Is a Cnd. League a CSA responsibility? Yes or No?

[Robert]

Should the CSA have any role in helping facilitate the establishment of a national soccer league? It is my opinion that they do not want to shoulder any of the organizing, or financing responsibilities. However, when attempts are started, they appear to think they have some god given rights to govern and tax the new enterprise. Just look at their constitution. All sorts of membership fees to be collected, plus they want to pull all the important strings. Now are they in, or are they out? Or is it both, were the candles gets burned at both ends?

[Bxl Boy]

No hestiation : YES !

[Bxl Boy]

No hestiation : YES !

[TOareaFan]

I agree. In every major soccer country (that I know of) there is a sometimes symbiotic sometimes confrontational relationship between "the league" representing the business end of things and "the association" representing the governing/regulatory body of the sport.

In England (and others) the matter is further complicated with the evolution of "splinter" groups like the Premiership. Now there is that group looking after the financial success of the top 20 teams, the league looking after the other 72 and the association looking after the good of the game.

There must be a role for something like the CSA. That being said, they also need to understand and create an environment that gives any league a reasonable "best" shot at business success.

[TOareaFan]

I agree. In every major soccer country (that I know of) there is a sometimes symbiotic sometimes confrontational relationship between "the league" representing the business end of things and "the association" representing the governing/regulatory body of the sport.

In England (and others) the matter is further complicated with the evolution of "splinter" groups like the Premiership. Now there is that group looking after the financial success of the top 20 teams, the league looking after the other 72 and the association looking after the good of the game.

There must be a role for something like the CSA. That being said, they also need to understand and create an environment that gives any league a reasonable "best" shot at business success.

[argh1]

Here I go again . The CSA is a governing or sanctioning body . If and when the market place demands pro leagues they will happen. You can't artifically set up pro leagues . The demand has to come from the bottom up not the top down .

That being said the CSA has a role in the minor and amateur levels and at the pro levels to safe guard the integrity of the game ( so to speak ).

But private business will decide when pro leagues will happen based on consumer demand. The CSA's role will only be that the rules of the game are followed and to protect Canadian vested interest in the game .

So yes to some areas of responsibility but no to the business of the pro game . Confused yet.

[Daniel]

Look at Australia's newest plan. I doubt the individual teams could have negotiated this. A national association has to put itself in the role of a league office BEFORE a league office is created.

[DoyleG]

Daniel,

What the big hurdle was to the new Australian League was that club teams wanted autonomy from the ASA in matters of running the league.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Look at Australia's newest plan. I doubt the individual teams could have negotiated this. A national association has to put itself in the role of a league office BEFORE a league office is created.

I can see what you're getting at and yes now that you say it maybe there is a role for the CSA to be a facilitator to bring interests to-gether . But consumer demand will still be the driving force behind our long road in the evolution of the pro game in Canada.

[G-Man]

As a rec player I pay fees to the CSA to fund our national teams. I don't want those fees directed at a private enterprise. They can raise their own money and run it and if it fails....that's life.

No need for the CSA to prop it up or get the ball rolling.

[fishman]

What the CSA should do is liaise with the provincial associations to establish youth leagues that better assist in the development of elite players.

If this country is to improve its international standing, the first place to look is our youth programs. Indeed, we need a professional league. But one of the unfortunate realities we face is the lack of a deep pool of players who can honestly compete at the professional level, and attract the attention of devoted soccer followers.

If the CSA were to step in and back a league somewhat like the Super-Y across Canada, I believe it would be making a more long-term contribution to its National team programs than would its endorsement / financial backing of a professional league.

We already see the National Club Championships contested at the Tier 1 U14, 16 and 18 levels. However, most clubs that reach this stage have not had the benefit of competing against quality competition week in, week out. Most Tier 1 youth leagues see one or two elite teams play against weakened opposition. That helps no one.

Have a seasonal qualifying tournament to establish which teams make the grade in each province / jurisdiction. Play the season, with the winning team in each league set to compete in a national tournament.

