. Bait. Maybe I'll nibble just a little.

That any goverment would encourage greater economic dependence on another state whilst advocating political independance is either misleading, nieve, or mad.

That any goverment would run up nearly 300 billions in dept during one of the greatest periods of economic growth in Canadian history, a large part of which occured pre-free trade, and used this massive dept to consciously tie the hands of post-Mulroney goverments into a conservative fiscal agenda for decades to come is either criminal, lucky, or sinister.

Mulroney and all he touched can rot. I'd give both my arms if today, in this country we had a federal dept matching what Trudeau left behind.

Hell, if we'd at least gotten something for all that cash and whoring to the US greenback. Oh something else that is besides a bunch of richer Mulroney toadies.

So there.

[Bangoutoforder]

quote:Originally posted by red card

Bushie's win is the triumph of belief over facts. They're basically in blissful certitude.

It is the 5 G's that helped him out: God, gays, guns, grizzlies, & greed.

I am a practicing Roman Catholic and I'm not really comfortable with either the constant evocation of the Big Guy or with American patriotic rhetoric being elevated to religion.

If gays want to get married, they can go for it. It's cool to see people happy.

I believe in gun control.

I am for a fair tax code and repulsed by the culture of aggression that is part of the nasty edge of the freewheeling economy.

My conservatism is based on my belief in the unifying power of sharing certain cultural values. At its core, America is Anglo-Protestant in its most englightened sense. I am Irlando-Catholic but our people have demonstrated that in assimilation lies success.

Tension is inevitable in a multiethnic society especially one in which people are encouraged to assert rights. But rather than assail WASP values as flawed and sinful, we should find common grounds in the ones that we can comfortably and realistically share.

I see the Democrats as too eager to encourage and exploit inter-ethnic tension. For that reason, I left them .

[Bangoutoforder]

I am also an internationalist.

[Grizzly]

quote:I'd give both my arms if today, in this country we had a federal dept matching what Trudeau left behind.

quote:But the last one is an admition that there is no way Canadian's are any smarter. Fu'k, we re-elected Mulroney.

Trudeau is basically the father of the Canadian national debt. While I think he did a lot of good things our historians often fail to recognize that he did them on other people's money, the budgets of future governments and the taxes of young Canadians. It is easy to achieve great policies if you don't have to pay for them. Mulroney basically continued this policy of deficit financing. It could be argued that we got more substantial benefits from Trudeau's debt than Mulroney's but one also has to recognize that a large part of Mulroney's debt can be attributed to the payments he had to make on the debt he inherited from Trudeau. As far as reelection goes it must be recognized that Mulroney's first term was far more successful than the second and that the corruption was not apparent (much of it only occured in the 2nd term) to the electorate in the reelection campaign during the election as Bush's was. Even the worst incidents of the Mulroney government don't compare to the corruption of the Bush regime. The crucial difference is when the Canadian voters were aware of the misdeeds of the Conservatives they trounced them out of office while the Americans voted for four more years of the same. Canadians might not be more intelligent than Americans but as a whole we are certainly far more educated and knowledgable of the world (as are the citizens of most western countries).

quote:Guys, I hate to say it, but the kind of setentious and mocking argumentation in which some have engaged in what was this polite discussion is the what turns people off against so-called liberals. To express incredulity at an election result sadly lives up to the reputation that many strident liberals have of being anti-democratic.

quote: How can a news publication so obviously live up to the reputation of the elite as being undemocratic?

The only anti-democratic voice I hear in this is yours. This is a free forum and people (the Daily Mirror as well) are able to voice their opinions as they like. Noone has stated that the Americans didn't have the right to reelect Bush only that they were stupid to do so. We are free to criticize the choice of the American people and the so-called American "democracy" without worry about offending the sensibilities of Republicans or fitting into their stereotype of liberals. The Republicans have been very effective in promulgating a false stereotype of liberal democrat "elites" through their control of the "non-free" media. In fact most Americans believe their own media is a liberal conspiracy when in fact the majority of media is controlled by large corporations who support the Republican party. From Canada with access to Canadian news and the BBC as well as US it is easy to see how biased the American media is. You are trying to suppress debate to your own liking by trying to scare other posters into not posting in the manner they choose.