Some of the big issues in player development include opportunities to compete against the best possible opposition on an abiding basis and exposure to quality coaching. Further, by grouping the more competitive teams together, CSA staff coaches would have a better chance to scout and select players for National Training Centre programs.

The creation of a professional league would be great, but let's look at some of the fundamental issues involved in our weakened program...we do not produce enough quality players to support a top-flight NT or professional league. Fans are not daft...they know a good product when they see it.

Support youth players and provide better competitive environments before throwing good money after bad on a national professional league.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by fishman

What the CSA should do is liaise with the provincial associations to establish youth leagues that better assist in the development of elite players.

If this country is to improve its international standing, the first place to look is our youth programs. Indeed, we need a professional league. But one of the unfortunate realities we face is the lack of a deep pool of players who can honestly compete at the professional level, and attract the attention of devoted soccer followers.

If the CSA were to step in and back a league somewhat like the Super-Y across Canada, I believe it would be making a more long-term contribution to its National team programs than would its endorsement / financial backing of a professional league.

We already see the National Club Championships contested at the Tier 1 U14, 16 and 18 levels. However, most clubs that reach this stage have not had the benefit of competing against quality competition week in, week out. Most Tier 1 youth leagues see one or two elite teams play against weakened opposition. That helps no one.

Have a seasonal qualifying tournament to establish which teams make the grade in each province / jurisdiction. Play the season, with the winning team in each league set to compete in a national tournament.

Some of the big issues in player development include opportunities to compete against the best possible opposition on an abiding basis and exposure to quality coaching. Further, by grouping the more competitive teams together, CSA staff coaches would have a better chance to scout and select players for National Training Centre programs.

The creation of a professional league would be great, but let's look at some of the fundamental issues involved in our weakened program...we do not produce enough quality players to support a top-flight NT or professional league. Fans are not daft...they know a good product when they see it.

Support youth players and provide better competitive environments before throwing good money after bad on a national professional league.

I don't believe for one second that Canada does not have the talent for a national league.

We had the talent 10-15 years ago, and Canada is light years ahead in player development.

Montreal and Vancouver are currently on par with MLS clubs (minus a couple of big name imports).

If you followed the CSL, you would have noticed how each season the talent grew by leaps and bounds. It was an ideal league that developed the likes of many great players in Europe. Radzinski would not be in Europe if not for the CSL and North York Rockets. (I tell people today how I used to watch Thomaz, and they don't believe me!)

The CSL was premature and raw. A new Canadian League would (hopefully!) have an actual business plan, plus the advantage of already having 3 well established clubs in our biggest markets.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I don't believe for one second that Canada does not have the talent for a national league.

We had the talent 10-15 years ago, and Canada is light years ahead in player development.

Montreal and Vancouver are currently on par with MLS clubs (minus a couple of big name imports).

If you followed the CSL, you would have noticed how each season the talent grew by leaps and bounds. It was an ideal league that developed the likes of many great players in Europe. Radzinski would not be in Europe if not for the CSL and North York Rockets. (I tell people today how I used to watch Thomaz, and they don't believe me!)

The CSL was premature and raw. A new Canadian League would (hopefully!) have an actual business plan, plus the advantage of already having 3 well established clubs in our biggest markets.

We have three established professional soccer clubs in Canada and if they are to form the backbone of a Canadian league they need to enter into an Association. As the CSA continually reneged on taking this responsibility on, they should not interfer with any enterprise willing to engage in what would amount to the most monumental undertaking in Canadian soccer history. Clubs are seperate entities in the business of operating soccer clubs, not a soccer league as that would create a majoe conflict of interest. A seperate business entity is required to organize a league for teams who wish to join. As the scope of the CSA continually diminishes, as a result of their incompetent management of the Nation Teams and their unwillingness to get involve in getting a national league up and running, needs to be recognized by all who are interested in the welfare of Canadian soccer. Unfortunately, we have a national governing body which is weak and accomplishes little. They better enjoy what they have, while they still have it, because the winds of change are starting to prevail.

[G-Man]

"winds of change are starting to prevail"

Robert,

Explain....in detail.

[Guest Ed]

Well Pipe himself stated that the MLS option is the CSA's TOP PRIORITY a week or so ago, so I would guess they don't have time to do sweet dick about a Cdn league.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I don't believe for one second that Canada does not have the talent for a national league.

Well, I don't see any evidence that there is the talent to form a national league that will provide better quality of play than what we have now with the a-league. I am assuming that, by a national league, you mean a CSL type league with at least 8 teams. There were five teams in the a-league last season, one won the championship, the second team almost made it to the finals, another team missed the playoffs and the last two were near the bottom. Given that the rest of competition consists of div 2 level profesionals from the US, I therefore see no evidence that we have the depth in talent to form that type of league (ie.: CSL style)that will improve our international competitiveness. Unless the level of operation is solid enough fiancially to repatriate 90% of of our overseas talent and can attract some quality international talent. You know that that won't be possible. Its been a few years now since the CSL ceased to exist and one can easily forget what the games were like or be tempted to romanticize about the league beacuse there were only canadian clubs. But, even though I followed the games quite closely on TSN, and seen a few live at CCR ( and even one game at Esther shiner stadium), I recall the games as very poor in quality compared to the NASL. It was a humongous drop. So much so that the ripples were bound to affect our National teams. And it did IMO.

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

We had the talent 10-15 years ago, and Canada is light years ahead in player development.

Montreal and Vancouver are currently on par with MLS clubs (minus a couple of big name imports).

If you followed the CSL, you would have noticed how each season the talent grew by leaps and bounds. It was an ideal league that developed the likes of many great players in Europe. Radzinski would not be in Europe if not for the CSL and North York Rockets. (I tell people today how I used to watch Thomaz, and they don't believe me!)

The CSL did have players like Radzinski, Peschisolido and DeVos but one could argue that these players developed at places like Germinal Ekeren, Darlington, and Dundee United. If just getting to europe is what you measure as success, then you could argue that the A-league has done much better (eg.: Stalteri, Hutchinson, Bernier, ). Furthermore, DeRo ( another ex a-leaguer) has done well and he didn't go to Europe.

I don't see how the likes of Sutton would have gotten any better by facing opposing teams that are even further watered in talent (eg.: CSL type format)than what they are currently playing in. You can't just look at getting to europe as a the measure of success, its where in europe you are going and with which clubs. So I don't buy that "talent factory" tag that you have put on the Lynx. Yes, they have developed some good players but for the most part, the reason that many of their players have ended up in europe is because they ( unlike the Impact for example) sell them cheap. And, there is no evidence that, from a development standpoint, that playing in Scandinavia is better than the a-league. Reagrding the CSL, some players in that league were former CIAU players and I don't see how playing in an environment where the season lasts from sept to Nov prepares you for a pro career in soccer.

Regarding MLS, I just received from Rogers a free 3 month trial sevice for the digital channells which includes FSWC. So for the past three weekends, I have had a chance to see more MLS games. Could Montreal and Vancouver compete against MLS sides? I don't know. But the quality on display in the playoff games has been pretty impressive and I have seen a lot of a-league games live and even saw one or two on TV. Visually, the MLS holds up pretty well to many other competitions shown on FSWC. Unfortunately I cannot say that about many a-league games that I saw. The Lynx versus Calgary game was one I couldn't attend but ended up watching on TV. The gap in quality of play looked very vast between the recent MLS games on FSWC and my recollection of that mid season clash of canadian clubs.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Here I go again . The CSA is a governing or sanctioning body . If and when the market place demands pro leagues they will happen. You can't artifically set up pro leagues . The demand has to come from the bottom up not the top down .

That being said the CSA has a role in the minor and amateur levels and at the pro levels to safe guard the integrity of the game ( so to speak ).