Lest you think I am self-righteous and only criticizing the US, believe me I have criticisms of all of the countries in which I have lived (Canada, US, Germany, Russia). However, in my opinion, things in the US are far worse than in either Canada and Germany and don't even compare favourably to Russia in many categories (Russian media may not be free but is still better than US, the general education and level of world awareness is far higher). Even the level of democracy in Russia I would put at par with the US and they have only had 10 years of democracy and don't proclaim themselves as the greatest democracy in the world. I am no supporter of Putin but would choose him as Canadian prime minister before Bush, he is smarter, more competent and no more undemocratic or corrupt than Bush. Nor do I support the Democratic party which personally disgusts me. It only looks decent in comparison to the alternative. Analysis of their current policies actually reveals them to be far to the right of the Canadian Conservative Party. I recently read an American analysis of the policies of Conservative Party leader, Stephen Harper, that stated were he in American politics he would be a left wing leader if he retained the same policy beliefs. The US is ruled by two mafias, like Nadar said a two party dictatorship.

quote:It is the 5 G's that helped him out: God, gays, guns, grizzlies, & greed.

As a Grizzly myself what are we doing as the fourth G? The other G's I agree with but explain the 4th, you are at risk of offending grizzlies the world over.

Bush claims that he is not playing with American lives (doesn't have to make this claim about Iraqi lives because very few Americans seem to give a rat's ass about the Iraqi death toll) and that the military tactics are not politically motivated. Anyone surprised that now the election is over the Fallujah offensive appears ready to begin? Don't want to risk a lot of American deaths during the reelection campaign.

[Desigol]

quote:Originally posted by Montry

The Northern Ireland edition of the Mirror had a different picture of Dubya. All my American Online Contacts, bar one Girl on AOL, voted for Kerry. Ah well, Go Hilary in 2008.

[Desigol]

quote:Originally posted by Montry

The Northern Ireland edition of the Mirror had a different picture of Dubya. All my American Online Contacts, bar one Girl on AOL, voted for Kerry. Ah well, Go Hilary in 2008.

[red card]

quote:As a Grizzly myself what are we doing as the fourth G? The other G's I agree with but explain the 4th, you are at risk of offending grizzlies the world over.

Actually, it refers to them being anti-environment. Apparently, 25 grizzlies were introduced in a Utah area, which got everyone up in arms in Utah. They blamed it on the typical East Coast liberal do-gooders meddling in their state for no good reason

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by Desigol

n Ireland edition of the Mirror had a different picture of Dubya. All my American Online Contacts, bar one Girl on AOL, voted for Kerry. Ah well, Go Hilary in 2008.

Funny you should mention that. I've spoken to many Americans over the last week. Not one of them voted for Bush.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by torontosupport

Funny you should mention that. I've spoken to many Americans over the last week. Not one of them voted for Bush.

*yawn* I've already went thru this. People who voted for Bush are too busy praising the (non-existent) Lord, too busy buying Lotto tickets, too busy at the Off-Track Betting joint, too busy having sex with their cousins, too busy growing a mustache, driving their pickup truck, shooting beer cans off a tree trunk.... there're not talking to you on the internet...

That being said, we all know that if Bush was Canadian and ran for Canadian Prime Minister he'd probably win. Too many red-necks up there too... I mean in spite of Bush's incompetence the American economy is still leaps and bounds better than Canada's ... guess why? ... yup cuz Canada has had like 5 Bush's.

I love Canada but at the same time I'm a big advocate of the brain-drain. You gotta pay your people what they're worth. to anybody with a university degree in Canada: what are you still doing up there? You could make 50% more starting tomorrow by doing the same kinda-work in the States thanx to the NAFTA.... and you don't have to hear about the bloody Maple Leafs choking every single year .... most peole think you need a VISA ... nope ... you'll thank me later...