But private business will decide when pro leagues will happen based on consumer demand. The CSA's role will only be that the rules of the game are followed and to protect Canadian vested interest in the game .

So yes to some areas of responsibility but no to the business of the pro game . Confused yet.

When you talk about the CSA's responsibily of safe-gaurding the integrity of the game, you hit a sensitive nerve of mine. In their participation in international competition, the CSA adheres to FIFA's laws of the game. However, in a club aspect, the CSA diviates from these rules and we get subjected to things like a shoot-out where a player has a time limit to score and the goalie can come out off his line. This has nothing to do with the FIFA game and is based on the assumption of Canadian and especially American governing bodies dictating that the public prevailing attitude in North America does not support tie games. So Joe Fan gets accustomed to these matches and when the National Team competes in FIFA competitions he gets confused and frustrated. Thus the CSA has not protected the integrity of the game, but rather compromised it based on what they think the Canadian (North American) fans should receive. It would be my personal preference to have a Canadian League adhere to the same rules FIFA uses in League senarios.

[Kelly]

Freekick is right on the money. The NASL was a great league. I remember the CSL and it can't compare. The Impact would not have beaten the Manic teams. And the MLS is also a much better than the A-league.

The NASL also mor eimportantly brought in allot of foreign influence into our soccer community. Which was good. A new CSL would be local in content and that would be a step back. You need to be challenged. You cannot be inbred. AND You need to send out best to the best to train = Send our best to Europe to train.

And yes- it is a very romantic idea that we should all marry the girl next door and live happily ever after. But most of us leave the street we grew up on ,and see that their are many better looking and much smarter women out there than our cousins.

Going to a CSL game would be like kissing your sister. Why bother when you can date supermodels.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

When you talk about the CSA's responsibily of safe-gaurding the integrity of the game, you hit a sensitive nerve of mine. In their participation in international competition, the CSA adheres to FIFA's laws of the game. However, in a club aspect, the CSA diviates from these rules and we get subjected to things like a shoot-out where a assumption of Canadian and especially American governing bodies player has a time limit to score and the goalie can come out off his line. This has nothing to do with the FIFA game and is based on the dictating that the public prevailing attitude in North America does not support tie games. So Joe Fan gets accustomed to these matches and when the National Team competes in FIFA competitions he gets confused and frustrated. Thus the CSA has not protected the integrity of the game, but rather compromised it based on what they think the Canadian (North American) fans should receive. It would be my personal preference to have a Canadian League adhere to the same rules FIFA uses in League senarios.

Are you suggesting that the CSA doesn't ensure club soccer in Canada isn't always played by FIFA rules ? Well what a dastardly comment of our CSA not living up to their responsibilities . How could they be expected to do that? What with another major press conference coming up in 2 - three years where they can ride the coat tails of some-one else. Where would they ever find time to actually see how the game is beeing played? GAWD love 'em our vigilante CSA.

[Michael Crampton]

The answer has to be an emphatic yes. Please note as well that the original question did not specify that the league had to be pro. Rugby Canada has gotten a Canadian league going... the fact that the CSA can't pull it off is an embarassment. Also, simply letting the market dictate is asking for the impossible.

Mike.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

The answer has to be an emphatic yes. Please note as well that the original question did not specify that the league had to be pro. Rugby Canada has gotten a Canadian league going... the fact that the CSA can't pull it off is an embarassment. Also, simply letting the market dictate is asking for the impossible.

Mike.

Astute observation. An amateur league as opposed to no league. FIFA has never segregated the two at World Cup tournaments. The motto has generally been, "Send us your best. We don't care if you pay them or not." I think an amateur league would naturally result in a younger batch of players as well.

[G-Man]

Calling the Rugby League a league is funny. They play a 6 game season. The players play on local clubs teams when they don't play one of the SIX games. That's 3 home games 3 road games. No one gets paid. I wonder what that costs? 10K a team.

So I guess all you guys would love for a Canada soccer league. A 6 game Amateur league. Talk about lowering the bar. Why not just go skins vs shirts. But you could easly get all the team scarves and head to the local pub and feel proud.

AND then listen to the Cure and feel very hip. Close your eyes and you're almost in the midlands.

Robert:

The CSA gets it's funds from kids soccer. Where will the CSA get it's cash from to front a league and then to support teams that go tits up? It has no mandate to. I see no reason why 8 year olds should pay for semi-pro 25 years to play. Where else is it done?

And found this out.

FIFA does not allow extensive adverting of international games. This works great in Europe where the games sell themselves, but not here. The FA spends the same on pre game adversting as the CSA does. It's just over there- people know where the game is. Here they don't care. And of course the media sells the product. AND that's what soccer is-- a product. And FIFA expects the CSA to "tax" canadian clubs.

So Robert. The CSA indeed does follows FIFA rules. AND it promotes the game as FIFA wants it promoted. So start attacking them as well.

How much do you think the CSA budget is? How much does it coast to run a single U-17 program year round???? To bring the Men to train for a week?

Titling at windmills.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Calling the Rugby League a league is funny. They play a 6 game season. The players play on local clubs teams when they don't play one of the SIX games. That's 3 home games 3 road games. No one gets paid. I wonder what that costs? 10K a team.

So I guess all you guys would love for a Canada soccer league. A 6 game Amateur league. Talk about lowering the bar. Why not just go skins vs shirts. But you could easly get all the team scarves and head to the local pub and feel proud.

AND then listen to the Cure and feel very hip. Close your eyes and you're almost in the midlands.

Robert:

The CSA gets it's funds from kids soccer. Where will the CSA get it's cash from to front a league and then to support teams that go tits up? It has no mandate to. I see no reason why 8 year olds should pay for semi-pro 25 years to play. Where else is it done?

And found this out.

FIFA does not allow extensive adverting of international games. This works great in Europe where the games sell themselves, but not here. The FA spends the same on pre game adversting as the CSA does. It's just over there- people know where the game is. Here they don't care. And of course the media sells the product. AND that's what soccer is-- a product. And FIFA expects the CSA to "tax" canadian clubs.

So Robert. The CSA indeed does follows FIFA rules. AND it promotes the game as FIFA wants it promoted. So start attacking them as well.

How much do you think the CSA budget is? How much does it coast to run a single U-17 program year round???? To bring the Men to train for a week?

Titling at windmills.

If money is (and it always is) an issue, then maybe it's time to review the budget. With the money available, are we spreading ourselves to thin by competing at all the levels we do? How much does it cost to send a team over to Thailand? If we have to make choices as to what we can do effectively, which ones do we pursue? Do we drop the Men's National Team in favor of the women's U19? Do we continue to compete at every levels on a shoe string, or do we give an all out effort in one or two evebts?

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

The answer has to be an emphatic yes. Please note as well that the original question did not specify that the league had to be pro. Rugby Canada has gotten a Canadian league going... the fact that the CSA can't pull it off is an embarassment. Also, simply letting the market dictate is asking for the impossible.

Mike.

Yeah , my point is for the pro game only . The best example I can think of at the moment would be If I loved water ping pong and had a gahzillion dollars I could start a league but even though I promoted the begeezus out of it and bought the worlds top players would enough folk show up to pay the bills .

So , how do we create interest enough to get folk to pay to see soccer on a regular basis . So starting a league with out consumer demand is impossible.

[G-Man]

It would be nice if PetroCan or someone dropped 3 million a year on the men's team. But that won't happen until the men start winning. And once the men start winning- well maybe there might be some interest in a 8 team pro league.

But how do we get that ball of hope rolling? That is definatly up to the CSA. Do we need a U-16 national team program? Can we simply put all our balls into the senior squads?

How many U-16's go on and make the U-20 team or the MNT? Does it serve it's purpose?

I don't know